Replenish life support on a primitive planet

[Straybow]

The real engineering challenge is that after 40 years of gaming nobody knows what "life support" materials or equipment would need replacement after every trip for a cost of kCr2/capita. That's equivalent to 500 hours of standard labor, or about $8000.


I rationalize that MM and company sat down to think what costs contribute to the ticket price and just assigned kCr2 as a guess. It should have been refined on the second calculation of costs, but instead got engraved in stone and couldn't be changed.

 

[kilemall]

Refined?

I think this is one of those less is more situations, where leaving it open to interpretation allows for more referee storytelling think through.
I personally like 'knowing' details of how things work so I can have story hooks and convey obstructions, but the next guy may like glossing that over or just saying 'you have an extra week of life support after jump, you'll have to refuel and be two days short on your emergency jump, what do you do'.

I've always figured life support involved disposables like CO2 scrubbers (hyperalgae in my biotech-oriented universe), food, occasionally swapping out the emergency oxygen, water reclamation supplies and leftover waste sludge removal, etc.
If you extend the meaning of life support to the grav plate system, perahps a consumable there.
It could also mean the occasional inspection and replacement of basic piping, pumps, seals, emergency bubbles/pressure suits, etc.- small and intermittent breakdowns yet critical to do before the next yearly maintenance. Or pushing it, entertainment systems content refreshes.

If I was running a full TL15 range universe, I would probably also seek to define differences between TL life support at least on the backend, factoring in ever more clever technologies, some of which are utterly superior/flexible and others push too far and are unreliable.


But in each case the life support costs for each TL would have to come in at Cr2000, because that's what the ticketing economy will bear. If you have some super-duper life support systems, or at the very least extreme gourmet for high passage, you need a relook at your ticketing to support such a move.

 

[whartung]

It should have been refined on the second calculation of costs, but instead got engraved in stone and couldn't be changed.

Well, again, still, they're not trying to write "Sim StarLiner".

I'm pretty sure most players don't want to keep track of how old their carbon scrubbers are, how well the Saltine Crackers balance with the Soup inventory, or whether the they seem to, again, have too many plastic knives and not enough spoons.

"Roll against Steward to see if the crew managed to not run out of TP this trip."

Fun times in the Imperium!

 

[kilemall]

Heh, garbage disposal in a gravitics universe might mean a trash compactor measuring presses in the megapascals.


And voiding waste into space or planets is probably illegal- biological hazard that could contaminate and ruin ecologies.

 

[whartung]

And voiding waste into space or planets is probably illegal- biological hazard that could contaminate and ruin ecologies.

Traveller ships have enough oomph that they could probably, routinely, put waste in to an eventually solar intercept, or toss it in to a gas giant (handy during refueling).

 

[kilemall]

Traveller ships have enough oomph that they could probably, routinely, put waste in to an eventually solar intercept, or toss it in to a gas giant (handy during refueling).

Anger the Ammonia Gods at your peril.

 

[Straybow]

But it isn't like that at all.

I think this is one of those less is more situations, where leaving it open to interpretation allows for more referee storytelling think through.

I personally like 'knowing' details of how things work so I can have story hooks and convey obstructions, but the next guy may like glossing that over or just saying 'you have an extra week of life support after jump, you'll have to refuel and be two days short on your emergency jump, what do you do'.

I've always figured life support involved disposables like CO2 scrubbers (hyperalgae in my biotech-oriented universe), food, occasionally swapping out the emergency oxygen, water reclamation supplies and leftover waste sludge removal, etc.
If you extend the meaning of life support to the grav plate system, perahps a consumable there.
It could also mean the occasional inspection and replacement of basic piping, pumps, seals, emergency bubbles/pressure suits, etc.- small and intermittent breakdowns yet critical to do before the next yearly maintenance. Or pushing it, entertainment systems content refreshes.

If I was running a full TL15 range universe, I would probably also seek to define differences between TL life support at least on the backend, factoring in ever more clever technologies, some of which are utterly superior/flexible and others push too far and are unreliable.

But in each case the life support costs for each TL would have to come in at Cr2000, because that's what the ticketing economy will bear. If you have some super-duper life support systems, or at the very least extreme gourmet for high passage, you need a relook at your ticketing to support such a move.

No, there are extensive lists of comparable items in Traveller. For Cr2000 (about $8k) for every stateroom you could remove and replace all life support equipment, except maybe grav plates. There is just no way that consumables could reach that cost level.

 

[Straybow]

Do you play Traveller?

Well, again, still, they're not trying to write "Sim StarLiner".

I'm pretty sure most players don't want to keep track of how old their carbon scrubbers are, how well the Saltine Crackers balance with the Soup inventory, or whether the they seem to, again, have too many plastic knives and not enough spoons.

"Roll against Steward to see if the crew managed to not run out of TP this trip."

Fun times in the Imperium!

