System Defense Fleets

[McPerth]

Don't believe I am, at all.

The CT errata makes it clearer if the original does not-

Errata doesn't make it clearer, just changes it fully. I didn't check it, but it makes you right then.

 

[kilemall]

This is a classic example of errata being written by fans. The original version matched Mayday. The eratta makes missiles even more unbelievable.

The errata should be ignored.

According to the errata it was derived from a communication with Marc Miller with a lot of corrections of things that should have made it into the original article.

A lot of the changes make more sense then the original article, I tried working several of the designs and they only work after the errata is applied.

Given the history of QA in that era (HG1 being the biggest example), I am inclined to take this as more then 'fan errata'.

I'll be looking over Mayday shortly, such rules may scale differently from LBB2 maneuver so we'll see. But a short range only missile just does not make sense.

Am I to gather Don's Consolidated CT Errata is to be considered questionable?

 

[whartung]

Am I to gather Don's Consolidated CT Errata is to be considered questionable?

If history is any guide, it's all questionable. Rules, errata, emails, public rants at a convention, everything.

Canon isn't. Everyone's TU is different. Everyone simply makes it all up as they go along.

With CT, MT, TNE, T4, T20, GT, TH, MgT, T5, MgT2 (did I miss one?) plus random stuff from Challenge, JTAS, TD, and some random articles in other random gaming magazines, to add color to the cauldron, it's no surprise that all we have is uncertainty and opinions with pretty much little basis of any universal authority.

So, you can consider all that as to how "valid" the "errata" is.

 

[CliffBates]

I am sorry but Don's errata has been very very good at catching out the contradictions and errors that often went into GDWs products given their rapid output frames.

Yet to be honest, I have found the GDW graphics much much better than the graphics in T4 and in the Mongoose Traveller material to date.

T20 graphics was very much in line with the quality of stuff done in CT and MT.

SS3 was very interesting... It was possible to create rather interesting heavy missiles something with the punch of a torpedo but too big to be launched on the typical missile launching rack.

BTW--what was the size of the standard missile that is carried by the rack... this ought to be cleared.

 

[kilemall]

BTW--what was the size of the standard missile that is carried by the rack... this ought to be cleared.

It is somewhat using a combination of SS3 and the Striker rule.

The standard missile rack version is 50 kg in weight, 15 cm in diameter and one meter in length. Actually a bit shorter as that is the container it resides in, all this by SS3.

SS3 does reference High Guard bay missiles peripherally, as being larger, but not defined.

The Striker Rule 75 reiterates the 15 cm width for missile rack missiles and 25 cm for HG bay missiles. This is in the context of determining warhead effects of orty fire on a planetary target, so the length or weight limits are not defined.

Determine those, and the SS3 rules can handle scaling up to the larger missiles.

Rule 75 does state that 50 ton bays have 25 launchers and 100 ton bays have 50 launchers, so there is likely some provision for ready rack firing and perhaps dimensions and capacity can be extrapolated from the turret rules (3 per rack, 12 stowed in turret space in addition to weapons).


I've always taken HG missiles to be far more loaded with the smart programming, full evasion, additional to be defined penaids, fired in flights that act cooperatively in spoofing of anti-missile weapons and maintaining a valid sensor lock/targeting solution.

 

[savage]

Getting back to basics with a slightly different perspective. There are several types of System Defense Fleets (Depot, Navy, Planetary, Pocket Empire - Client State Navy).

We can see that regionally main domain fleet of the Imperium Navy might have leaned in certain directions. If we go past CT Fighting Ships...to FSotSI Vland may have used battle tender/riders to hold off the smaller Vargr corsair fleets. Let's remember there was a war once. Deneb had provincial carriers, Antares had Carriers. To assume the 3I have had one type of Defense Fleet would be inaccurate. Versus the Vargr, well let's remember that the present 3I hadn't seen forces of 500 ships previously from them (the invasion of Depot). And they destroyed the Depot System Defense Fleet. A system defense fleet would probably be an earlier generation of naval vessels. SDBs would probably not be 20kdt. That is a small monitor and should be considered as such.

