Some Interesting Military Data

[BlackBat242]

Will wonders never cease!

Of course, that General Order was obviously removed soon thereafter, as too many skilled cooks were being enlisted as cooks for all of them to be grabbed up by the officers' messes/senior officer's staffs (can't have the common soldier getting used to high-quality food, now can we?).

So we then saw the founding of the Army Cook School, where unskilled enlistees/draftees were taught to screw up the food in the approved regulation manner.

 

[JimMarn]

My dad had some skills as a cook before reenlisting in the Army. He went back in as infantry and due to a knee injury changed to a cook trainee.

About halfway through cook school he told mom and I one day that most of the guys in there couldn't burn water even if they tried. He hoped he was never in a unit that had to eat the food they fixed.

After we got transferred back to Texas, he would come home after cooking for a regiment, and cook a big meal for us. Mom and I would tease him about forgetting to divide by thrty thousand when he looked at the cookbooks mom had.

 

[aramis]

If you are enlisting a man as a cook, it is quite a good idea to make sure that he can, in fact, cook.

Somewhere along the line, the Army seems to have forgotten that principle. (Now, they teach cooks to cook. The training regimen was very different.)

 

[Timerover51]

MASH & MIG Ops-Korean War

MASH operations: Korea

Efficient utilization of the limited number of helicopters, whose primary mission was the rescue of downed airmen, proved the most stubborn problem of all. After many different methods were attempted, the best solution was basing the available helicopters at the Mobile Army Surgical Hospital, and authorizing the Surgeon-in-charge to dispatch them in response to valid requests from the front lines. Only those patients were carried who were wounded so badly that surface evacuation would have jeopardized their chances for recovery. In the early months of the war, the few aircraft available for this mission had to be operated "around the clock" to carry the many patients requiring air evacuation.

Extracted from the Far East Air Force Report on the Korean War, Chapter
4

As I was never a MASH enthusiast, I was wondering if this was ever shown on the show, with the MASH CO dispatching the helicopters?

MIG covert ops:

Another operation of interest was conducted in the spring of 1951, when the Air Proving Ground Command service-tested a YH-19 in Korea. Air Intelligence needed information on the MIG-15. When a MIG-15 wreck was observed in the Sinanju area. plans were made to salvage as much of it as possible, using YH-19 as the means of transportation. Under constant fighter cover, the YH-19, carrying a team of salvage experts in addition to the crew, staged through Cho-do Island to the scene of the crash. In 45 minutes the salvage team removed elected engine and airframe components from the wreckage. These were subsequently forwarded to the Z1 [Zion of Interior, i.e. the United States] for scientific analysis. Other than minor flak damage to the helicopter on the return from the crash site, the mission was unopposed by enemy action.

Extracted from the Far East Air Force Report on the Korean War, Chapter 4

The comment in brackets was added by me explanation for what might be a puzzling acronym for some people.

I just got these CDs in the mail from the Air Force Historical Research Agency, and there is a lot of data in them that was formerly Classified. This goes with the formerly Secret report on the USAF Operations in the Korean Conflict. There is a lot of good data in these on weapons effects and accuracy, along with a lot of Air Force hype. It is not quite a bad though as some of the United States Strategic Bombing Survey reports. Some of those are pretty bad.

 

[whartung]

As I was never a MASH enthusiast, I was wondering if this was ever shown on the show, with the MASH CO dispatching the helicopters?

No, it's not really very interesting story telling.

The wounded simply showed up (via truck, jeep, or helicopter) when necessary for the episode.

In fact, you almost never saw the Colonels (Blake or Potter) do any particular "medicine" save for simply being in the OR gowned up over a patient. In contrast to Hawkeye et al, who's stories were laced with medicine-y plot lines.

 

[Timerover51]

No, it's not really very interesting story telling.

The wounded simply showed up (via truck, jeep, or helicopter) when necessary for the episode.

In fact, you almost never saw the Colonels (Blake or Potter) do any particular "medicine" save for simply being in the OR gowned up over a patient. In contrast to Hawkeye et al, who's stories were laced with medicine-y plot lines.

