Starship Weapon Range

[Spartan159]

Something odd I noticed. So, OK. Weapon range modification is a function of mount size/cost. I can buy this, extra cooling / recoil / handwavium or lack thereof, check. But how does a mount affect Missile range? Slightly bigger/smaller size 5 missiles? *Shrug* Just something that made me go Hmm.

 

[Timerover51]

What are the ranges of starship energy weapons?

Edit Note: Just noticed who you are quoting in your signature Spartan159. Sir Winston Churchill is a VERY GOOD CHOICE.

 

[Spartan159]

page 301, base ranges are in table A, range modification is done by mount at the bottom of the page in table D or E depending on whether base range is space or world.

p.s. Thanks

 

[Timerover51]

page 301, base ranges are in table A, range modification is done by mount at the bottom of the page in table D or E depending on whether base range is space or world.

p.s. Thanks

Let us assume that I do not have the correct volume, or after reading it, I still cannot figure out what the ranges are, although based on page 393 in Traveller 5.0.9, space ranges appear to run into the millions of kilometers. Is that correct?

Am I also correct that energy weapons and missiles cannot exceed the speed of light?

 

[Spartan159]

Let us assume that I do not have the correct volume, or after reading it, I still cannot figure out what the ranges are, although based on page 393 in Traveller 5.0.9, space ranges appear to run into the millions of kilometers. Is that correct?

Am I also correct that energy weapons and missiles cannot exceed the speed of light?

Per the table on page 301, lasers and plasma/fusion has a base range of R = 7, which is Very Distant (Vd) or 50km mid band. This can be bumped up to a maximum of R = 10, Geo (Geosynchronous?) (G) or 50,000km mid band, at a cost in extra tonnage and price. R = 10 is the same as S = 5.

Missiles, Spinal Mount Meson Guns and Particle Accelerators have a base range of S = 7 Attack Range (AR) or 500,000km mid band. This can be bumped up to S = 12 Deep Space (DS) or 500 Mkm again with tonnage and cost. This would be equal to R = 17. There is a range chart on page 681 that has more detailed information.

AFAIK all weapons on page 301 are limited to the speed of light. page 364 begins the chapter how weapons work, the table on page 370-371 shows the delay weapons have above S = 5

 

[Timerover51]

Per the table on page 301, lasers and plasma/fusion has a base range of R = 7, which is Very Distant (Vd) or 50km mid band. This can be bumped up to a maximum of R = 10, Geo (Geosynchronous?) (G) or 50,000km mid band, at a cost in extra tonnage and price. R = 10 is the same as S = 5.

Missiles, Spinal Mount Meson Guns and Particle Accelerators have a base range of S = 7 Attack Range (AR) or 500,000km mid band. This can be bumped up to S = 12 Deep Space (DS) or 500 Mkm again with tonnage and cost. This would be equal to R = 17. There is a range chart on page 681 that has more detailed information.

AFAIK all weapons on page 301 are limited to the speed of light. page 364 begins the chapter how weapons work, the table on page 370-371 shows the delay weapons have above S = 5

Presumably, all of your sensors are also limited to the speed of light? Is that correct?

 

[Spartan159]

Again, AFAIK none of them are tachyonic in nature so no. I would imagine that combat against targets farther than light seconds or minutes at most is going to involve either sitting ducks or smart missiles. I have not found out how long a space combat round is yet, my reading of the rules is not comprehensive at this point, I've been jumping around a lot catching things here and there.

 

[Timerover51]

I think that it would be safe to assume that a meson gun with a range of 500,000 kilometers is a spinal mount.

So, let me get this correct. Your sensors report a target at a range of 500,000 kilometers from you, or 1.67 light seconds. You now know where the target was 1.67 seconds ago. Presumably, the target is moving at a reasonably high speed, on the order of many kilometers per second. You then align your ship so precisely that you can hit a moving target of say Azhanti High Lightning dimensions, 405m long by 61.2m wide by 36.4m high, at a distance of 500,000 kilometers with a meson particle beam with the meson particles timed to decay inside of the target hull. According to T5.0.9, page 367, meson particles travel at "near light-speed". I will assume light speed to simplify things. Your particles have to be timed to decay with an accuracy of at least one-ten millionth of a second in order to order to decay within a variance of 30 meters. The beam arrives at the target range 3.34 seconds AFTER your last firing position data. In the mean time, your target has traveled for 3.34 seconds at a velocity of maybe 50 kilometers per second. You know precisely where your target is going to be after it has travelled 167 kilometers from your last position data, and you know to within 50 of so meters precisely what the range to the target is going to be, at a distance of 500,000 kilometers.

Note, your target can alter course in three dimensions, including decelerating. If it changes course by one degree, at the end of 3.34 seconds, it will have changed the straight line projects course by a matter of 2.91 kilometers.

