Please review Jump Drive article & Provide feedback.

[maksimsmelchak]

Please review Jump Drive article & Provide feedback.

The Jump Drive article at the wiki was originally written in 2006, mostly using late 1970's and 1980's canon materials. However, some of the materials and later article additions are of questionable canonicity.

Any help, comments, corrections, edits, etc. from readers, fans, and reviewers would be most welcome. Please.

In addition, I have been compiling the "lore" of the traveler jump drive for some time. I have taken all of that collected data and built it into what I hope is an easy-to-read data table. I would love some feedback on whether the data is correct and it might be of use to you as a player, referee, or fan. Please. Is there anything missing?

I have long been frustrated by the difficulty of getting my younger players to learn or absorb Traveller storyline and background so I have been trying to make Traveller storyline more accessible while staying within the permissibility rules of T5, Mongoose, etc.

Take a gander, please, and let me know what you think. Thanks!

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Changes or arguments for changes to the article having secrets/meta indicating the "true numbers" accessible from within the OTU universe

Based on Canon(?)
T5.09 Rules indicate that Drive Performance can go to 9. But the OTU generally only knows about Jump and maybe experimental Hop?

How do you get 64+ Levels From an 1115 standpoint?
Based on how you rewrite Levels should either be anywhere from
6+ (known to the Imperium at TL 15)
7+ (counting TL 15 Experimental Hop Drives)
Some number based on Galaxiad (which there is no specific OTU reference)?
Some number based on "The Singularity" aka TL33?

Interesting Argument/Discussion to muddy the waters elsewhere At TL 16/17 (some references indicate some starship equip was TL 17 so....) did the Darrians have J7 in T5.09 ruleset (which is canon yes?)

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Also add all of the alternative technology drive which do not exist in OTU to indicate non-canon or separate articles for non Jump/OTU or remove the Canon category for the article

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Also add all of the alternative technology drive which do not exist in OTU to indicate non-canon or separate articles for non Jump/OTU or remove the Canon category for the article

Good point. Thanks.

Would you please elaborate? Not 100% sure what you mean.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Hi Nathan,

Changes or arguments for changes to the article having secrets/meta indicating the "true numbers" accessible from within the OTU universe

OK.

*** Would you please elaborate more what this might look like? ***

Based on Canon(?)
T5.09 Rules indicate that Drive Performance can go to 9. But the OTU generally only knows about Jump and maybe experimental Hop?

I usually try to indicate such thing as conjectured science or technology.

I haven't really matched up the T5 book data with the article yet. It's coming and on my list of 1001 things to do!

How do you get 64+ Levels From an 1115 standpoint?
Based on how you rewrite Levels should either be anywhere from
6+ (known to the Imperium at TL 15)
7+ (counting TL 15 Experimental Hop Drives)
Some number based on Galaxiad (which there is no specific OTU reference)?
Some number based on "The Singularity" aka TL33?

I don't believe I came up with it, but the user logs indicate that I entered it. I want to say that came from the MT Starship Operators book. I don't really recall.

I didn't invent the ''weave'' trope and I can't find it in Agent either. I do recall reading an astrophysics journal that mentioned the idea. Haven't found the exact journal yet though.

In real life, the math indicates far more possible dimensions, usually in mathematical multiples of 12 or 16. Of course, it's all theory for us here in reality.

Interesting Argument/Discussion to muddy the waters elsewhere:
At TL 16/17 (some references indicate some starship equip was TL 17 so....) did the Darrians have J7 in T5.09 ruleset (which is canon yes?)

The heck if I know. I would say yes, but this is one of those fun ideas where the canon is muddy, as you mention.

Canon. Yes. In as much as we can determine canon without MWM. LOL

Thanks!

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[mike wightman]

There is a disconnect between T5 and previous canon.
There is a disconnect between MgT version of jump and T5.

Now to expand.
In original CT-MT etc jump ws limited to 1-6 regardless of TL above 15, MT had some neat rules for reducing fuel required at TLs above 15 but there was no drive breakthrough to hop or anything like that (and note that while the Imperium of the Galaxiad may have made the hop drive breakthrough the 3I most certainly has not according to previous canon), nor was there a progression to jump 7-9 (which would require drop tanks anyway).

MgT has gone with the paradigm that the jump fuel creates a bubble around the ship - which opens up a lot of issues in itself.

MWM canon is T5 until he says its not - so go with the T5 description as correct for the OTU

 

[whulorigan]

I usually try to indicate such thing as conjectured science or technology.

