System Defense Fleets

[Condottiere]

I was thinking more in terms of this guy:

As regards black globes, lasers can act as sonar, and anything can be a depth charge.

 

[Selandia]

No, it isn't

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_boat_tender

I was thinking of the french Foudre when I wrote, but in the absence of small package ship killer (torpedo), there are no Torpedo Boat (either Steam TB or MTB ) henceforth the reference to Battle Tender for Gunboat.

Black globe would cover "submersible cruiser" type submarine (fighting from the surface after a surprise approach and diving only to escape a stronger enemy: I sneak upon them, then I outrun what I do not outgun), but the absence of torpedo + the inability of fighting from "cloacked" status break the modern submarine analogy.

As far as Heavy SDB are concern, I was thinking not only of Monitors (the Robert shown would be a Heavy SDB with Spinal mounts). I had in mind the A-H Monarch class of late XIX, with 4x 10" guns and the usual lesser suspects on 5,547 tons at 15.5 - 17.5 knots, with short range. The 3 ships division being powerfull enough to break a close blokade by anything short of a BB division.

Note that while Monitor did engage in sea battle, WWI & WWII monitor (including the Fa di Bruno, the ugliest ships ever built) were made as "orbital bombardment unit"(intended to target land objective) and that the HMS Robert (class) depicted do not have a gun director and telemeter to engage naval target. That is certainly a role for specialized System Defense Boat as well as battle rider and I have no bone with the HMS Roberts being considered a heavy SDB.

have fun

Selandia

 

[Condottiere]

The difference between actual big gunned monitors and coastal battleships is their role; the coastals are meant to intercept warships, but make little sense in terms of resources expended against those of real battleships for empires, which need to project power, which means they can protect their home territories in someone else's backyard.

 

[McPerth]

In CT HG2 it says:

MT Ref's book also says this:

There is a MT reference to this tactic in a Challenge article - Project Blackheart or something like that (this is from memory - my Challenge magazines are in the loft at the moment).

Also in MT:Knightfall one such attack is described.

 

[Selandia]

The difference between actual big gunned monitors and coastal battleships is their role; the coastals are meant to intercept warships, but make little sense in terms of resources expended against those of real battleships for empires, which need to project power, which means they can protect their home territories in someone else's backyard.

Generally true, that is why I used the Austro-Hungarian KuK as reference. Until 1900, (re: ship classes with better ocean-going abilities and appointment of Adm Montecuccoli 1903) A-H did not saw interest in independant projection of significant sea power beyond the Adriatic and the Ionian seas (in neighboring systems). The political intricacies of the Kaiseliche und Koenigishe Marine left aside of the discussion, it remains (for good or bad reasons) an example of a "System (the Adriatic sea as a system) Defense Fleet".

Their very limited ability to project power outside of the intended defensive Triple Alliance scheme (Germany, A-H, Italy - the later did not join in 1914 on the ground that it was an agressive war) meant that the blockade of the Straight of Otranto prevented them to "jump" out. Until 1910 they essentially had a "battle rider" fleet. In 1914 they essentially protected the homeworld from "orbital bombardment" while doing some against enemy instalations.

BTW, having 6 x 10,000t 20 years old pre-Dreadnought rather than 3 Monarch (5,500) and 3 Hapsburg (8,300) would have changed nothing to the geo-politic of the Adriatic once the MN, the RM and RN squadrons squatted Otranto. The study of the KuK might not be the study of an aberration, but rather of an oddity in a world where once in a while a square peg has to be fitted in the round holes of Adm Mahan.

Have fun

Selandia

 

[Condottiere]

I wouldn't say it had no global effect.

But the Austrians certainly had the same dilemma as the Germans, balancing military priorities, without the industrial capacity of the Rhineland and Willie's envy of his cousin's boats.

After Lepanto, I get the impression that maritime concerns weren't the principal threats facing the Austrians, even when trying to hold on to their Italian holdings.

 

[Selandia]

Right, the A-H was a continental power that did not bother acquiring colonies abroad. Its confrontations were with the Russian and Ottoman empires. The Russian Baltic fleet was to run the German gauntlet of the Skagerak while the Russian Black Sea Fleet was checked by Turkish interdiction of the straits (they were as eager as the A-H to contain it there) and Turkey had no fleet to speak of. A-H had fairly little foreign trade under its flag that needed the kind of protection needed by British and French flags. Also missing was the extended coast-line of Italy. In that respect it was initially like 1894 Germany (before the Berlin colonial conference).

However, Germany had a Kaiser that wanted a multi continental empire, had the means to do so, had trade and industrial concerns that wanted so, was growing one of the largest merchant marine of the time to grab the opportunities offered by the need to satisfy (beside national pride) the requirements for raw materials imports and industrial exports of Germany. The Kaiser also understood that Britain was surviving through seaborne imports.