Although, FSotSI is non-canonized (due to ship design mistakes) the ship emblems themselves show us which domains adopted various designs by 1116. Some of it is fluff (tankers and support vessels).

VF-12 carrier strike - Antares
ED - escort destroyers - Antares
VP - Carrier Provincial - Deneb
ED - Escort Fleet - Antares
EF - Escort Fleet - Margaret
FS - Strike Fighter - Vland
CJ - Cruiser Imperial - Deneb
CA - Cruiser Armored - Vland
CA - Cruiser Armored - Daibei
BS - Battleship Strike - Antares
BZ - Battle Experimental - Vland
BT - Battle Tender/Rider - Vland
BM - Battleship Missile - Daibei
BL - Battleship Light - Vland
BI - Dreadnought - Daibei
BB- Battleship - Margaret
TF - Tanker Fleet - Dlan
ZN - special nonstandard - Dlan
BB - Battleship - Deneb ( Rebellion Sourcebook)
CL - Light Cruiser - Lucan (Rebellion Sourcebook)
CA - Heavy Cruiser - Vland (Rebellion Sourcebook)

 

[savage]

Incidentally, TD7 has a 2000dt and 1000dt style SDB in use at Lishun Depot.

This is why the DGP is so important to keep as canon without undermining the overall value at any point.

 

[Murph]

Absolutely!

Incidentally, TD7 has a 2000dt and 1000dt style SDB in use at Lishun Depot.

This is why the DGP is so important to keep as canon without undermining the overall value at any point.

 

[Murph]

Also the DGP stuff is invaluable to chart various Fleet/ship tech levels such as the Aslan, Vargr, Zhodani, etc.

 

[Murph]

I just had a thought, that per the Honor Harrington stuff, would worlds not surrender once the enemy fleet controlled the high orbitals? Even with Meson guns, to protect the main world from kinetic and nuclear weapon bombardment?

 

[savage]

I just had a thought, that per the Honor Harrington stuff, would worlds not surrender once the enemy fleet controlled the high orbitals? Even with Meson guns, to protect the main world from kinetic and nuclear weapon bombardment?

Depends on the quality of the air defense. If they have a 99-100% kill on incoming missiles and Deep Meson Sites, they can make orbit an uncomfortable place. It's a high casualty decision. For example, if the invaders are the K'Kree or Virus, would you fight to the last man with a gun? Probably.

 

[McPerth]

I just had a thought, that per the Honor Harrington stuff, would worlds not surrender once the enemy fleet controlled the high orbitals? Even with Meson guns, to protect the main world from kinetic and nuclear weapon bombardment?

According to FFW rules (page 16):

Surrender: A world with no atmosphere will surrender to the enemy under certain conditions. Such a world surrenders when there is at least one enemy squadron in the system with an attack factor (not bombardment factor) greater than 0 and there are no friendly squadrons or active SDBs in the system.

So, it seems that this world surrundering is quite accepted (and expected and honored) practice in the Frontier Wars (that may be a widespread thing or part of the "rules" agreed among Imerium and Zhodani to minimize civilian casualties).

See that, to give you an example, this means a planet like Glisten (outside FFW map, BTW) would surrund if its SDB fleet is destroyed (assuming there remains a single space squadron with attack factor over 0), the 1500 TL 15 battalions expected to defend it (according the tables given in JTAS and in MT:RS) notwhistanding, making them useful only to define the garrisson needed to keep the planet conquered.

In any case, as I stated in other threads, I don't remember a single instance where a world has been indiscriminately bombed to surrunder in the whole OTU history (the K'kree might have done it against "meat eaters", I've read no examples).

 

[savage]

According to FFW rules (page 16):



So, it seems that this world surrundering is quite accepted (and expected and honored) practice in the Frontier Wars (that may be a widespread thing or part of the "rules" agreed among Imerium and Zhodani to minimize civilian casualties).

