How many tankers and tenders per fleet?

[whartung]

No plan survives contact with the enemy.

Any passing enemy raiding force might destroy them.

Sure, but a plan is a plan. Experience and local conditions will dictate the details.

If you want to be sure to be able to retreat the same way you came you basically have to take the tankers with you. And then you have the constant problem of protecting the tankers.

My primary quibble with this is the sheer difficulty of having tankers able to out jump AND refuel the fleet at the same time. If you plan to abandon them in place on retreat (a not unreasonable approach, albeit expensive), then it can work ok. Jump in, refuel combat elements, if you take the GG then refuel everyone. If driven off, move the crews and scuttle the tankers and jump out.

Because the other premise is simply that fleets won't engage each other unless they have nothing to lose, or know that they can win. If a fleet pops in to a more heavily defended system, than they anticipated, AND they have the ability to jump out -- they'll jump. Unless they have a gross abundance of ships compared to the opponent, the game a attrition is VERY expensive in Traveller. We saw this even in the Rebellion when the fleets essentially consumed each other with little in the pipeline to replenish the forces. Ships take so long and are so expensive, it's trivial to outpace supply in a war of attrition.

If you are a day or two away from the GG you can reach the next GG over faster than the defending force. If you jumped a scout next to each GG you know what defences there are.

Why commit the intruding fleet without a peek at the defending force?

Of course you're going to peek -- that's why I mentioned its an intelligence game. However, by the time the scout jumps in, jumps out, and the fleet jumps your data is already 3 weeks old. So can't be sure of anything.

You simply cannot defend several possible refuelling points in every system. If you try you will divide you fleet into small penny packets that are easily defeated in detail. If you place one cruiser by every refuelling point, all you get is a dead cruiser when a raiding force passes by.

Which goes to the point of not defending them at all, unless you have a single GG system at a particular astrographic choke point. Why bother. The scattering of forces is a major problem as the large fleets do "win the day", and quickly, and cheaply. Another reason maneuver is less important in Traveller.

Agreed, but raiders have their own problems. A month or two into enemy territory means months away from a shipyard that you will need after every engagement.

Depends on your fleet train and how soft your raiding targets are.

Why would warships be much better just because you call them SDBs? Large SDBs are just demounted battle-riders.

Well, that's my point -- I don't think they would be. Some assert that SDBs have some bit of extra capability that lets them be effective above their weight. I'm not sure I hold to that myself.

I've always felt that at a strategic level, each system should be broken up in to the main world and the Gas Giants as potential destinations. When you jump a fleet in, you can target any of those destinations, and you could individually defend each of them. But beyond that, they don't interact. I'd allow sub-light ships to move from one destination to another each weekly turn, as desired by the owner.

Someday I'll dig out my copy of FFW and play with it, using those rules.

 

[McPerth]

Another point to think about is how tankers suport might work.

I mean, one can asume that tankers may serve (so to say) as drop tanks, moving away from the supported ship while he has the power in its capacitors, before jumping (I guess there wil lbe time enough to go farther than the ships jumping danger zone). AFAIK this is neither allowed nor forbiden by the rules (again, being quite uncelar about details)...

If so, they would allow the warfleet to reach its target with full tanks, and so they could jump directly to the main target, hoping to catch the enemy surprised (at least not in general quarters), but able to jump away if resistence is too strong.

 

[mike wightman]

Why wouldn't there be a civilian version of this so merchants don't need to carry jump fuel internally...

 

[McPerth]

Why wouldn't there be a civilian version of this so merchants don't need to carry jump fuel internally...

Well, references to J6 linners with drop tanks are in JTAS, IIRC... Using Tankers instead of drop tanks would be another step, if posible (as I said, Rules don't talk about it, neither allowing nor denying it, AFAIK at least).

I guess that, despite the cost of the tankers (that wouldn't need to be jump capable in this case) would be lower on the long run...

 

[Condottiere]

It would take decades to develop the doctrine and get the correct force composition.