Since the 1867 constitution, the Austro-Hungarian Realms was really a confederation with 2 realms, each with a legislature: the Austrian Empire and the Kingdom of Hungary, with a common Sovereign and some common institutions. The two territorial armies with budget voted in each parliaments were better equipped than the Common ("federal") Army. (Unlike US National Guard, German Landwere, British Territorials etc). The budget of the Common Army (paid 60% Austria, 40% Hungary) was voted (begged by the minister of defense) in a common session of 20 delegates from each parliaments. There was no "territorial" navies so the KuK was perennially entangled in budget struggle, with nobody truely accountable to a constituency for "our Navy". The Hungarian usually asking for some pro-rating of spending (including building expenses between Trieste and Fiume) under pain of veto. To make matters more politically complicated, most of the coastal "Austrian" were Italians subjects of the Empire while most of the coastal "Hungarian" were Croatians subjects of the Kingdom. The developpement of a Navy League improved matters in the early 1900.

It was only as part of the triple alliance that A-H saw the possibility to have high sea squadrons playing a significant rôle alongside the Regia Marina against the French-British. The building of a high sea fleet was more a way to become a usefull ally for Italy (reinforce the usefullness of the Triple Alliance for Italy) than anything else. Note that both the RM and KuK were instrumental in carving pieces out of the Ottoman Empire from 1904 onward and that both power wanted their warhounds capable to lay claim to the juicy parts (although, the A-H take over of Bosnia Herzegovina in 1910, unlike the taking of Libya by Italy required almost no sea power beside a blocading force)

have fun

Selandia

 

[Whipsnade]

The political intricacies of the Kaiseliche und Koenigishe Marine left aside of the discussion, it remains (for good or bad reasons) an example of a "System (the Adriatic sea as a system) Defense Fleet".

That's a nice analogy; the KuKM being akin to a system defense force with limited power projection abilities.

IIRC and thanks to naval miniature wargaming many decades ago, while small the KuKM was surprisingly active during the war. The same day Italy joined the Entente in 1915 and DOW'd the Central Powers, the KuKM successfully raided the Italian coast with a large portion of their surface force. Before 1915, the KuKM had supported operations against Montenegro and Serbia sending some French shore batteries packing. There were a few cruiser/destroyer actions during the war with Entente convoys being mangled, KuKM subs performed rather well, and several shore bombardment raids were made by both sides. All in all, lots of action to game with forces on each side small enough to handle.

While the Otranto Barrage may have kept the KuKM inside the Adriatic, it didn't stop the KuKM from being active in the Adriatic.

OTOH, the KuKM was in the receiving end of Italy's innovations regarding MTBs, limpet mines, and "frogmen".

 

[aramis]

I was thinking more in terms of this guy:

As regards black globes, lasers can act as sonar, and anything can be a depth charge.

Lasers as sonar? Nope. Ladar gets no return, and the ipm is too thin to glow, so you don't see it get stopped by the globe.

Sand, however.... use a 1mm chaff on wide dispersal, then 500um (599 GHz) radar, and look for dropouts....

 

[kilemall]

Lasers as sonar? Nope. Ladar gets no return, and the ipm is too thin to glow, so you don't see it get stopped by the globe.

Sand, however.... use a 1mm chaff on wide dispersal, then 500um (599 GHz) radar, and look for dropouts....

Illumination rounds, black bodies that shouldn't be there.

Occlusion against starfields as another tactic.

But correct me if I am wrong, the ship should still register on mass detectors, correct?

 

[aramis]

Illumination rounds, black bodies that shouldn't be there.

Occlusion against starfields as another tactic.

Doesn't give you the range. And, despite the vast size of light,, sensible light is still pretty sparse.

Illum rounds have the same lack of anything to light up; so unless the ship is directly between round and sensor, it's no different than laser.

But correct me if I am wrong, the ship should still register on mass detectors, correct?

Yep.

And on microwave background, it may be a blip.

But no "Throw light at it" solution is at all workable.

 

[Condottiere]

1. Austrian Navy - I freely admit neither it, the Turkish nor the Italian ones interest me; outside of the fact that possessing dreadnoughts became a reflection of a nation's power status, I'm going to guess that the Austrian's territorial expansion in the Balkans would be backed up with their fleet interdicting any traffic along the Adriatic shore, isolating the Balkan countries during a crisis.

2. Lasers as sonar - I was thinking of using actual lasers weapon systems, systematically actively plinking the space within their range; laser beam inexplicably disappears, that area would receive close attention.

