MGT Only: Missiles, railguns and sandcasters, oh my

[Brandon C]

I've split this from my pocket empires thread* since this is a technical sidenote.

Briefly, this is an alternate universe with multiple pocket empires of typically 6-12 star systems each and wll use MgT 1e rules.

I am considering having one empire, for a reason I have yet determined (racial bias, insane emperor, etc), not use starship beam weapons, relying on missiles, torpedoes, railguns and sandcasters.

First, I will need to houserule point defense, allowing railguns (or possibly sandcasters) to intercept missiles.

Secondly, will starships armed thusly stand a chance against ships with beam weapons?

* http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=36426

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Based on my vague recollection of MgT: No.

Space combat is dominated by 40 dT fighters. The best weapon is Particle.

In the small combat system Meson bays were good.

 

[Carlobrand]

From Ringworld:

"Show us a wonder," the spokesman was saying. "We doubt not your power. But you may not pass this way again. We would have a memory to pass to our children." Louis considered. They'd already flown like birds; that trick would not impress twice. What about manna from the kitchen slots? But even Earthborn humans varied in their tolerance of certain food. The difference between food and garbage was mostly cultural. Some ate locusts with honey, others broiled snails; one man's cheese was another's rotted milk. Best not chance it. What about the flashlight-laser? As Louis reached into his 'cyclies cargo slot, the first edge of a shadow square touched the rim of the sun. Darkness would make his demonstration all the more impressive. With aperture wide and power low, he turned the light first on the spokesman, then on his four co-rulers, last on the faces of the crowd. If they were impressed, they hid it well. Hiding his disappointment, Louis aimed the implement high. The figurine which was his target jutted from the tower's roof. It was like a modernized, surrealistic gargoyle. Louie's thumb moved, and the gargoyle glowed yellow-white. His index finger shifted, and the beam narrowed to a pencil of green light. The gargoyle sprouted a white-hot navel. Louis waited for the applause. "You fight with light," said the man with the tattooed hand. "Surely this is forbidden." The crowd shouted, and was as suddenly silent. "We did not know it," said Louis. "We apologize." "Did not know it? How could you not know it? Did you not raise the Arch in sign of the Covenant with Man?" "What arch is that?" The hairy man's face was hidden, but his astonishment was evident. "The Arch over the world, O Builder!" Louis understood then. He started to laugh. The hairy man punched him unskillfully in the nose.

 

[McPerth]

Secondly, will starships armed thusly stand a chance against ships with beam weapons?

I'd say no. Let mi quote again this old post of mine as example:

Let's see salvo results:

to make numbers easy, let's imagine your 20 missile bays against 20 PA turrets (as both use a hardpoint each, though I guess, due to size, a ship could bear more PA turrets than bays). In both cases 16 bearing:

Missiles barrage: 384 - nuclear missile - long - 2

Against an armor 10 ship, in all cases crew quality 3 and FC +2 8maximum for TL A):

Missiles modifier: -10 armor, +2 dice/weapon, +3 crew, +2 FC, - (1d6-1¹+1) sandcasters, -(1d6-2¹+1) for lasers= -(2 + (2d6-1)), so, -(2d6+1). So, assuming average dice, no damage (as the dice for PD will offset barrage roll and still leave a -1 result).

I asume PD is under 90% of missiles in both cases​

Of course, a lucky missile barrage can be devastating (both PD rolls being 1, so a total of -3 and boxes on the barrage roll would inflict 150%, so 576 damage points, But you need a barrage roll 5 over the PD rolls to inflict any damage (I leave the numbers to anyone else). And again, against fighters things go even worse.

Of course, torpedoes may have different numbers (depending on TL), but are still subject to PD fire.

 

[Condottiere]

Radiation should fry the missiles' little brains.

 

[mike wightman]

Not if it's properly armoured and shielded...

 

[Brandon C]

Radiation should fry the missiles' little brains.

The RAW do not address nuclear missiles in the point defense role.

 

[McPerth]

The RAW do not address nuclear missiles in the point defense role.

But if you allow railguns to also be used as PD (as you say in the OP, and BTW, see that sandcasters already can in MgT1:HG), they would probably add another die to the defensive DM, making missiles et al. even more useless.

And I guess you don't intend them to be used as PD against beams :devil:...

 

[Brandon C]

Hmm, I left this out. Pop cap on a world is 8, which serves to limit ship (and fleet) size. So, largest warships are 6000 tons and there are few of those, with most heavy capital ships in the 3000 to 5000 ton range. The barrage rules will not be used.

 

[McPerth]

Space combat is dominated by 40 dT fighters. The best weapon is Particle.

Why 40 dtons? even 10 dtons fighters are quite effective in MgT1...

Hmm, I left this out. Pop cap on a world is 8, which serves to limit ship (and fleet) size. So, largest warships are 6000 tons and there are few of those, with most heavy capital ships in the 3000 to 5000 ton range. The barrage rules will not be used.

See that even a 3000 dtons ships will have 30 turrets, and several of them would make you quite busy rolling dice if they fight...

