Some Interesting Demographics

[Selandia]

I assume you mean planetary corporations rather than megacorporations. Any such all-encompassing setup runs up against the problem that you need a prosperous population to sell stuff to. That sort of corporation can profit only by leeching off a much greater economy. For one thing, companies don't waste money on housing anyone that isn't working for them.

Leaching up a much greater economy? 30 billons is not enough in number? 3millions billionnaires, 3 billions millionnaire?

They dont waste money on housing those that do not work for the corp, they make money by renting dwelling to any takers, first and foremost those working for them

How do you know that? What do you base that assumption on? And if you're right, how do you explain belter societies where everyone, from the poorest pauper up, live in space habitats?.

Sci-fi consider belter canon, there is an assumption that the worker can carve out a good living from the belt. That is the explanation, not detailled economic.

See refutation of claim that tunnels will be significantly cheaper. (And doubt that they'd exist in sufficient numbers.)

I don't buy it. Even if the saving are small (and they wont) for the poor such saving will be significant. High end orbital habitat come with all the trimming for it will make no sense to pay that much and not have adequate lighting and grav plate (as an example). Your tunnel might not have grav plate and top of the line utilities because you can't afford non slum housing.

I don't understand this argument at all.

When you are poor, the ratio Shell/fitting is significant.

I suspect that you're somehow riffing on starship accomodation costs. Surely you don't think that living in a space habitat could possibly be that expensive? ..

GURP starport, the closest thing I know to a traveller space habitat design system have indeed inexpensive shell (about 8kcr for 25 tons) but says that accomodation is paid as stateroom with 8 time the space.

I refer you, once more, to the existence of belter communities where everybody lives in space habitats. Shionthy is a red zone, so its population certainly manages to live in space habitats at TL 8 without food imports...

They could, like the peoples of Rethe could. And as soon as red will be lifted they wont, they will start trading like the peoples of Rethe do

I never said everyone on Rethe would necessarily live in orbital habitats. I suggested most of them did, although I failed to mention that there would also be people living in the two belts..

Fine, one or two billions?

You could do the same with high-capacity dormitories in space habitats.

yes, that is mentionned in my housing study

Also, you seem to imagine that putting people in a disused tunnel with only a blanket to separate their living space is enough. If you do that, they'll just up and die on you. Rethe's atmosphere is not breathable. Any machinery you need to keep people alive on a space station you'll need equally well to keep them alive in a tunnel.
.

There is more to space habitat than ventilation. On the surface, or under, you just vent off used air and compress/filter some new one, for example. Everything is more complex in orbit.

Why not? We here on Earth are eating recycled remains of our dead ancestors and our neighbors' waste. Doesn't seem to upset most people.


Hans

My tomatoes may be grown from manure (my mushroom certainely) and we do not make a fuss, indeed. Still, it is not as crude as known extreme recycling. Furthermore, the argument remains: choice.

Have fun

Selandia

 

[rancke]

Leaching up a much greater economy? 30 billons is not enough in number? 3millions billionnaires, 3 billions millionnaire?

I'm saying your mining companies will only be a small segment of those 30 billions. Which brings us back to the question of how many disused tunnels suitable for being turned into habitats there are in the first place. Also, how many of those disused tunnels are within commuting distance of any job your poor person can earn enough money to pay his rent from?

Sci-fi consider belter canon, there is an assumption that the worker can carve out a good living from the belt. That is the explanation, not detailled economic.

It's not just Sci-Fi in general that assume that people can carve out a good living from a belt. Traveller makes the same assumption. Which was my point.

I don't buy it. Even if the saving are small (and they wont) for the poor such saving will be significant. High end orbital habitat come with all the trimming for it will make no sense to pay that much and not have adequate lighting and grav plate (as an example). Your tunnel might not have grav plate and top of the line utilities because you can't afford non slum housing.

Who says every part of a space habitat will be high-end? The minimum accomodation for really poor people seems to cost Cr1000 per year (Cost 10,000 to build, assume the rather expensive 10% of original cost to maintain from TCS (wich is almost certainly far too high).

GURP starport, the closest thing I know to a traveller space habitat design system have indeed inexpensive shell (about 8kcr for 25 tons) but says that accomodation is paid as stateroom with 8 time the space.

