Some Interesting Demographics

[atpollard]

If you really can't see that you're straining plausibility past the breaking point here, I don't see any prospect of convincing you otherwise by reasoned argument. So I'll just say that your arguments have failed to convince me and let it go at that.

Hans

People in the middle of nowhere consuming out of proportion to the local population?

White Sands: In July 1945, Las Cruces, New Mexico (pop 10,000) imported 300 railroad cars of V-2 rocket components for transfer to WSPG.
Manhattan Project: The town of Oak Ridge, Tennessee was created in 1942 and grew from a population of 3,000 to a peak of 75,000 (1945) and 20,000 today (2000) to support the K-25 uranium-separating facility (which covered 44 acres (18 ha) and was the largest building in the world at that time) operating continuously until recently (late 1980s).

Probable, no.
Possible, yes.
Plausible, YMMV.

[So don't roll your eyes at me and talk about "straining plausibility past the breaking point" when I suggest that it is possible for a small population to consume/produce far above what a typical town/city of that size might trade.] :rofl:

 

[Selandia]

We could be dealing with cultural obstacles. We still don't quite know how 30-billion people ended up on a desert planet while paradise worlds settled in the same era have only tens or hundreds of millions. Perhaps some religious or cultural belief, or a government reluctant to have its population tempted by offworld tech, discourages trade with neighbors. Sounds like one of the little clues we can use to flesh out Rethe.

Agreed, that is the point I am making. The GT trade system provide number that do not make spontaneous sense. The basic numbers here are exeptionnal result that must be justified, not the other way round as I respectfully believe it should be. No insult is intended to GT. "Systems" tend to make less sense as they reach the limits of their "domains". I decided that IMTU Rethe E Strprt was a inadequate designation.

As to the 30 billion stuck there, you are right on, that is a big question that nag me from day 1! It is more likely that anti immigration laws at the receiving end is the problem, even if you are free to leave.

have fun

Selandia

 

[HG_B]

Agreed, that is the point I am making. The GT trade system provide number that do not make spontaneous sense. The basic numbers here are exeptionnal result that must be justified, not the other way round as I respectfully believe it should be. No insult is intended to GT. "Systems" tend to make less sense as they reach the limits of their "domains". I decided that IMTU Rethe E Strprt was a inadequate designation.

As to the 30 billion stuck there, you are right on, that is a big question that nag me from day 1! It is more likely that anti immigration laws at the receiving end is the problem, even if you are free to leave.

have fun

Selandia

How are 30 billion people even surviving on a desert world???

 

[Selandia]

Trade is a two-way street. It's the lowest population that dictates amount of trade you can have between two places.

:nonono: It is a many-many-many ways street where no specific bilateral trade need balancing but where the Sum of all trades (Goods, Services, Capital) on a multi world polymorphic market place balance.

The lowest pop dictate nothing just because its the lowest (although it is more likely to be the source of a bottleneck at some point Ok). Need, Capability, Mean of actions, Money (and more) are significant. If the buyer dictate the trade, since trade stop when his money stop, it is not a matter of Large or small pop. If it is the supply that run dry, it is not because Pop is Hi or Lo, but for any of many reasons. Design systems that are based on volume are for Port bureaucrats that have to move volumes, not Merchant Princes that are bond to translate anything in Credit for their Bank need Cr in payments. As to the Count having to weigh public benefit, ratio between cost / earning...Well lets keep thing shorts... a system like T4 Pocket empire using Ressource Units make more sense but is beyond ACS. damn design systems...

And interstellar trade has always been implied to be quite anemic. I won't put up much of a defense for FT's trade volumes, but it is the only source of actual numbers we have. Until something better comes along, anyway.


Hans

Yes, early on in my Traveller dealing I even wonder how it could exist and be profitable at all. Once you do find an answer to that first question, it is hard to pretend it is THAT anemic.

Until something better come I may use it if it does not waste my fun. When designing a Public starport D (on the Count's to list) I'll most likely will use GT and will give some credential to its cargo handling figures once I decide that X dt are the relevant trade volume for it.

Have fun

Selandia

 

[Vladika]

How are 30 billion people even surviving on a desert world???

I'm with you on that one. Rolling for world population, TL, and Starport have always seemed off to me.

You get to many high population, pathetic worlds and low TL with low class starports OR class A starports with next to no population. (Most annoying when you consider that they are supposed to have a serious shipyard capable of annual overhaul and SHIP building.)

 

[rancke]

People in the middle of nowhere consuming out of proportion to the local population?

Planetary populations buying stuff worth many, many times their GWP.