None of which would be secret from likely near peer adversaries.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Another point to think about is how tankers suport might work.

I mean, one can asume that tankers may serve (so to say) as drop tanks, moving away from the supported ship while he has the power in its capacitors, before jumping (I guess there wil lbe time enough to go farther than the ships jumping danger zone). AFAIK this is neither allowed nor forbiden by the rules (again, being quite uncelar about details)...

Fuel must be internal, with an explicit exception for drop tanks.

Tanker operations are briefly described in TCS:

Streamlined or partially streamlined ships are also capable of refueling from a gas giant during battle. The ship must be part of the reserve during the operation, and if interrupted is considered not refueled. One pass through the gas giant's atmosphere is sufficient to fill all tanks and takes 7 turns. Fuel may be transferred between ships in two turns.

 

[flykiller]

Why wouldn't there be a civilian version of this so merchants don't need to carry jump fuel internally...

drew up an executive transport liner that did exactly this ....

Fuel may be transferred between ships in two turns.

isn't that exactly how long a normal jump takes?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

My primary quibble with this is the sheer difficulty of having tankers able to out jump AND refuel the fleet at the same time.

Quite, tankers needs to be huge, and hence very expensive.

If you plan to abandon them in place on retreat (a not unreasonable approach, albeit expensive), then it can work ok. Jump in, refuel combat elements, if you take the GG then refuel everyone. If driven off, move the crews and scuttle the tankers and jump out.

Planning to abandon the tankers would be very expensive, so need a very tempting target.

Because the other premise is simply that fleets won't engage each other unless they have nothing to lose, or know that they can win.

Quite, it would be very difficult to force a decisive battle.

Of course you're going to peek -- that's why I mentioned its an intelligence game. However, by the time the scout jumps in, jumps out, and the fleet jumps your data is already 3 weeks old. So can't be sure of anything.

Quite, the intelligence would be two weeks old; one week for the scout jumping back, and one week for the fleet jumping in.

But I meant you jump a scout to every refuelling point simultaneously with the main fleet so you know immediately witch point is defended by how much.

Besides the defender can't really afford to continuously reshuffle the defending force, since that would risk that the attacker jumped in while the defending force was travelling between points.

Which goes to the point of not defending them at all, unless you have a single GG system at a particular astrographic choke point. Why bother. The scattering of forces is a major problem as the large fleets do "win the day", and quickly, and cheaply. Another reason maneuver is less important in Traveller.

Quite.

Well, that's my point -- I don't think they would be. Some assert that SDBs have some bit of extra capability that lets them be effective above their weight. I'm not sure I hold to that myself.

Agreed.

It seems we mostly agree.

I've always felt that at a strategic level, each system should be broken up in to the main world and the Gas Giants as potential destinations. When you jump a fleet in, you can target any of those destinations, and you could individually defend each of them. But beyond that, they don't interact. I'd allow sub-light ships to move from one destination to another each weekly turn, as desired by the owner.

Someday I'll dig out my copy of FFW and play with it, using those rules.

Sounds interesting.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

isn't that exactly how long a normal jump takes?

The fuel is consumed in few minutes, see JTAS#24.

 

[coliver988]

One possible option for the 'disposable tanker' is make the tankers more like a battle tender but instead of battle riders, just big fuel tanks. Jump in, drop the tanks, jump back out leaving the tanks for your fleet to refuel (or if you jump badly, for the enemy fleet to refuel...)

We already have disposable fuel tanks, just scale them up to fleet levels.

Not that I've ever played TCS or any High Guard combat so I cannot say if this is a good or bad option. But it would off-set the cost as mentioned by both Whartung and Another Dilbert.

 

[McPerth]

Fuel must be internal, with an explicit exception for drop tanks.

Tanker operations are briefly described in TCS:

Streamlined or partially streamlined ships are also capable of refueling from a gas giant during battle. The ship must be part of the reserve during the operation, and if interrupted is considered not refueled. One pass through the gas giant's atmosphere is sufficient to fill all tanks and takes 7 turns. Fuel may be transferred between ships in two turns.