 

[aramis]

1. Austrian Navy - I freely admit neither it, the Turkish nor the Italian ones interest me; outside of the fact that possessing dreadnoughts became a reflection of a nation's power status, I'm going to guess that the Austrian's territorial expansion in the Balkans would be backed up with their fleet interdicting any traffic along the Adriatic shore, isolating the Balkan countries during a crisis.

2. Lasers as sonar - I was thinking of using actual lasers weapon systems, systematically actively plinking the space within their range; laser beam inexplicably disappears, that area would receive close attention.

You can't see te beam in vacuum. Not enough to refract/reflect it.

 

[mike wightman]

You can't see anything at all until light reflects off it or is emitted by it in the first place.

What you could do is use a laser to rapidly scan a cone and look for the reflected light, or scan for the heat signature given off if the laser is absorbed by the ship hull. The amount of sky you could scan like this would be fairly limited I would imagine.

A ship weapon laser would make quite an effective 'laser searchlight' - but note that this is active scanning and gives away your position.

Lidar is the modern term I think.

 

[whartung]

You can't see anything at all until light reflects off it or is emitted by it in the first place.

What you could do is use a laser to rapidly scan a cone and look for the reflected light, or scan for the heat signature given off if the laser is absorbed by the ship hull. The amount of sky you could scan like this would be fairly limited I would imagine.

At any "nominal" starship engagement range, where the target is covering micro to milli arc-seconds of sky, I don't think the lasers would be particularly viable

A ship weapon laser would make quite an effective 'laser searchlight' - but note that this is active scanning and gives away your position.

A) "no stealth in space" suggests that your presence, if not your position, is known already. They may not have actual sensor lock on you though.

B) if the laser is giving away your position, it's likely doing it's job of poking holes in the things you're giving away your position to.

C) In this case, the targets are entombed in the Black Globe, and they can't see you anyway.

 

[kilemall]

While I understand most people interpret the Black Globe as a 'you can't see me therefore I can't see you', but why couldn't it act as one great big passive array? Not particularly fine resolution, but enough to say 'got hit from spiinal meson gun thataway'.

 

[Condottiere]

Next up is the net.

You get four drones to sweep in formation, within range of a timed or continuous energy signal, and the moment it gets interrupted, they've netted a dark denizen of the deep.

 

[aramis]

While I understand most people interpret the Black Globe as a 'you can't see me therefore I can't see you', but why couldn't it act as one great big passive array? Not particularly fine resolution, but enough to say 'got hit from spiinal meson gun thataway'.

It can, but it's a non-directional scanner. It will detect all RF, and the local particle density... because it's all feeding into the capacitors. You can monitor that flow rate. My players did so yesterday.

The moment they exited jump with the BG on, they asked for the wattage...
when I said 1 watt, RB asked "1 kilowatt, 1 gigawatt?"
"Nope," says I, "1 measly little watt."
RB exclaims, "Oh, crap, we missed. At least we didn't hit anything."​

Next up is the net.

You get four drones to sweep in formation, within range of a timed or continuous energy signal, and the moment it gets interrupted, they've netted a dark denizen of the deep.

Your net isn't likely to be able to find it. It's 99.99999% hole.
a BG is ZERO emissions. At a reasonably small space combat round (3 min), 1 hex range is about 3000 km, assuming 1 G-burn hexes.
At 1 hex, your 1 km bg for a light cruiser is roughly 0.78 km² of 113097335.52 km² of sky. A 6.944444444444445e-9 of the sky. 1/4th that at 2 hexes.

If you've got really sensitive optical, you MIGHT catch it as a dip in the Cosmic Microwave Background... but it's a transient blip of a fraction of a second. And those are NOT cheap.

Edit to add: I actually figure the BG has some emissions... directly about on par with the CMB.

 

[Condottiere]

When you're pinging a timed or continuous signal between four points, any interruption in empty space is going to look suspicious.

 

[aramis]

When you're pinging a timed or continuous signal between four points, any interruption in empty space is going to look suspicious.

You're NOT GOING TO GET AN INTERRUPTION!

You quite obviously don't understand how freaking BIG space is.

To find that 1km sphere with a beam interruption, you need that beam to actually cross the sphere. That beam is maybe a few meters wide.

But your nodes are at least several KM apart.
Try this: Get 4 cans, and some string, and a penny. Set them 1m apart. Run string from can to can. Compare that penny to the big empty spots, and remember, your net can't turn easily... it won't be circling, either, because that's EXTREMELY energy intensive.... and see how much is empty?

So, your interruption net is almost totally worthless. Checking the CMB against it is FAR FAR FAR FAR more likely to get a hit... Even then, it's not likely, since canon says you can't detect an operating BG with passives except by star occultation... which implies it radiates at/near CMB levels, BTW...