I haven't really matched up the T5 book data with the article yet. It's coming and on my list of 1001 things to do!

I agree with Nathan. Put anything post-1116 on a Secret or Metadata page, and then elaborate it there. That way it keeps the 1116 In-Universe format of the article intact, and yet provides all of the other information to those who want it on the other page.

You could divide metadata into two sections: One for future T5 Drive tiers and types, and another section for alternate drives (like stutterwarp) for other ATUs.

I don't believe I came up with it, but the user logs indicate that I entered it. I want to say that came from the MT Starship Operators book. I don't really recall.

I didn't invent the ''weave'' trope and I can't find it in Agent either. I do recall reading an astrophysics journal that mentioned the idea. Haven't found the exact journal yet though.

In real life, the math indicates far more possible dimensions, usually in mathematical multiples of 12 or 16. Of course, it's all theory for us here in reality.

The levels and weave do come from DGP:Starship Operator's Manual. In it (and going from the state of High Energy Physics/String Theory in 1991 when it was published), there were postulated to be 26 dimensions of spacetime (concurrent String Theory), coupled with 36 levels of J-Space. This led to a total of 62 levels of spacetime. These additional dimensions above 4 shrank to subatomic size or less very shortly after the Big Bang. The Jump Drive supposedly re-expands the appropriate J-Level Dimension for a temporary amount of time in a bubble about the ship, and decays after about a week of subjective time.

Note that after the publication of SOM, it was discovered that the 26 dimensional model could be simplified to a 10 or 11 dimensional model, so you could justify reducing the 62 dimensions down to 46 or 47 for the DGP model.


See this post:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=460002&postcount=49

 

[maksimsmelchak]

There is a disconnect between T5 and previous canon.
There is a disconnect between MgT version of jump and T5.

Now to expand.
In original CT-MT etc jump ws limited to 1-6 regardless of TL above 15, MT had some neat rules for reducing fuel required at TLs above 15 but there was no drive breakthrough to hop or anything like that (and note that while the Imperium of the Galaxiad may have made the hop drive breakthrough the 3I most certainly has not according to previous canon), nor was there a progression to jump 7-9 (which would require drop tanks anyway).

MgT has gone with the paradigm that the jump fuel creates a bubble around the ship - which opens up a lot of issues in itself.

MWM canon is T5 until he says its not - so go with the T5 description as correct for the OTU

Hi Mike,

*** If you are comfortable with it, would you please send me your cell phone number sometime so we could chat about this? Alternatively, I could send you mine. ***

I lack your breadth of knowledge and interest in Trav starships and would love to learn from you and try to get it more right.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Quick note Maksim. As you may know, while I do not agree with the constraints the I perceive the wiki has, I can operate properly within those constraints.

To clarify this is more my thought process on what to include or exclude in the article. I should have been more clear. Your article does not appear to be solely "Jump Drive" and should be reorganized.

First, the article speaks of several FTL technologies. If you wish to discuss them in the article, then the title of the article should be something like "FTL Technologies in the Traveller Game" because yes these have all been written up in the "rules" sections of various "approved" versions of Traveller. Perhaps apply some sort of mixed canon category descriptor. But see next.

Next, if you talking about the OTU and only OTU, then all the references to alternative FTL technologies should be dropped. Stutterwarp AFAIK does not exist in the OTU, it exists only in the 2300 universe, jump only in OTU. Yes both are "Traveller Games", both are not OTU. and so on. In addition, inclusion of stutterwarp may accelerate the process of having nutty people like me putting in 2300 articles. Because therein lies the door to fanon...
The Title may then be Jump Drive. Or maybe not. See next section.

But what about Skip, Leap, Bound, Vault, Six, Seven, Eight, Nine drives? If you are mentioning Hop, where are the others? The T5.09 rules have them yes, but I have not seen an OTU reference other than "T5.09 is the new canon". If valid, are these then part of OTU at this point? If they are included your article title should be "OTU FTL Technologies" or "FTL Technologies" (saying OTU is redundant), not Jump Drive. Jump Drive should be a separate article as should Hop Drive, Skip Drive, etc.

However those drives speak of a technology achievable because the physics of the OTU universe (aka game rules) allow for it, not that anyone has developed them yet (beyond Grandfather?) in-universe (in game). As of 1115 in the Third Imperium, no one has developed Hop have they? Perhaps someone in the 3I is working on it as the universe (rules) allow for experimental versions to be made. But where is your canonical book reference indicating such? If they are all OTU, but no "proven" reference, you need to hide them in a meta or secret data section. Sure link them and such other articles as needed. To include them in the main article again means rewrite the title as "FTL Technologies" or some such.