The odd thing is that it could have been, as the number of copters was limited, and the MASH Chief Surgeon had to make the decision as to which unit to send them too if there were more requests for helicopter evacuation than they had helicopters for.

 

[whartung]

The odd thing is that it could have been, as the number of copters was limited, and the MASH Chief Surgeon had to make the decision as to which unit to send them too if there were more requests for helicopter evacuation than they had helicopters for.

Not really, as it's not good drama. Sure, the Colonel has to make a decision, but the artifacts of that decision are abstract and not tangible.

The helicopter(s) take off, Go Away for a awhile, and then come back. The Colonel otherwise has no real agency in the event. So, not interesting TV.

Also, MASH was not a procedural show like most medical dramas. It was a comedy with social themes.

 

[Condottiere]

There is one account from later in the Hundred Years War, that the town was besieged by the English in 1369, and that, when they seemed to be on the point of departure having abandoned the siege, one resident decided to show her backside to the English to demonstrate her contempt for them.

Unfortunately, this insult had completely the reverse effect and the English surged into the town, destroying ramparts and town and putting the population to the sword. The moral drawn from this story locally is: "Ladies, before showing your backside, check carefully that it is not to the English."

https://books.google.ch/books?id=y6g...0siege&f=false


Roger Wilco

 

[Timerover51]

There is one account from later in the Hundred Years War, that the town was besieged by the English in 1369, and that, when they seemed to be on the point of departure having abandoned the siege, one resident decided to show her backside to the English to demonstrate her contempt for them.

Unfortunately, this insult had completely the reverse effect and the English surged into the town, destroying ramparts and town and putting the population to the sword. The moral drawn from this story locally is: "Ladies, before showing your backside, check carefully that it is not to the English."

https://books.google.ch/books?id=y6g...0siege&f=false


Roger Wilco

The link does not work. All I get is a 404 error.

 

[Timerover51]

Considering that the Chicago weather is carrying on with its normal Winter antics, I thought that this might be an interesting bit of military trivia. From 1871 to 1891, the U.S. Army Signal Service/Corps did the weather reporting and forecasting for the country. Then in 1891 the duty was transferred to the U.S. Department of Agriculture.

The Signal Service of the Army of the United States, as at present constituted, is an organization upon which is devolved the two-fold duty (1) of providing for the Army an efficient corps charged with the work of opening and maintaining communication, at the front, in time of war, and (2) of noting the development and progress of storms and other meteorological phenomena and reporting the same to the public with predictions of probable future atmospheric conditions. . . . . . . . .

An economic feature of the Weather Bureau is that it is a military service. All its observational work is done by officers and enlisted men of the Army, and all its official publications are prepared under authority, and with the regularity and dispatch to be had only under military discipline. The military relations of the Signal Service have been found by experience to give it great advantages in extending its network of stations over the sparsely populated territories of the country, from which many of the most indispensable meteorological reports are obtained. The observers of the Signal Corps are trained not only in the art and practice of military field signalling, but in the ordinary army drill and rules and habits of discipline ; they constitute a part of the regular military establishment of the nation, always ready for active service. Occupied in time of peace with scientific work of acknowledged value, the cost of their maintenance is but a small additional burden upon the country, fully requited by their meteorological services to it. Experience has shown that arduous meteorological labors such as they perform have not been secured from any civil corps. As the Signal Service observers must report several times a day to the Washington office, eacn regular report-serves in effect as a telegraphic roll-call of all the stations spread over the country from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and from the lakes to the Gulf of Mexico, insuring promptitude, vigilance, and steadiness in the entire Signal Corps.

The above quote comes from the History of the Signal Service, Washington City, 1884. Emphasis is added.