Actually, it is Sim Starliner. Otherwise there'd just be mortgage and maintenance charges, with all those nitpicky costs folded in, while fuel and crew pay would be specifically calculated expenses. You'd just land, grab a pre-generated cargo and passenger load, and go. You could just watch it on a computer screen and click "Yes" to continue.

 

[Straybow]

And voiding waste into space or planets is probably illegal- biological hazard that could contaminate and ruin ecologies.

You're in a ship that has a fusion power plant. Waste voided into the exhaust would be turned into plasma, the most effective sterilization possible.

 

[kilemall]

But it isn't like that at all.

No, there are extensive lists of comparable items in Traveller. For Cr2000 (about $8k) for every stateroom you could remove and replace all life support equipment, except maybe grav plates. There is just no way that consumables could reach that cost level.

All life support equipment? I think likely not, and that this consumable list you refer to is not exhaustive enough to cover everything since most of the listed equipment that could be relevant are more expeditionary/personal equipment.

Speaking of which, a CT Vacc Suit is Cr10000, if you have to replace those things every four years per rated passenger/crew that is Cr100 per trip. So right there, a major cost, not counting emergency bubbles and likely extra light pressure suits in every room.

I would tend to charge grav plates to M-drive tonnage.

Who said it's just consumables? Clear out for sanitation systems, flushing and related services from the starport, constant wear and tear, costs of maintaining emergency supplies, etc. etc. etc. along with yes food.

Maybe starports normally provide stateroom cleanout service to antiseptically clean every spot and piece of linen, like airliners or rail services have to, particularly the latter for sleepers.


We also know from Tarsus the cost and dtonnage involved for massive month/yearlong/large scale life support supply, whatever it is is small and expensive.

I'm not terribly worried about it. If you enjoy that and/or is important for your running of your universe, fine, you can outline it, other people can roll with the cost/space and just go, but I don't see where GDW somehow made some big misstep not quantifying all this as you seem to be saying.


Oh one other thought- CT staterooms cost Cr500000, some very expensive real estate. The bridges don't cost that much per ton- only drives, weapons and computers cost more.

Some of that is going to be clever comforts crammed into small spaces, but a lot IMO is a good deal of life support, particularly in allowing for shirtsleeve environments to be maintained safely in space, working or passenger. Life support is mission critical low tolerance for failure, so we can expect an overabundance of replacing before MTBF.

 

[kilemall]

You're in a ship that has a fusion power plant. Waste voided into the exhaust would be turned into plasma, the most effective sterilization possible.

Point taken, but I'm not particularly keen on running garbage through my power system. I do believe in fusion exhaust and reaction drives as part of my milieu, others may not. And again, story trumps tech- if it's important for trash/biohazard handling to be a plot element, then it is not fusion/sterilized.


Heh, bigger problem venting garbage plasma, even that has to be not dumped near planets lest one contributes to the orbital junk problem.

 

[Carlobrand]

... I'm not particularly keen on running garbage through my power system. ...

Really? I found the thought of making some player engineer go in and clean the carbon glazing off the sewage atomization pipes particularly amusing.

 

[whartung]

Do you play Traveller?

Actually, it is Sim Starliner. Otherwise there'd just be mortgage and maintenance charges, with all those nitpicky costs folded in, while fuel and crew pay would be specifically calculated expenses. You'd just land, grab a pre-generated cargo and passenger load, and go. You could just watch it on a computer screen and click "Yes" to continue.

If clicking "YES" is all I need to do to get my ship to the system where I can land on the planet in the grass filled meadow, underneath a pink sky, 2 suns, (yet at 75 degrees F and clean, fresh air) with exotic creatures staring at me from the woodline, and that strangely abandoned deactivated Research Lab I was tasked to investigate, then you bet I'll grab the mouse and click "YES".

 

[Straybow]

All life support equipment? I think likely not, and that this consumable list you refer to is not exhaustive enough to cover everything since most of the listed equipment that could be relevant are more expeditionary/personal equipment.

Speaking of which, a CT Vacc Suit is Cr10000, if you have to replace those things every four years per rated passenger/crew that is Cr100 per trip. So right there, a major cost, not counting emergency bubbles and likely extra light pressure suits in every room.

That's exactly the point. The environmental system for a stateroom doesn't have to be small, lightweight, flexible, etc. It can be clunky and bulky and way less than kCr10. Yes, it could probably all be replaced for Cr2000 (about $8k in today's money).


We're talking about about a spacefaring economy, where all such equipment and service is as common as an oil change here in N America and Europe. Cr100 per room would be average, with annual replacement of filters and seals being somewhat more and rolled into engineering overhaul expenses.

 

[Carlobrand]

Add Cr100 for groceries.

 

[Condottiere]

You can send in a spaceship for detailing, since if it's not a bunch of Roombas let loose on the interior, I doubt that the company contracted will need highly qualified personnel to carry it out, just conscientious ones.