It is with this splitting of hairs and removal of inappropriate items, the article could then more properly be called Jump Drive.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Hi Nathan,

Quick note Maksim. As you may know, while I do not agree with the constraints the I perceive the wiki has, I can operate properly within those constraints.

I just work with them, because I want to further T5 and the wiki as a referee and player resource.

I'm not sure I like or dislike the delineation either.

To clarify this is more my thought process on what to include or exclude in the article. I should have been more clear. Your article does not appear to be solely "Jump Drive" and should be reorganized.

It's not really my article. It's a community effort. I'm just the guy willing to mould it.

I see your point.

First, the article speaks of several FTL technologies. If you wish to discuss them in the article, then the title of the article should be something like "FTL Technologies in the Traveller Game" because yes these have all been written up in the "rules" sections of various "approved" versions of Traveller. Perhaps apply some sort of mixed canon category descriptor. But see next.

I guess the article is properly "FTL Technologies" or could be...

I can work on more properly separating the fruit salad...

Next, if you talking about the OTU and only OTU, then all the references to alternative FTL technologies should be dropped. Stutterwarp AFAIK does not exist in the OTU, it exists only in the 2300 universe, jump only in OTU. Yes both are "Traveller Games", both are not OTU. and so on. In addition, inclusion of stutterwarp may accelerate the process of having nutty people like me putting in 2300 articles. Because therein lies the door to fanon...
The Title may then be Jump Drive. Or maybe not. See next section.

The wiki is about OTU, IMTU, ATU, etc. It has a very broad license from FFE, so to speak.

Somehow, we're supposed to include everyone or as many as possible. It's all-inclusive.

I see your point. Thank you for sharing it. I'll see what I can do about it.

But what about Skip, Leap, Bound, Vault, Six, Seven, Eight, Nine drives? If you are mentioning Hop, where are the others? The T5.09 rules have them yes, but I have not seen an OTU reference other than "T5.09 is the new canon". If valid, are these then part of OTU at this point? If they are included your article title should be "OTU FTL Technologies" or "FTL Technologies" (saying OTU is redundant), not Jump Drive. Jump Drive should be a separate article as should Hop Drive, Skip Drive, etc.

I have not yet gotten to T5 technologies yet. Can't wait to do it. I plug away a little bit at the ice berg every day.

*** May we exchange cell phone numbers privately? ***

I'd love to get down the basic frames for some articles and turn you loose on them.

However those drives speak of a technology achievable because the physics of the OTU universe (aka game rules) allow for it, not that anyone has developed them yet (beyond Grandfather?) in-universe (in game). As of 1115 in the Third Imperium, no one has developed Hop have they? Perhaps someone in the 3I is working on it as the universe (rules) allow for experimental versions to be made. But where is your canonical book reference indicating such? If they are all OTU, but no "proven" reference, you need to hide them in a meta or secret data section. Sure link them and such other articles as needed. To include them in the main article again means rewrite the title as "FTL Technologies" or some such.

Ok. Good thoughts.

It is with this splitting of hairs and removal of inappropriate items, the article could then more properly be called Jump Drive.

That's what discussion is for... splitting hairs and trying to work out these impossible issues.

I really appreciate your feedback.

Always appreciate your keen insights.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[robject]

The massive T5 Core Rulebook (designed to beat dissenters into silence perhaps?) clarifies some issues.

For example, the higher-order jumpspaces and jump drives that various researchers were looking for since CT and DGP days are indeed embodied in these fancy new drives. But none of those research organizations produce a single working Jump-7 drive until TL16, and none can produce a working Hop drive until TL17.

That means for all practical purposes there is no Jump 7 until TL16. However, it also means that there may be research stations which claim to possess prototypes and experiments that prove such things are possible. Same goes for Hop.

So there are researchers out there who will claim that they're within ten years of harnessing the next level of jumpspace, or within twenty years of reaching a higher order of jumpspace, promising a tenfold increase in jump speeds. But they're always ten or twenty years away.

 

[Condottiere]

Or build prototypes at lower tech levels.

 

[robject]

Or build prototypes at lower tech levels.

That's how we do it in T5 as well. Performance is degraded in specific ways with primitive drives, and we label more primitive drives with specific terms such as Experimental, Prototype, and Early. So for example a prototype Jump 7 drive can, at best, only do Jump 5, even though it's designed as "Jump 7".