I invite all who read this to think long and hard about the likelihood of hitting the target with your meson bean.

 

[Spartan159]

Like I said a sitting duck target, not an aware maneuvering one. And those beans are hard too! How many dice is it at that range anyway?

 

[atpollard]

Note, your target can alter course in three dimensions, including decelerating. If it changes course by one degree, at the end of 3.34 seconds, it will have changed the straight line projects course by a matter of 2.91 kilometers.

I invite all who read this to think long and hard about the likelihood of hitting the target with your meson beam.

At 6 Gee maximum acceleration, the target's position will be known to within +/- about 180 meters (not 3 kilometers). It cannot alter course by 1 degree in 3 seconds.

So that is a tough shot aiming at an Azanti Lightning, but much easier if aiming at a Tigress ... and those are extreme Gee ratings and ranges.

At 2 Gees, the position is only +/- about 60 meters ... still within a 30 meter tall ship 50% of the time.

 

[Timerover51]

At 6 Gee maximum acceleration, the target's position will be known to within +/- about 180 meters (not 3 kilometers). It cannot alter course by 1 degree in 3 seconds.

So that is a tough shot aiming at an Azanti Lightning, but much easier if aiming at a Tigress ... and those are extreme Gee ratings and ranges.

At 2 Gees, the position is only +/- about 60 meters ... still within a 30 meter tall ship 50% of the time.

I see that you assume perfect accuracy in range on your sensors. Have you ever read a significant amount on range accuracy in radar? I would strongly suggest that you do so. And this does assume that your ship is already pointing at the precise spot to be fired at, and does not require any maneuvering whatsoever. How fast can your ship change its bearing by 180 degrees? Also, what is your basis for stating that a ship may not alter is course by one degree in 3 seconds?

 

[aramis]

I see that you assume perfect accuracy in range on your sensors. Have you ever read a significant amount on range accuracy in radar? I would strongly suggest that you do so. And this does assume that your ship is already pointing at the precise spot to be fired at, and does not require any maneuvering whatsoever. How fast can your ship change its bearing by 180 degrees? Also, what is your basis for stating that a ship may not alter is course by one degree in 3 seconds?

Because, at the typical engagement speeds in traveller, that would require many G's.

The typical minimum speed measured is one G-Turn. Many editions use G=10m/s²
MGT is 360 sec, thus 3600m/s is the minimum vector length
Since all the others are longer, we'll use MGT.

Sin(1°)=0.0174524064372835
3600*0.0174524064372835=62.8286631742206

at 6G's, and assuming only a 1G-Turn vector, that's about 2.8° of change.
If the vector is about 3-4 turns at 6G (pretty typical), it's not even 1°.

Typical velocities of ships entering combat are measured in multiple minutes, often 20+... some editions' ship combats are as long as 20 minutes (Mayday is longer still)...

And T5 uses an unspecified length ship combat round... But the time to transit is sufficiently high that you're not getting 1° change of orbital velocities in anything but a warship in 3s. And at breakout velocities - forget it - not even a warship is getting out the way. And 50,000km is 0.167 sec... which means (0.333 + traverse time) seconds time-to-target... and taking CIWS as a proof of aiming speed, total Time-to-target is going to be under 1 second for lasers at typical ranges... from the time the image leaves the target until the time the ship's laser returns, it's going to be less than a second. So less than 0.5*60*0.5^2=7.5m to 0.5*60*1^2=30m... the average ship isn't more than its own length away from where it was.

 

[McPerth]

I think that it would be safe to assume that a meson gun with a range of 500,000 kilometers is a spinal mount.

So, let me get this correct. Your sensors report a target at a range of 500,000 kilometers from you, or 1.67 light seconds. You now know where the target was 1.67 seconds ago. Presumably, the target is moving at a reasonably high speed, on the order of many kilometers per second. You then align your ship so precisely that you can hit a moving target of say Azhanti High Lightning dimensions, 405m long by 61.2m wide by 36.4m high, at a distance of 500,000 kilometers with a meson particle beam with the meson particles timed to decay inside of the target hull. According to T5.0.9, page 367, meson particles travel at "near light-speed". I will assume light speed to simplify things. Your particles have to be timed to decay with an accuracy of at least one-ten millionth of a second in order to order to decay within a variance of 30 meters. The beam arrives at the target range 3.34 seconds AFTER your last firing position data. In the mean time, your target has traveled for 3.34 seconds at a velocity of maybe 50 kilometers per second. You know precisely where your target is going to be after it has travelled 167 kilometers from your last position data, and you know to within 50 of so meters precisely what the range to the target is going to be, at a distance of 500,000 kilometers.

