Robots in Milieu 0.

[ManOfGrey]

For those who have run games using the Milieu 0 material, how much have robots showed up in your games?

And what would they, (or should they,) be like... especially since Milieu 0 limits its tech level to (around) TL-12. Do they roll around on wheels or treads, or are they more anthropomorphic? Are they dumb machines that can understand only a few simple commands, or can you have a conversation with them? Can some be mistaken for humans, or are they like the droids in Star Wars, and are obviously mechanical constructs?

And the big white elephant question... can they kill people? In the books they briefly mention a Sylean convention that prohibits armed robots. Is this a thing? Or does the burgeoning Imperium use warbots?

I'm curious about everyone's thoughts on the matter.

 

[Proneutron]

Or does the burgeoning Imperium use warbots?

I'm curious about everyone's thoughts on the matter.

Considering everything we know TODAY, the 3I would use "warbots". If for no other reason(s) that why we will shortly. At our TL today we have that capability and it is in progress as I type this.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

LBB8 says Low Autonomous robots become available at TL-12:

Low Autonomous: The robot can take independent action without direct commands and is able to understand simple inferences. Commands no longer need to be as explicit and the robot may be able to "'figure out what you meant". It can analyze data and arrive at some very simple obvious conclusions. However, robots with this program are not truly creative they cannot originate ideas on their own. This is not yet artificial intelligence. The robot remembers all data taken in by its sensors and can use the data to learn and gain "experience". The robot can improve the skill level of its application programs on its own.

Robots that can be mistaken for humans becomes available at TL-15:

Pseudo-Biological: Soft-skinned biological look-alike, often of the creating race. At tech 15 and above, pseudo-biological robots may pass for members of their "race".

T5 probably has more to say...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The Shudusham Concords were signed in -110 in the Sylean Federation, but lacks legal force in the 3I:
https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Shudusham_Concords

This disaster prompted twelve worlds of the Sylean Federation to meet on the neutral world of Shudusham to draft an agreement dealing with the issue of weaponry carried by robots. After much deliberation, all twelve worlds finally signed the completed Shudusham Concords in -110. A hardcopy is on display in the Museum of Sylean History on Capital.

The Concords have no legal force in the Third Irnperium, but they have served as a model for many high-tech worlds' documents governing the manufacture and use of robots.

 

[ManOfGrey]

The Shudusham Concords

The Shudusham Concords were signed in -110 in the Sylean Federation, but lacks legal force in the 3I:

More specifically:

"A tragic attack against the Sylean Federation, which occurred in -112 in Core Sector, helped shape the Third Imperium's current attitudes regarding robots. A terrorist group rigged a Dover-Gabe courier robot to self-destruct, and managed to sneak it aboard a 90,000-ton Sylean battleship. The Empire's Banner was on a goodwill mission in orbit around the world Fornol (Core 1715) when the robot's hydrogen/oxygen fuel-cell exploded. Fornol's premier, two ambassadors, and a Sylean vice-minister were killed, along with a host of ship's officers and crew. The repercussions of this event were so far-reaching that the Sylean Federation was nearly thrown into a civil war.

"This disaster prompted twelve worlds of the Sylean Federation to meet on the neutral world of Shudusham to draft an agreement dealing with the issue of weaponry carried by robots. After much deliberation, all twelve worlds finally signed the completed Shudusham Concords in -110. A hardcopy is on display in the Museum of Sylean History on Capital."

 

[Proneutron]

LBB8 says Low Autonomous robots become available at TL-12:

Which we now know is incorrect as they can be made today at our TL.

 

[coliver988]

Which we now know is incorrect as they can be made today at our TL.

But we're playing Traveller, not 21st Century Reality.

But yes, things changed far more in areas they did not think would change (computers) and far less in things they thought would change (grav, fusion).

I personally am quite fine with RAW despite flaws in the technology tree. I believe that other versions of Traveller (Cepheus, Mongoose) more closely align where things have changed.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Which we now know is incorrect as they can be made today at our TL.

But apparently not in the OTU...


Perhaps they are in the works or theoretically possible, but I see a distinct lack of working robots IRL. We can't even make a fully functional self-driving car after decades and many billions in R&D.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

To be more specific...

Do they roll around on wheels or treads, or are they more anthropomorphic?

Wheels, tracks, legs, and grav drives are all possible.

And of course robot brains can be built into regular machinery, so they are self-operated. Probably common on expensive machinery?

Are they dumb machines that can understand only a few simple commands, or can you have a conversation with them?