From page 103 of GT:Starports, a housing module can accomodate 200 people "in cramped conditions" (which still gives each person living in cramped conditions 50 spaces[*] each) and costs MCr1. Two farm modules serves as total life support for 200 people and costs MCr1. That's where I get the construction and maintenance costs I mention above.

[*] 1 GT space is one dT, right? Or am I misremembering and it's only half a dT?​

And frankly I don't see why you can't stuff more people into that housing module (necessitating mor farm modules, of course). Compared to the mining tunnels you describe it would still be far better accomodations.

They could, like the peoples of Rethe could. And as soon as red will be lifted they wont, they will start trading like the peoples of Rethe do.

But what do the people of Rethe trade for? It could be food, but it does not have to be. Maybe they want other stuff more than they want better food. Especially if they don't want to become dependent on food imports.

There is more to space habitat than ventilation. On the surface, or under, you just vent off used air and compress/filter some new one, for example.

Unless you have a pressing need to recover as much water from your air as possible. Then you process the air first and might as well recycle it. And bear in mind that hydroponic gardens serve a dual purpose, both to produce food and to recycle air.

My tomatoes may be grown from manure (my mushroom certainely) and we do not make a fuss, indeed. Still, it is not as crude as known extreme recycling. Furthermore, the argument remains: choice.

There is indeed a choice. The choice between ignoring unpleasant realities and save money or import food and spend money.


Hans

 

[Selandia]

It's not just Sci-Fi in general that assume that people can carve out a good living from a belt. Traveller makes the same assumption. Which was my point.



Who says every part of a space habitat will be high-end? The minimum accomodation for really poor people seems to cost Cr1000 per year (Cost 10,000 to build, assume the rather expensive 10% of original cost to maintain from TCS (wich is almost certainly far too high).



From page 103 of GT:Starports, a housing module can accomodate 200 people "in cramped conditions" (which still gives each person living in cramped conditions 50 spaces[*] each) and costs MCr1. Two farm modules serves as total life support for 200 people and costs MCr1. That's where I get the construction and maintenance costs I mention above.

[*] 1 GT space is one dT, right? Or am I misremembering and it's only half a dT?​

using your figures: 2Mcr for 200 persons= 10 k per person x4 = 40,000 per family dwelling, with 4,000 maintenance. Rent, when renting, has to be more than 1000 per person. even low end. GDP/pers 5120cr.

Yes traveller allow belters, no challenge, but i do not feel compel to turn the universe into a belt

But what do the people of Rethe trade for? It could be food, but it does not have to be. Maybe they want other stuff more than they want better food. Especially if they don't want to become dependent on food imports.


Hans

interstellar trades pattern comming

have fun

Selandia

 

[HG_B]

Indeed, that is my point, the govt have anti monopoly laws, so you need the govt making exeptions to have monopoly.

Have fun

Selandia

ACTUALLY, the biggest true monopoly occurred BEFORE the anti-monopoly laws via Congressional fiat. So you are quite incorrect and 180 degrees off on that.

 

[rancke]

using your figures: 2Mcr for 200 persons= 10 k per person x4 = 40,000 per family dwelling, with 4,000 maintenance. Rent, when renting, has to be more than 1000 per person. even low end. GDP/pers 5120cr.

Per capita income of Cr5,120 means an average income of Cr20,480 for a familiy of four, so it's easier just to look at individuals.

The 10% maintenance figure is far too high. It's merely an absolute maximum. It's what it costs a navy to maintain a ship, including every expense other than combat damage. That would be actual maintenance, crew salaries and pensions, replacement costs assuming a 40 year service life, and logistical support. So rent has to be a good deal less.

Yes traveller allow belters, no challenge, but i do not feel compel to turn the universe into a belt

Nor do I. I merely think belter (and orbital) living is a perfectly plausible alternative to life on a small, low-gravity desert world with very thin atmosphere.


Hans

 

[Selandia]

ACTUALLY, the biggest true monopoly occurred BEFORE the anti-monopoly laws via Congressional fiat. So you are quite incorrect and 180 degrees off on that.