Early in 1891, in view of the impending transfer of the meteorological work of the Government from the Signal Service to the newly created Weather Bureau, and without any suspicion that he would be called on to carry out his own suggestions, the writer published in the American Meteorological Journal a programme of improvements and expansions in the work. These were made with especial reference to the needs of farmers, and related to the following points : The improvement of the forecasts—their more complete distribution, especially to the farming communities^ the general dissemination of information about the Weather Bureau—its objects and methods, what could or could not be properly expected of it; the compilation and publication of the climatic data of the United States, especially the data of use in the practical pursuit or study of agriculture—permitted by the accumulation of twenty or twenty-five years of observations of uniform character; the study of the scientific theory of meteorology with especial reference to the improvement of its practical application.

The above statement was written by the first head of the Weather Bureau, MARK W. HARRINGTON, Chief of Weather Bureau, U. S. Department of Agriculture, and appears in the YEARBOOK OF THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE., 1894, WASHINGTON: GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 1895.

Both books may be found on archives.org for those interested in further reading on the subject. The later Yearbooks or Handbooks of the Department of Agriculture have sections dealing with the weather on a fairly regular basis, as the group most interested in the weather is the farmers.

Edit Note: One more bit of military trivia from the History of the Signal Service.

It was not until November 4, 1870, that the Chief Signal Officer was able to issue weather bulletins. On that day, at twenty-four stations in the United States systematized simultaneous observations of the weather by trained Signal Service observers were first taken and telegraphed to the central office at Washington. The same day the bulletins made up from these reports were prepared and telegraphed by the Chief Signal Officer to more than twenty cities.

Italics in the original. Note the date and number of reporting stations.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Question...

Considering that the Chicago weather is carrying on with its normal Winter antics, I thought that this might be an interesting bit of military trivia. From 1871 to 1891, the U.S. Army Signal Service/Corps did the weather reporting and forecasting for the country. Then in 1891 the duty was transferred to the U.S. Department of Agriculture.



The above quote comes from the History of the Signal Service, Washington City, 1884. Emphasis is added.



The above statement was written by the first head of the Weather Bureau, MARK W. HARRINGTON, Chief of Weather Bureau, U. S. Department of Agriculture, and appears in the YEARBOOK OF THE UNITED STATES
DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE., 1894, WASHINGTON: GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 1895.

Both books may be found on archives.org for those interested in further reading on the subject. The later Yearbooks or Handbooks of the Department of Agriculture have sections dealing with the weather on a fairly regular basis, as the group most interested in the weather is the farmers.

Edit Note: One more bit of military trivia from the History of the Signal Service.



Italics in the original. Note the date and number of reporting stations.

Given all this data, what service would this fall under in a TU or would it be a separate service, or part of another such as the Port Authority or Scouts?

I already have an Imperial Army Navy in my ATU so adding odd but useful old school Age of Sail stuff is my jam. Thanks, this thread has been in interesting read so far.

 

[Timerover51]

If you want to get inside the head of someone facing battle, the following quote from Robert Sherrod, a war correspondent who landed with the Marines the first day at Tarawa is hard to beat. It appears at the bottom of page 82 in his book.

I was quite certain that this was my last night on earth.

His book, Tarawa-The Story of a Battle, can be downloaded from archives.org. If you want to find out what goes through men's minds in the middle of one of the nastiest fights in the Pacific War, I would recommend it.

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.59550/page/n6

More thoughts of Sherrod on the evening of the first day of Tarawa.

For the first time since morning, I was really scared—this was worse than wading into the machine-gun fire, because the unknown was going to happen under cover of darkness. I tried to joke about it. “Well, Bill,” I said, “it hasn’t been such a bad life.” “Yeah,” he said, “but I’m so damned young to die.”

My knees shook. My whole body trembled like jelly. I peered into the darkness over the seawall, seeing nothing, hearing nothing except an occasional shot from a Jap sniper’s rifle. But, I reasoned, it hasn’t been a bad life at that. Suppose I don’t live until morning? I have already lived fully and quite satisfactorily.

 

[JimMarn]

I searched for it, but I couldn't find anything on the coastal artillery that was there in 1941.

 

[Enoki]

I searched for it, but I couldn't find anything on the coastal artillery that was there in 1941.