The fuel is consumed in few minutes, see JTAS#24.

But yet, jump can take 2 turns, according HG, so, I guess the tankers might refill the tanks as fast as they are emptied to jump...

If so, the tankers use I told about would be feasible.

 

[McPerth]

You simply cannot defend several possible refuelling points in every system. If you try you will divide you fleet into small penny packets that are easily defeated in detail. If you place one cruiser by every refuelling point, all you get is a dead cruiser when a raiding force passes by.

But some defenses to each point might be worth...

If you have even some automatic defenses, let¡s say an automated, solar/battrey powered (after all, it will be expeted to have long time to recharge) deep meson gun in one of the GG moons might somewhat damage the intruding force. If they are a raiding squadron trying to perform deep penetration actions, how many dmaages can they afford just passing by?

And, as the raiding ships will not arrive al ltoguether, but in some span of time, some lucky shoots by the defenses might be quite damaging...

Even a monitor or two could be worth it, though they will not be always in General Qurters, and so will take a while more to react, forfeiting the non-simultaneous arrival advantage, but if they can damage some of the raiders, its loss (or heavy damage) can be worth it (thouhg their crews migh think otherwise).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

But yet, jump can take 2 turns, according HG, so, I guess the tankers might refill the tanks as fast as they are emptied to jump...

If so, the tankers use I told about would be feasible.

The full jump process might take two rounds, but the fuel is still consumed in a few hours, far faster than the tanker can transfer.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

But some defenses to each point might be worth...

Certainly, something cheap to prevent enemy couriers, scouts, and supply ships is worth it.

And, as the raiding ships will not arrive al ltoguether, but in some span of time, some lucky shoots by the defenses might be quite damaging...

If you arrive within range of a defended target that is fatal. You have to arrive a bit out of range, say a day, to collect your force before advancing on the GG.

 

[McPerth]

The full jump process might take two rounds, but the fuel is still consumed in a few hours, far faster than the tanker can transfer.

According HG, to jump, you need 2 x Jn * M/100 EPs. That means that non-military ships, that have PP not much larger (if at all) than its JD, take 2 turns (at least) to accumulate the power in the capacitors to jump.

So, while it probably may be done faster by ships with larger PP (like most military ones), in routine operations it's quite sure to asume it takes two turns to charge you capacitors, the same time needed to transfer the fuel.

So, nothing prevents you to be refilling your tanks from a tanker simultaneously, and jump with full tanks.

 

[McPerth]

If you arrive within range of a defended target that is fatal. You have to arrive a bit out of range, say a day, to collect your force before advancing on the GG.

That will slow your opperations by about 10-15%, adding a full day to refuelling operations. I've always seen FFW timing too fast, allowing streamlined ships to perform 1 jump/week without any delay (even if they fight a battle).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

According HG, to jump, you need 2 x Jn * M/100 EPs. That means that non-military ships, that have PP not much larger (if at all) than its JD, take 2 turns (at least) to accumulate the power in the capacitors to jump.

This power requirement is independent of jump fuel. It can come from anywhere, e.g. a black globe.

The jump fuel is still consumed in a few minutes when you jump.

 

[McPerth]

This power requirement is independent of jump fuel. It can come from anywhere, e.g. a black globe.

The jump fuel is still consumed in a few minutes when you jump.

But most ships have not BG, and need those two turns to produce the power.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

That will slow your opperations by about 10-15%, adding a full day to refuelling operations. I've always seen FFW timing too fast, allowing streamlined ships to perform 1 jump/week without any delay (even if they fight a battle).

It's absolutely necessary. If you arrive piecemeal in range of an enemy your fleet dies, basically without returning fire.

Even if you are a few hours out from an enemy they can close the distance while the first few ships arrive, then kill the rest as they arrive.

It's an easy way to lose to an inferior force.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

But most ships have not BG, and need those two turns to produce the power.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with the jump fuel.