See that, to give you an example, this means a planet like Glisten (outside FFW map, BTW) would surrund if its SDB fleet is destroyed (assuming there remains a single space squadron with attack factor over 0), the 1500 TL 15 battalions expected to defend it (according the tables given in JTAS and in MT:RS) notwhistanding, making them useful only to define the garrisson needed to keep the planet conquered.

In any case, as I stated in other threads, I don't remember a single instance where a world has been indiscriminately bombed to surrunder in the whole OTU history (the K'kree might have done it against "meat eaters", I've read no examples).

I agree it is a weak area in the OTU. The descriptions are not fabulous.

Perhaps;
The Rape of Trin was a bombing (TNE) and would alter Regency thinking. They're are references to a number of suicide strain attacks (ships vs starports).
K'Kree assault on capital (1248) may be another example.

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

I don't remember a single instance where a world has been indiscriminately bombed to surrunder in the whole OTU history (the K'kree might have done it against "meat eaters", I've read no examples).

It was SOP for the Vilani in the case of particularly resistant worlds. The Siege of Muan Gwi was essentially just the Vilani seizing high orbit, standing back, and saturating the Vegan defenses with nukes until they cried uncle. I strongly suspect that was the fate of the most heavily populated Geonee worlds, as well.

There was also a half-hearted attempt at this during the Siege of Terra (Third Interstellar War) -- including a spread of nukes that breached the defenses somewhere on the planet -- but the Sarpuhii in charge of that operation wanted Terra conquered intact, so indiscriminate bombing was avoided in that case. But his reticence was regarded as a controversial move on his part with the rest of the Vilani power structure.

 

[McPerth]

I agree it is a weak area in the OTU. The descriptions are not fabulous.

Perhaps;
The Rape of Trin was a bombing (TNE) and would alter Regency thinking. They're are references to a number of suicide strain attacks (ships vs starports).
K'Kree assault on capital (1248) may be another example.

As I've never been into TNE, I didn't know about them and I trust your word on it. In any case, the attackers were in those cases K'kree (one of the posible exceptions I gave) and (I understand) virus dominated fletes.

It was SOP for the Vilani in the case of particularly resistant worlds. The Siege of Muan Gwi was essentially just the Vilani seizing high orbit, standing back, and saturating the Vegan defenses with nukes until they cried uncle. I strongly suspect that was the fate of the most heavily populated Geonee worlds, as well.

There was also a half-hearted attempt at this during the Siege of Terra (Third Interstellar War) -- including a spread of nukes that breached the defenses somewhere on the planet -- but the Sarpuhii in charge of that operation wanted Terra conquered intact, so indiscriminate bombing was avoided in that case. But his reticence was regarded as a controversial move on his part with the rest of the Vilani power structure.

Aside not being sure of the canonicity of IW (being a GT product), in all those instances actions were performed against opponents that could not retaliate (the main factor behind abiding treaties).

 

[Drakon]

In any case, as I stated in other threads, I don't remember a single instance where a world has been indiscriminately bombed to surrunder in the whole OTU history (the K'kree might have done it against "meat eaters", I've read no examples).

Not sure if this count, but when the Imperial fleet left Lemish in 1117, the Vargr attacked shortly after. When they did, the bombing, while focused on the starport and the industrial facilities, did a lot of damage.

 

[savage]

Not sure if this count, but when the Imperial fleet left Lemish in 1117, the Vargr attacked shortly after. When they did, the bombing, while focused on the starport and the industrial facilities, did a lot of damage.

Good point. They didn't only bomb it but the kept bombing it to keep TL low.

 

[Condottiere]

Dog in a manger.

 

[McPerth]

In the Rebellion rules began to be broken quite soon, and with the Black War they were fully ignored and war became a true genocide. I meant before the Rebellion (though I forgot to specify).

 

[Drakon]

The starport was reduced from a class A to a D. tech level dropped 3 from either a C or D to an 9 or A. The Travellermap data I believe is for 1105 so 12 years later, it does not seem unreasonable for Tech level to grow one notch.

One problem I had was that Lemish had a population of 1 million, in 1105. With a report that 1 million people were killed in the Vargr attacks, rebuilding is going to be tough.