White Sands: In July 1945, Las Cruces, New Mexico (pop 10,000) imported 300 railroad cars of V-2 rocket components for transfer to WSPG.

Did they pay cash or by check?

Manhattan Project: The town of Oak Ridge, Tennessee was created in 1942 and grew from a population of 3,000 to a peak of 75,000 (1945) and 20,000 today (2000) to support the K-25 uranium-separating facility (which covered 44 acres (18 ha) and was the largest building in the world at that time) operating continuously until recently (late 1980s).

What point are you trying to make here?

[So don't roll your eyes at me and talk about "straining plausibility past the breaking point" when I suggest that it is possible for a small population to consume/produce far above what a typical town/city of that size might trade.] :rofl:

I'm afraid I can't oblige you by granting your request.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

[So don't roll your eyes at me and talk about "straining plausibility past the breaking point" when I suggest that it is possible for a small population to consume/produce far above what a typical town/city of that size might trade.] :rofl:

Except. It WASN'T a small population producing, funding nor consuming that. It was the ENTIRE population of the U.S.A. at the time.

LMAO

 

[rancke]

Except. It WASN'T a small population producing, funding nor consuming that. It was the ENTIRE population of the U.S.A. at the time.

LMAO

"Rolling, rolling; keep them eyeballs rolling..."


Hans

 

[atpollard]

What point are you trying to make here?

Throughout the Cold War, this town of 75,000 to 20,000 people processed yellow cake (imported radioactive ores), manufactured, and exported virtually all of the weapons grade uranium used in the ICBM program for the entire United States. Oak Ridge was not a sovereign nation, but it was part of a larger interdependent political entity. I do not know the average per capita GNP of the US or the average Income of a US household, nor do I know the per capita Gross Product of the town of Oak Ridge or the average household income of the residents of Oak Ridge, but I suspect that the total income of the town of Oak Ridge could not afford to import all of that yellow cake. Nor is it likely that they could collectively afford to pay for all of the machinery needed to weaponize the uranium. I also suspect that the value of all that weapons grade uranium far exceeds the revenue of a typical town of that size. Fortunately, they are part of a larger political entity, the United States.

The Imperium is a larger-than-one-planet political entity (not unlike the United States). It manufactures nuclear missiles (not unlike the Cold War ICBM program) with weapons grade uranium made from radioactive ores that must be processed somewhere, probably in a large facility. It seems reasonable to me (and you probably disagree) that the Imperium may have a several central processing facilities. The worlds that support those facilities will have imports and exports that reflect the needs of the greater Imperium rather than the local economy (just like Oak Ridge).

It was an example of a population whose GDP was linked to the economy of the Imperium as a whole rather than just the local population. I was drawing a parallel comparison between the relationship between cities-nations and worlds-imperium.

Imperial Navy Depots and Bases seem another candidate for a local GDP tied to the Imperium rather than just the planetary economy.

Scout Bases seem like yet another GDP booster.

The corporate HQ of a megacorporation might also boost local GDP (like he effect Walmart HQ has on Bentonville, Arkansas).

 

[atpollard]

Except. It WASN'T a small population producing, funding nor consuming that. It was the ENTIRE population of the U.S.A. at the time.

LMAO

Just like the Imperium.

 

[atpollard]

How are 30 billion people even surviving on a desert world???

From the other Rethe topic:

So a thought on population density ...

Starting with 1 square kilometer (roughly 250 acres).

Normal agriculture will support about 1 person per acre of farmland or about 250 people per square kilometer.

A 5 acre city block covered with a 60 story vertical farm will produce as much food as about 5000 acres of conventional farms. So 1 square kilometer of 60 story vertical farms will support about 250,000 people.

A mile high (about 260 to 520 story) structure is just barely possible at our current TL. Let's call that 8 times as tall as the 60 story vertical farm, or able to support about 2 million people per square kilometer.

26,000,000,000 people / 2,000,000 people per square kilometer = 13,000 square kilometers

If the planet has 13,000 square kilometers of land to build on (roughly the land area of Puerto Rico or half of Belgium), then all 26 billion people COULD live on the mainworld.

What actually "IS" on Rethe, is for you to decide for yourself; I am simply pointing out one technical possibility.

There is plenty of room and expensive produce.

 

[aramis]

Except. It WASN'T a small population producing, funding nor consuming that. It was the ENTIRE population of the U.S.A. at the time.

LMAO

Small populations can be the locus of some specific activity for a much larger overall population. Something like 25% of US oil population comes from Alaska... which has less than 1% of the national population. Hell, Seattle is bigger than all of Alaska for population, but the State of Alaska has a bigger budget than the CIty of Seattle. (not by bloody much, tho'. And much of Alaska's covers stuff the CIty of Seattle gets from the State of Washington.)