Tarawa didn't start getting a defensive build up until after the first Mankin atoll raid by the US. It was that raid that alerted the Japanese to the fact the US was intent on retaking islands. Up to that point the Japanese had occupied most islands they had taken with like a battalion of infantry and built an airfield.
After Mankin atoll, the Japanese started moving in coast defense guns (usually no larger than 127mm and often smaller) along with building bunkers and putting up anti-invasion measures.

 

[Timerover51]

I searched for it, but I couldn't find anything on the coastal artillery that was there in 1941.

Tarawa was a British Territory in 1941 with no coastal defenses or military presence whatsoever. If you want to get information on the defenses of Tarawa, you need to go to the U.S. Marine Corps monograph on the invasion of Tarawa. That was on one of the Marine Corps websites, but right now, the Marine Corps is changing things around, so it is not readily accessible. I have the monograph in hard copy, in the consolidated Marine Corps history of the Pacific War, and also as a PDF file. If you want to download the consolidated history that includes the Tarawa monograph, you need to go here for now.

https://www.usmcu.edu/Portals/218/H...PCN_19000262600.pdf?ver=2018-10-30-092522-133

The hard copy of the monograph has the best map, in color, of the coastal defenses, including the location of the four 8 inch guns that the Japanese had deployed.

Edit Note: The Makin Atoll raid took place in August of 1942 by two Marine Raider companies carried by the submarines Nautilus and Argonaut.

 

[JimMarn]

Tarawa didn't start getting a defensive build up until after the first Mankin atoll raid by the US. It was that raid that alerted the Japanese to the fact the US was intent on retaking islands. Up to that point the Japanese had occupied most islands they had taken with like a battalion of infantry and built an airfield.
After Mankin atoll, the Japanese started moving in coast defense guns (usually no larger than 127mm and often smaller) along with building bunkers and putting up anti-invasion measures.

My apologies. I was thinking about Bataan's coastal artillery. My dad was in the 37mm Anti-Aircraft group.

edit: He was in the Army. Maybe in one of the National Guard units that were activated and sent there in either 1940 or 1941.

 

[Timerover51]

Greetings Jim, I have some information on the performance of the coast artillery in the anti-aircraft role if you are interested. It appears that they did a pretty good job out there.

 

[JimMarn]

Greetings Jim, I have some information on the performance of the coast artillery in the anti-aircraft role if you are interested. It appears that they did a pretty good job out there.

I would be interested. I'm not certain which unit he was in. One source says 202nd Coastal Artillery, and he joined the New Mexico National Guard unit that was activated and sent to the Phiilipines. But my online searches say the 202nd was out of Illinois.

From the one book on the Phillipines that even mentions them, the 37mm ammo was stored in a building with a leaky roof.

According to the author, only 1 in 7 rounds functioned by leaving the barrel.

I don't know much about artillery ammo, but it would seem to me that visual inspection would notice corrosion if it was that bad.

 

[BlackBat242]

But the choice was likely down to:

1. Use those corroded shells and hope a few work, and maybe we can hold off the Japs long enough to get resupplied.

2. Don't use them, and get captured/killed by the Japs.


It is quite probable that no one had noticed the leaky roof for a while after the shells were stored there (if it didn't start leaking later), and I can tell you from personal experience that things corrode FAST in the Philippines during the rainy season (and even in the "not really rainy yet, just wait a few weeks" season).

 

[JimMarn]

I'm sure they did the best they could.

Some years ago I saw a short movie, might have been in Navy boot camp, on how a jammed projectile is pulled from the breach. Something small caliber, probably a M-2 .50 or an M-1 Garand.

One of my high school buddies was in Viet Nam, he told me gear rotted quickly there. He saw leather rot in less than a month. Something like that. I asked him what they used, I had had a pair of leather combat boots from surplus I used camping back in the early 1960s. He told me they had switched to canvas boots that drained better but they didn't last long either. No way to check with him as he passed away about 10 years ago.