I think we are getting a missunderstanding here.
No challenge to any point you raised. Lets look again

Earth (USA)
There was monopoly or near monopoly. Anti monopoly laws were enacted as an answer. Afterward, monopoly needed support of the government? I suppose you agree since you also said " The only true monopolies in the US have been those supported by legislation from congress. "

Rethe
The govt love Mega corporations that try to plan the exploitation a world the government give up controlling, only the power of compeeting MC keep the equilibrium (of course at this point it is a TU issue)

have fun

Selandia

 

[Selandia]

Trade Patterns

The long promised answer to Who do they trade with, What do they trade, What do the they trade for

IT IS POSTULATED that Rethe trade on a BETTER OR CHEAPER THAN LOCAL base, NOT on a NEED TO OR DIE base.

Trade Pattern of Rethe/Regina 2408 E 430AA8 8, Po, De, Hi,

YURST/Regina E 7B4643 5, Ni
J1 away world, its corrosive atmosphere easily yield the chemical needed in some industrial process taking place on Rethe. A non industrial world, it is a taker for the goods mass produced on Rethe with a TL advantage to its own limited production .

PAYA/Aramis 2509 A 655241 9, N, Ni
A naval base with a A shipyard, yet only few hundreds of citizens on a such a nice world is indicative of Naval reservation with some private entertainer in Startown. The families of the base are an important market as well as the Navy for some low tech goods. The only return cargo is water.

MOUGHAS/Regina 2406 C A5A588 B, Ni Water world
J2 away from Rethe, this non industrial world focus on seafood production and takes Rethe’s manufactured consumer goods in exchange for sea life based food. They are usually canned but some regular traders take frozen cargo. The industrial world of Enope try competing against Rethe but is at a lower TL. Very Large WOBO (Water, Oil, Bulk, Ore) carrier bring soil from Rethe to slowly turn shallow spot into island and extend whatever little volcanic or coral island exist. They return to Rethe with Water. Workshop and wet shipyards based on Moughas also buy basic materials, tools and machinery.

INTHE/Regina 2410 B 575776 9, Ag,
The bread basket of Rethe and many other world within J3. It also produce whatever Crude oil is imported by Rethe. On their way in, the Large OBO bring the huge amount of nitrate and potash that its intensive agribusiness require. Rethe also sell manufactured consumer and industrial goods, including lower tech component for its mechanised agriculture.

DHIAN/Aramis 2510 C 9A769D 4 Ni
J2 away, its trade is based on its exotic atmosphere. Exclusive luxury perfumes and incenses are produced there. Its bulk exports are exotic wood for cabinet making and “scent wood” that offer slow release aroma. In the smelly confine of Rethe’s underground, the “scent stick” is a favoured item. It is cheap as it is made of bark and wastes from sawmills. Match sized sticks are used as “nose bone piercing”. A non industrial TL4 world, it welcomes Rethe manufactured products. While Bulk wood is exported to Rethe’s workshops to produce low end furniture, the masterpieces are usually produced on Dhia by local masters that choose the tree to cut to match the order.

FOCALINE/Aramis 2706 E A88544 A, Ni, Ag,
J2 away, this non-industrial agricultural world take all king of goods and fertiliser from Rethe that is their main export market. Biological farming is important there and much of the fertiliser is human manure from Rethe The Tl of Rethe is too low to enter their farm machinery market.. Food is obviously the return cargo.

WOCHIERS/ Regina 0310 E AC28CC 9
J2 away, its insidious atmosphere is used to produce the chemicals used in industrial processes on Rethe and the industrial worlds of Roup and Enope also J2 away. The goods of Rethe have a Tl advantage over those of these competitor and the large population offer a good consumer base, even if the Goods of Rethe are 1 TL lower than those of Wochier and positioned as cheap alternative in the labour intensive sectors. It is a pit stop drop box on the J2 road to Roup and Enope as well as a transit warehouse for the poorly maintained J3 leg of the Feri-Wochier-Rethe route. .

ROUP C 77A9A9 6 S In, Waterworld
J4 or J2+J2 via Wochiers. This Industrial water world is called the seafood basket of the Regina subsector. A source of delicacies for rich neighbour Feri and Regina, canned seafood is mass exported to Rethe even if at first sight there would be little reason to trade between them. Higher TL product could be gotten from Feri only J2 away while local production would cover the demand for lower TL. Industrial waterworld usually find the minerals they need by dredging (strip mining) or tunnel mining from underwater habitat. However Roup was not settled as a prospective industrial world. It was alwaysseen as a food basket. It became so prosperous that its population exploded. As its population grew it developed a large industrial base, but is remains environmentally conscious and would mass purchase ingots of all kind of metals from Rethe rather than incurring significant environmental risk. Most authorities see a symbiotic relationship between Roup and Rethe and while resources management means that food export are limited, Rethe have a steady share of them. A limited WOBO( in Ore out Water) trade is taking place

ENOPE C4119888 6 In, Na
J4 or J2+J2 via Wochiers. This non agricultural industrial world have little to ask from Rethe. Higher TL product could be gotten from Feri only J2 away while local production would cover the demand for lower TL. It does have little to offer too. Traders from Rethe bring rare earth and speculative goods from Dhia and try to return with the TL B good that Feri dump on Enope at time.