Real robots, that can replace skilled workers ("High Autonomous"), are TL-13.

A TL-12 robot is probably not much of a conversationalist, but can follow generic instructions.

Lower tech robots are less interactive.

Can some be mistaken for humans, or are they like the droids in Star Wars, and are obviously mechanical constructs?

Pseudo-biologicals are TL-15, so no such robots at TL-12.

And the big white elephant question... can they kill people? In the books they briefly mention a Sylean convention that prohibits armed robots. Is this a thing? Or does the burgeoning Imperium use warbots?

The Shudusham Concords regulates armed robots, it does not ban them. So, yes, robots can probably be armed and trained to kill sophonts, but it is presumably heavily regulated.

Security robots probably exist. Warbots might exist, but since Imperial sources often comment on how much the Zhodani uses warbots they are probably not all that common in the Imperium.

Different worlds and different regions in the Imperium probably differ in their application of warbots, i.e. it is not specified in detail so you can have as many or as few robots as you like.

 

[Proneutron]

But we're playing Traveller, not 21st Century Reality.

Right. And smart phones don't exist until TL 45. :rofl:

 

[Proneutron]

We can't even make a fully functional self-driving car after decades and many billions in R&D.

But we can make flying robots just fine.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Pseudo-biologicals are TL-15, so no such robots at TL-12.

Hmm, T4 CSC has Companions at TL-12 that are almost life-like and might be mistaken for sophonts.

In game terms, a Companion is noticed as artificial on an Average Intelligence or Engineering task, modified by any visual obscurement like heavy clothing, helmet, etc. At higher TL's, the difficulty of this task will increase. Stationary, they appear very lifelike, but when moving, the very subtle differences become apparent to humans who have seen “the real thing” all their lives.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

But we can make flying robots just fine.

Fully self-operating without human guidance?

Can we simply instruct them to "Fly to Bagram in Afghanistan and fetch cargo lot #46523674 and come back here. Organise any necessary refuelling yourself. Oh, by the way, avoid Russian and Iranian airspace and try to not be shot down by insurgents."?

That is what a fully functional robot is supposed to be able to do...

 

[Condottiere]

 

[robject]

LBB8 says Low Autonomous robots become available at TL-12:
[...]
Robots that can be mistaken for humans becomes available at TL-15:

T5 probably has more to say...

Ubiquitous, invisible, and non-sentient is I believe Marc's current starting point for robots in the Imperium. Roombas. Even starships can be considered robots.

UNTIL you transplant a brain into one. Then you have a player character or non-player character. And the tech chart at TL13 says "Robots"... presumably that means robot characters rather than self-driving cars and Roombas. (Note: personality transfer is only temporary until TL17).

Then at TL16 you have "true AI" and true artificial persons.

One consequence from T5: you can clone the brain of an excellent gunner a thousand times, stick it in a thousand missiles, wire them to an artificial environment, train them to make endless missile runs (probably as a game with positive feedback for motivation)... and you'll have a very talented set of nukes for your navy.

 

[Timerover51]

Ubiquitous, invisible, and non-sentient is I believe Marc's current starting point for robots in the Imperium. Roombas. Even starships can be considered robots.

UNTIL you transplant a brain into one. Then you have a player character or non-player character. And the tech chart at TL13 says "Robots"... presumably that means robot characters rather than self-driving cars and Roombas. (Note: personality transfer is only temporary until TL17).

Then at TL16 you have "true AI" and true artificial persons.

One consequence from T5: you can clone the brain of an excellent gunner a thousand times, stick it in a thousand missiles, wire them to an artificial environment, train them to make endless missile runs (probably as a game with positive feedback for motivation)... and you'll have a very talented set of nukes for your navy.

And if the clone brain decided it wants to do something else, what do you do? Especially if it decided this once fired and makes a boomerang run back to the firing ship?

 

[mike wightman]

Or decides it doesn't want to die just yet...

 

[Timerover51]

Or decides it doesn't want to die just yet...

That is the other option, which means an out of control nuclear missile on the loose.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Or decides it doesn't want to die just yet...

Or doesn't believe that anything outside itself really exists, and has to be talked out of detonating inside the bomb bay.

 

[robject]

And if the clone brain decided it wants to do something else, what do you do? Especially if it decided this once fired and makes a boomerang run back to the firing ship?

I suppose we face that risk with every soldier. Don't know how we deal with that in the real world, but I assume people can be trained to be good soldiers?