Also, for missiles, even 8-9 points of armor for shi`ps make them nearly useless (,even if the effect level is added¹, as they just do 1d6 damage), and huclear ones are rendered quite useless too with the nucñlear dampers as shown in CB...

Of course, the torpedoes are useful (mostly the bomb pump ones, as they reduce efficacy of PD), but they are expensive and large, so you will fire less of them...

And about railguns, they may be useful if you can reach short range, but you will be subject to enemy fire in the meanwhile.

And, of course, if the enemy launches thir PB armed fighters against you before you're in range, you'll have to use those weapons against them (probably not the best ones for the role)...

 

[Brandon C]

And, of course, if the enemy launches thir PB armed fighters against you before you're in range, you'll have to use those weapons against them (probably not the best ones for the role)...

Okay, so basically Earthforce vs the Mimbari, but without an actual TL edge.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Why 40 dtons? even 10 dtons fighters are quite effective in MgT1...

40 dT fighters can carry Particle barbettes, the smallest weapon with a good chance of penetrating heavy armour. With 5G performance (required by the particle barbette) they get a bit of space over which you can fill with hull reinforcement, making the fighters very difficult to kill.

The 10 dT fighter can do neither of these things, as far as I can remember.


Without the dreaded barrage rule torpedoes might be dangerous. In larger engagements a single ship's point defence should be easy to overload. Point Defence Networks should take care of that problem.

The threat of torpedoes would force enemy ships to devote a proportion of their hardpoints to point defence. Unfortunately torpedoes are rather easy to kill.

 

[kilemall]

I would think there is a possibility of having a general cultural agreement not to use the particle/meson weapons as 'humanitarian' given their radiation-spewing ways.

 

[Condottiere]

With Mongoose Second, you now have to close to ... close range for firmpointy installed weapon systems; no exceptions.

 

[McPerth]

40 dT fighters can carry Particle barbettes, the smallest weapon with a good chance of penetrating heavy armour. With 5G performance (required by the particle barbette) they get a bit of space over which you can fill with hull reinforcement, making the fighters very difficult to kill.

The 10 dT fighter can do neither of these things, as far as I can remember.


Without the dreaded barrage rule torpedoes might be dangerous. In larger engagements a single ship's point defence should be easy to overload. Point Defence Networks should take care of that problem.

The threat of torpedoes would force enemy ships to devote a proportion of their hardpoints to point defence. Unfortunately torpedoes are rather easy to kill.

10 dton fighters may carry PB turrets, that coupled with good FC and crew can as well damage any ship, and you can carry more of them.

 

[pendragonman]

Based on my vague recollection of MgT: No.

Space combat is dominated by 40 dT fighters. The best weapon is Particle.

In the small combat system Meson bays were good.

The particle size is not defined. So the particle weapons could be Gatling guns. Or Gatling rail guns if you prefer.

 

[McPerth]

I would think there is a possibility of having a general cultural agreement not to use the particle/meson weapons as 'humanitarian' given their radiation-spewing ways.

If so, the same agreement would apply to Fusion Guns, Nuclear missiles, Meson weapons, Nuclear and bomb pumped laser (afetr all they are nukes) torpedoes, etc...

 

[whartung]

The fundamental issue is whether the light speed weapons (whether they be lasers, PA, Meson Guns, "blasters", etc.) can significantly outrange the physical weapons. If they can, then the physical weapons will be sorely outmatched. The ships will be able to move out of the way, while the light speed weapons can't be outmaneuvered.

And light speed point defense weapons will eat anything it can track.

 

[steventirey1985]

10 dton fighters may carry PB turrets, that coupled with good FC and crew can as well damage any ship, and you can carry more of them.

Unless I read the rules wrong, they can't in 1st edition. High Guard page 61 gives us the limits on number of energy weapons based on power plant size. Size A-F power plants can't support energy weapons. Sizes G-K can support 1.

Page 59 gives us the chart that shows rating numbers based on the power plant size code and the ship size. A 10 ton ship is limited to plant/drive sizes A-F. It can't mount a power plant large enough to support any energy weapon.

The 2nd edition rules allow it, assuming you allow particle beam turrets in the first place. They have been moved to the High Technology chapter instead of the regular design sequence.

 

[McPerth]

Unless I read the rules wrong, they can't in 1st edition. High Guard page 61 gives us the limits on number of energy weapons based on power plant size. Size A-F power plants can't support energy weapons. Sizes G-K can support 1.

Page 59 gives us the chart that shows rating numbers based on the power plant size code and the ship size. A 10 ton ship is limited to plant/drive sizes A-F. It can't mount a power plant large enough to support any energy weapon.

I'm afraid you read it wrong. A ship/craft can have a PP of any size that fits it, just a too large plant does not give any advantage. So, a 10 dton fighter may well have a sG power plant, just it does not give it more performance than an sF one (but allows it to carry an energy weapon).

Look at page 95 of the same MgT1:HG and you will see a 10 dton fighter powered by a sG planet and armed with energy weapons.