FERI/Regina 2005 B 384879 B S Rich
J4+J2 via Roup, goods being usually dropped at Roup to be picked for delivery by the high volume J2 Regina-Roup liners; a J2+J3 poorly maintained route via Wochier is also used. Rethe need the high tech spares part produced by Feri a lot more than Feri need anything produced by Rethe. Nonetheless, high quality exclusive products overpriced to the point of becoming of status symbol, such as a craftsman’s Masterpiece, could always be sold on Rich world like Feri. It is the main market for such from Rethe’s finest. Luxury perfume and incense bought on Dhian for speculation are resold there. Trade imbalance mean that charter to haul consignment of parts for Rethe could be found for far trader using a J2+J2+J2 route.

REGINA/Regina 1910 A 788899 A 2 Rich, Subsector capital
J4+J3 via Roup and a J5 express link that will become weekly. It is the second market for Craftsmen’s Masterpiece from Rethe. Goods are usually dropped at Roup to be picked for delivery by the high volume J3 Regina-Roup liners. Movement of businessmen, bureaucrats, files and small luxury items (such as perfumes from Dhian) fill the small J5 express.

 

[rancke]

The long promised answer to Who do they trade with, What do they trade, What do the they trade for...

And most importantly, how much does the trade amount to?

Trade Pattern of Rethe/Regina 2408 E 430AA8 8, Po, De, Hi,

Some very nice ideas here.

PAYA/Aramis 2509 A 655241 9, N, Ni
A naval base with a A shipyard, yet only few hundreds of citizens on a such a nice world is indicative of Naval reservation with some private entertainer in Startown.

Paya was written up in The Traveller Adventure.

The families of the base are an important market as well as the Navy for some low tech goods. The only return cargo is water.

There's no way a few hundred or thousand people can be an important market.

ROUP C 77A9A9 6 S In, Waterworld
J4 or J2+J2 via Wochiers.

[...]

ENOPE C4119888 6 In, Na
J4 or J2+J2 via Wochiers.

Jump-4 traffic is roughly 25% more expensive than two time Jump-2, though twice as fast, of course. Some J4 passenger liners for people in a hurry is reasonable, but most traffic will be J2.

FERI/Regina 2005 B 384879 B S Rich
J4+J2 via Roup

The J2+J3 via Wochiers will be cheaper and will dominate the traffic. There's really no reason to go via Roup (Unless you have business on Roup too, of course).

REGINA/Regina 1910 A 788899 A 2 Rich, Subsector capital
J4+J3 via Roup and a J5 express link that will become weekly.

J3+J2 via Yori will be cheaper. J5 is a lot more expensive. There will be a few J5 liners for millionaires in a hurry, but not a lot.


Hans

 

[Selandia]

And most importantly, how much does the trade amount to?



Some very nice ideas here.


Paya was written up in The Traveller Adventure.

Thanks for the info, I will check I totally forgot.

There's no way a few hundred or thousand people can be an important market.

Right, hyperbolic, I stand corrected.

Jump-4 traffic is roughly 25% more expensive than two time Jump-2, though twice as fast, of course. Some J4 passenger liners for people in a hurry is reasonable, but most traffic will be J2.

Same thinking, Earth Comparative is early 20th century North Atlantic, Passenger liners vs Cargo.
Having agreed to tha , I add that the economics of OTU have always raised some points that I have no time nor desire to address here

Within Passenger service: Mail steammer service vs general passenger service vs Immigrant shal also be significant. The economic of G Shipping would be interesting to discuss given time.

The J2+J3 via Wochiers will be cheaper and will dominate the traffic. There's really no reason to go via Roup (Unless you have business on Roup too, of course).