Note, your target can alter course in three dimensions, including decelerating. If it changes course by one degree, at the end of 3.34 seconds, it will have changed the straight line projects course by a matter of 2.91 kilometers.

I invite all who read this to think long and hard about the likelihood of hitting the target with your meson bean.

As this is not specific for T5 (physics are more or less the same in all versions), let me point that in MTM, page 80, the danger space for a MG is rating x 15 m. So, I think it can be safe to assume the area of efect is a sphere with this danger space being the radius.

So, if all my reasoning above is correct, the area afected by a rated J Meson spinal (J representing 18) will be a sphere of about 270 m radius, and the sphere radius for an N (representing 22) rated one will be 330 m, and for a T (representing 27) rated one would be 405 m. The 60-180 m error margin Atpollard talks about is well inside this sphere in all those cases...

 

[aramis]

As this is not specific for T5 (physics are more or less the same in all versions), let me point that in MTM, page 80, the danger space for a MG is rating x 15 m. So, I think it can be safe to assume the area of efect is a sphere with this danger space being the radius.

So, if all my reasoning above is correct, the area afected by a rated J Meson spinal (J representing 18) will be a sphere of about 270 m radius, and the sphere radius for an N (representing 22) rated one will be 330 m, and for a T (representing 27) rated one would be 405 m. The 60-180 m error margin Atpollard talks about is well inside this sphere in all those cases...

Striker says radius of 10m x the USP value... J would be 180m radius, or 360m sphere. 6G won't clear it in under 6 seconds...

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Pretty quick.

I see that you assume perfect accuracy in range on your sensors. Have you ever read a significant amount on range accuracy in radar? I would strongly suggest that you do so. And this does assume that your ship is already pointing at the precise spot to be fired at, and does not require any maneuvering whatsoever. How fast can your ship change its bearing by 180 degrees? Also, what is your basis for stating that a ship may not alter is course by one degree in 3 seconds?

Actually, I suspect like many of us, dude may not give two rips about the real world radar, sensors or weapons, because news flash: Traveller is make believe, a game, a fiction with little to no relation to reality.

And how fast can I spin the ship? Pretty damned fast with no Atmo. Why would I bother changing bearing to 180° when I can just spin the ship and shoot bck the way I came?

 

[flykiller]

But how does a mount affect Missile range?

not t5, but I just give missiles a number of maneuver points, 1 point per g of accel. they can maneuver as long as they have points left. been running a few beta scenarios, the best approach seems to be to achieve a general intercept course, coast to position, then maneuver to hit the target. had one missile get three passes at a target, constantly avoiding counter laser fire but missing the target hull, before running out of points. so effectively there is no range, though past the launching ship's sensor range the missile cannot be controlled.

 

[Timerover51]

Actually, I suspect like many of us, dude may not give two rips about the real world radar, sensors or weapons, because news flash: Traveller is make believe, a game, a fiction with little to no relation to reality.

I do not appreciate being called "DUDE" even if you are a moderator. I view that as quite insulting.

 

[aramis]

I do not appreciate being called "DUDE" even if you are a moderator. I view that as quite insulting.

[m;]No one called YOU "dude." It's being used as an impersonal pronoun for the third person.[/m;]

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Say what?

I do not appreciate being called "DUDE" even if you are a moderator. I view that as quite insulting.

Are you kidding?

1) As Aramis pointed out I was using it to refer to the party you responded to, not you.

2) What do you find so insulting about being addressed as dude?

3) And what about an actual response to my points as oppossed to my form of address?

4) You can call me, dude, if it makes you feel better. But fair warning, personally, I like being addressed as a "dude" since it is a friendly, generic form of address between two humans and its use implies a certain desire to be friendly.

EDIT: And since we are on the subject of things we don't like, I find the implication that I used "dude" as some sort of abuse of my Mod authority not so much insulting as offensive. But it is okay, because I am pretty sure you weren't trying to offend me. Unless I am posting with my Mod hat on and using the Mod Post red & yellow I am posting as Craig the Citizen, not Craig the Mod. Trust me you will be able to tell the difference. So, in the future when you have an issue with my posting habits leave the Moderator portion out unless you are commenting on my posting in Moderator mode. Otherwise it can come off as implying or even outright saying that by calling someone "dude" or other thing is abuse of authority.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Meson Guns.

Holy McSpace Burgers!

I thought Meson Gun beams were small areas and yet everyone here is quoting huge beam widths for them. Those things are far worse than I thought they were, I mean I figured like 1 meter of diameter and here y'all are talking 10s of meters. Yikes!

And that diameter is exploding inside. That is sick-house seriously dangerous.

Thanks all for pointing out how much I don't know about my beloved game. Still learned something new, so still a win.