 

[HG_B]

Small populations can be the locus of activity for a much larger overall population.

That wasn't his point. The "locus" for that could have been 200 miles from that town where there was no pop. The POINT is the total pop and output of the society. In this case (the stat'ed world) a one government planet.

 

[HG_B]

Just like the Imperium.

Nope. You have a GROSS misunderstanding of the OTU

 

[atpollard]

Nope. You have a GROSS misunderstanding of the OTU

So on every world with an Imperial Naval Base, the local planetary economy supports the entire cost of operating the Naval Base?

Who pays for the construction of new Dreadnaughts?

If I am GROSSLY misunderstanding the OTU (a legitimate possibility), then enlighten me with the basic highlights for massive expenditures like Fleets and Bases.

[The small stuff will work itself out.]

[edit: For the record, I don't think that whatever specific piddling world of 1000 people we are examining is a secret mecca of Imperial production like any of the possibilities I have mentioned thus far. I simply disagree with the general attitude that a world of 1000 people cannot be the center of greater activity for the Imperium.]

 

[Vladika]

So on every world with an Imperial Naval Base, the local planetary economy supports the entire cost of operating the Naval Base?

An Imperial Naval Base is NOT solely funded by the system it revolves around a star with.

The cost of an Imperial Naval Base is born by the entire Empire. The Empire collects taxes/tribute from all of it's member worlds (and then some in all probability). From those collective taxes/tribute, the Empire takes a portion for the Imperial Navy budget. The Naval budget is then spent, in part, on funding any number of Naval Bases.

The world associated with the Imperial Naval Base does not, and can not, fund all of it's needs through local resources.

Who pays for the construction of new Dreadnaughts?

As above, it comes from the collective Naval budget, through the taxes/tribute of the entire Empire. (Reason suggests it doesn't have to be sent to Core and then resent outward again. It will be collected by regional sub levels of government and apportioned to Imperial projects and an accounting (less corruption) sent to Core.)

If I am GROSSLY misunderstanding the OTU (a legitimate possibility), then enlighten me with the basic highlights for massive expenditures like Fleets and Bases.

The above is my take. If you are "GROSSLY misunderstanding", then we are together in that exalted state.

Michael

 

[rancke]

So on every world with an Imperial Naval Base, the local planetary economy supports the entire cost of operating the Naval Base?

No, but a Naval Base with a personnel of a thousand isn't building 1000 ships at a time.[*]

[*] If they're smart they're not even building one, since they probably wouldn't have the defenses to prevent robbers from coming along and stealing such a highly portable chunk of wealth. But that's by the way.​

[edit: For the record, I don't think that whatever specific piddling world of 1000 people we are examining is a secret mecca of Imperial production like any of the possibilities I have mentioned thus far. I simply disagree with the general attitude that a world of 1000 people cannot be the center of greater activity for the Imperium.]

Greater, quite possible; so much greater as to be important to an economy of 26 billion people, no.


Hans

 

[aramis]

No, but a Naval Base with a personnel of a thousand isn't building 1000 ships at a time.[*]

[*] If they're smart they're not even building one, since they probably wouldn't have the defenses to prevent robbers from coming along and stealing such a highly portable chunk of wealth. But that's by the way.​

You're ignoring, perhaps intentionally, the possibility that automation is involved. Warbots for defense, manufacturing bots producing standardized designs....

as it is, the productivity of wet-naval shipyards is a couple orders of magnitude higher per man than it was in 1500... I would expect a similar set of gains.

 

[rancke]

You're ignoring, perhaps intentionally, the possibility that automation is involved. Warbots for defense, manufacturing bots producing standardized designs....

I am indeed. Completely intentionally. For one thing, I believe that acknowledging the practicality of automated factories on the larger scale would play havoc with Charted Space as we know it. For another, I don't think automated defenses capable of defeating intelligent attempts to circumvent them is a Traveller trope, so even if automated factories were practical, they would still be constructed in systems with populations large enough to have adequate system defenses "built in" so to speak, rather than in near-empty systems where any defenses would have to be furnished (and paid for) on top of the cost of the factories.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

[edit: For the record, I don't think that whatever specific piddling world of 1000 people we are examining is a secret mecca of Imperial production like any of the possibilities I have mentioned thus far. I simply disagree with the general attitude that a world of 1000 people cannot be the center of greater activity for the Imperium.]

The example cited was a world of BILLIONS with a nation of a couple hundred MILLION people with all the infrastructure close by to the "town" of a 1000 people. So, you are already shifting the goal posts. A sure sign that you lost the argument.