Short comment: agree
Long comment is in the Roup + Wochier entries. Yes a lot of business with Roup. Still, why no drop the cargo at Wochiers to pick-up for Feri? A poor J3 link with Feri ( why would Feri want anything from Wochier or Rethe? -as said in the Feri entry-) The Regina - Feri line is likely to have nearly daily departure.

J3+J2 via Yori will be cheaper. J5 is a lot more expensive. There will be a few J5 liners for millionaires in a hurry, but not a lot.


Hans

Billionnaires in a hurry? yes add them to the list, but I'd say mostly the businessmen working for them and bureaucrats travelling to/fro the subs-capital on somebody else's money (they are the legitimate excuse for the subsidy) are the bulk of that line. This is indeed a limited service as implied in the " will become weekly" statement, Departure is occuring only once or (most likely) twice a month, as Consensual TU (I.e. most IMTU use it for it make sense). The "will become weekly" is the opportunity offered to any YTU to feel free to make it weekly as well as a warning against daily. IMTU that weekly departure is the White Elephant of the new Lord Rethe . Note that critical infos rather than big egos are more likely to be the real value aboard.

Have fun.

Selandia

 

[atpollard]

Right, hyperbolic, I stand corrected.

Actually, if a thousand people buy jump drives to repair military ships, it could be an important market.

 

[aramis]

Actually, if a thousand people buy jump drives to repair military ships, it could be an important market.

Or supervise a million robot miners.

 

[rancke]

Some additional information:

According to GT:Far Trader, the volume of trade between Rethe and the worlds you list would be in these ranges:

Yurst, Dhian, Wochiers, Roup: 1000-5000 dT/year (BTN 7.0)
Paya, Moughas, Focaline, Enope: 5000-10,000 dT/year (BTN 7.5)
Inthe, Feri, Regina: 10,000-50,000 (BTN 8.0)

(For anyone checking up on my numbers, Rethe's WTN of 4.5 in FT is based on a starport class of D (in 1120). The starport class is E in 1105, so I've used a WTN of 4.0 for Rethe.)

These numbers are so low because the Class E starport lowers Rethe's WTN (World Trade Number) by 1.5 (= 3 steps). If we assume that Rethe's starport is actually Class B but rated E for the moment because its resources are strained past the breaking point, we might assume that the trade is actually a good deal higher, though probably not the full three steps. Perhaps we can multiply the numbers above by a factor 10:

Yurst, Dhian, Wochiers, Roup: 10,000-50,000 dT/year (BTN 8.0)
Paya, Moughas, Focaline, Enope: 50,000-100,000 dT/year (BTN 8.5)
Inthe, Feri, Regina: 100,000-500,000 dT/year (BTN 9.0)

YMMV.


Hans

PS: NB! The numbers above are for cargo only; passengers are separate.

 

[rancke]

Actually, if a thousand people buy jump drives to repair military ships, it could be an important market.

A population of 1000 people won't be buying any jump drives at all unless their per capita income runs into multiple millions.


Hans

 

[Selandia]

Actually, if a thousand people buy jump drives to repair military ships, it could be an important market.

Nice point, but Id rather admit to hyperbole in this case.
Rethe does not sell Jump Drive. It sell hammers, screwdrivers, door mats, bikinis and most of the goodies of the local "StarSMart" in Paya (note however those perfume from Dhia, for which no navy girlfriend will accept substitute). I always look the planets around the customer planet to figure the competition when making trade patterns. Rethe TL 8 J1 away from Paya could only interest them in low tech goods when you consider the naval base J4 away at MACENE/ Rylanor 0202 TL E. Now this is the place where those "Gizmo 345, Capacitor, starship, for use abord of." are likely to come from. The communications between the bases insure a regular flow of J4 (casual for Navy logistic) between them

Have fun

Selandia

 

[Selandia]

Some additional information:

According to GT:Far Trader, the volume of trade between Rethe and the worlds you list would be in these ranges:

Yurst, Dhian, Wochiers, Roup: 1000-5000 dT/year (BTN 7.0)
Paya, Moughas, Focaline, Enope: 5000-10,000 dT/year (BTN 7.5)
Inthe, Feri, Regina: 10,000-50,000 (BTN 8.0)

(For anyone checking up on my numbers, Rethe's WTN of 4.5 in FT is based on a starport class of D (in 1120). The starport class is E in 1105, so I've used a WTN of 4.0 for Rethe.)

These numbers are so low because the Class E starport lowers Rethe's WTN (World Trade Number) by 1.5 (= 3 steps). If we assume that Rethe's starport is actually Class B but rated E for the moment because its resources are strained past the breaking point, we might assume that the trade is actually a good deal higher, though probably not the full three steps. Perhaps we can multiply the numbers above by a factor 10:

Yurst, Dhian, Wochiers, Roup: 10,000-50,000 dT/year (BTN 8.0)
Paya, Moughas, Focaline, Enope: 50,000-100,000 dT/year (BTN 8.5)
Inthe, Feri, Regina: 100,000-500,000 dT/year (BTN 9.0)

YMMV.


Hans

.

GT Far trader make a whole system with GT Starport and GT Starships, their volume are supposed to balance and Id hate to pick and choose components. Still I agree that Planet such as Rethe are such exception to the run of the mill result of the planet generation system that some "correction" are needed. Mine is: E is the "public" starports, those that handle the real trade are belonging to trade cartels. They are private multiple B Starport.

It is not an issue of Orbital habitat versus tunnel. Wherever people take their dive at night; even if they do not "need" Startrade because for some reason they are now potentially an autarchy; it just does not make sense once the opportunity exist that trade is that anemic for 30 billions people (including a rich slice). China, a mere 1 Billion imported 1.4Megatons of pork in 2012, and only pork. Of course you have vat grown meat... but that 1.4 Megaton was only Pork. If I play an abstract merchant prince spreadsheet campain, well... why would I care, it is just spreadsheet work with guys that beat the odds. If I try to go in a detailed world profile that make sense for adventure, I'll stretch as far as I could.

have fun

Selandia

 

[Carlobrand]

... it just does not make sense once the opportunity exist that trade is that anemic for 30 billions people (including a rich slice). ...

We could be dealing with cultural obstacles. We still don't quite know how 30-billion people ended up on a desert planet while paradise worlds settled in the same era have only tens or hundreds of millions. Perhaps some religious or cultural belief, or a government reluctant to have its population tempted by offworld tech, discourages trade with neighbors. Sounds like one of the little clues we can use to flesh out Rethe.

 

[rancke]

We could be dealing with cultural obstacles. We still don't quite know how 30-billion people ended up on a desert planet while paradise worlds settled in the same era have only tens or hundreds of millions.

The very reason why I suggest people mostly don't actually live ON the desert planet. As I suggested in the spin-off thread about Rethe's history, maybe it's because there is no natural limit to growth if you house people in space habitats. When you have a strong housing industry and finish building one habitat, what do you do to keep those people employed? Maybe you start building another habitat.

Incidentally, some worlds settled in the same era do have comparable populations.


Hans

 

[rancke]

It is not an issue of Orbital habitat versus tunnel. Wherever people take their dive at night; even if they do not "need" Startrade because for some reason they are now potentially an autarchy; it just does not make sense once the opportunity exist that trade is that anemic for 30 billions people (including a rich slice).

Trade is a two-way street. It's the lowest population that dictates amount of trade you can have between two places. And interstellar trade has always been implied to be quite anemic. I won't put up much of a defense for FT's trade volumes, but it is the only source of actual numbers we have. Until something better comes along, anyway.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

A population of 1000 people won't be buying any jump drives at all unless their per capita income runs into multiple millions.


Hans

... or the only reason that those 1000 people are in that system in the first place is because they were recruited from elsewhere to be workers for the Navy Depot located in that system (and a Navy Depot might make very large purchases as the first step in a military distribution network).

So they do not function as 1000 consumers (where your observation is dead on) but rather, they function as 1000 distribution warehouse workers for the sector Navy ... or 1000 Repair Shipyard workers.

 

[rancke]

... or the only reason that those 1000 people are in that system in the first place is because they were recruited from elsewhere to be workers for the Navy Depot located in that system (and a Navy Depot might make very large purchases as the first step in a military distribution network).

So they do not function as 1000 consumers (where your observation is dead on) but rather, they function as 1000 distribution warehouse workers for the sector Navy ... or 1000 Repair Shipyard workers.

o:o:o:
:nonono::nonono::nonono:

If you really can't see that you're straining plausibility past the breaking point here, I don't see any prospect of convincing you otherwise by reasoned argument. So I'll just say that your arguments have failed to convince me and let it go at that.


Hans