Uplifted Roman Empire

[aramis]

The trick there is convincing anyone it's worth the trouble to make in the first place.

They already had oils lamps, could you sell it as a better lamp oil? Dunno about that.

You need the raw drilling and pumping industry, then the refinement industry, and then "something(s)" to burn it all in.

Sure, we all know about gas and cars, but that's not how the industry started. It took off with Kerosene. But, I'm not quite sure what the primary use case was for the Kerosene in the public space. Heat? Light? Industrial power?

Kerosene is a far superior lamp oil than the typical olive oil...

Bituminous tar was in natural seeps; being able to get the heavy tar pulled out from the lighter oils improves its use as waterproofing.

It's not the "boil it to render the tar proper for boating use" that's the hard part (that was, in fact, done). It's the concept of catching the vapor and condensing it into kerosene, gasoline, and a half-dozen others.

THing is, distillation was known in Greece at least as far back as 200 BCE... pointing out that pitchblend can be distilled isn't that big a leap.

 

[Werner]

Exactly. Once you can get more work out of another source, slavery loses its utility. For example, if our time traveler showed the Romans a better harness and wagon design that made horse teams capable of moving more stuff than human slaves consuming the same resources were capable of, slaves are no longer economically competitive to move stuff. The result is you hire a laborer to operate the horse team and wagon, maybe load and unload it too. That becomes the new model of economic efficiency at moving stuff.

Slaves can handle horses too. My point is slave owners will be reluctant to part with their property just as they were in the South, and fought a civil war to keep their slaves. Slaves are a form of wealth and it is hard to convince people to give up their wealth. Some forms of slavery will continue for example, slavery is an effective way to punish criminals, and I think there will still be crime as technology advances, prisons cost money, feeding and housing prisoners cost money, the Roman government would just rather sell its prisoners as slaves and that way they can pay for their crimes. Murderers probably get sent to the arena, or they are simply executed in public. Probably crucifixion would continue, another form of execution is feeding them to beasts. The point is to deter crime by making executions public. Human collateral could also be used for personal loans. A Roman citizen can take out a college loan, and if he can get a job and pay it Off, fine, otherwise he may become an indentured servant. The prior career rolls would include a chance if being sold into slavery as a possible mishap. The price of slaves would go down as the demand for slaves decreased., but it would still exist to some degree because of social inertia.

 

[Condottiere]

Slavery within the Roman Empire is a rather complex subject: it could range from being on the wrong side of a war, to actually having arranged to sell yourself into in order to access certain professions and positions (like a eunuch, without the physical sacrifice).

You could mechanize the agricultural sector, if you could demonstrate a more efficient way to get output with machinery, and the same with domestic help.

 

[Enoki]

Slaves can handle horses too. My point is slave owners will be reluctant to part with their property just as they were in the South, and fought a civil war to keep their slaves. Slaves are a form of wealth and it is hard to convince people to give up their wealth. Some forms of slavery will continue for example, slavery is an effective way to punish criminals, and I think there will still be crime as technology advances, prisons cost money, feeding and housing prisoners cost money, the Roman government would just rather sell its prisoners as slaves and that way they can pay for their crimes. Murderers probably get sent to the arena, or they are simply executed in public. Probably crucifixion would continue, another form of execution is feeding them to beasts. The point is to deter crime by making executions public. Human collateral could also be used for personal loans. A Roman citizen can take out a college loan, and if he can get a job and pay it Off, fine, otherwise he may become an indentured servant. The prior career rolls would include a chance if being sold into slavery as a possible mishap. The price of slaves would go down as the demand for slaves decreased., but it would still exist to some degree because of social inertia.

You missed the point. Slavery wouldn't end suddenly. Instead it would peter out as the need for it diminished. In the wagon example the slave owner might only need one or two slaves to work a good wagon with a team of horses instead of say ten or fifteen slaves to haul the same goods without the wagon.

Legionnaires were often granted land and citizenship for their service. They might become quite wealthy in foreign lands both from the scarcity of people there as well as from looting on campaign.

By the same token, in this scenario giving slaves a potential opportunity to gain their freedom and even rise in social status might be a great incentive to motivate them to want to go to a distant colony and work.

 

[Enoki]

I still think that initially the most important improvement to make is in simple hand tools and implements, along with improved materials, and techniques in civil engineering. If you can build a walled town faster, cheaper, and with less effort in terms of manpower it is a huge economic multiplier.

This extends to agriculture and other trades as well. Not only would it mean your own people are better fed, healthier, and more comfortable, but it would give you the ability to trade with the locals as well.

Better weapons for warfare are less important and you can make up for that to a big degree early on with better tactics and training of the available troops. Establishing a secure and strong base as a "New" Rome would be a better move than trying to change the established power structure in Europe.

 

[Werner]

The easiest simple tools would be better sailing ships, schooners to cross the oceans, the compass, the astrolobe, the mechanical clock. Roman ships crossing the Atlantic might end up in the Caribbean or they might take a more northern route from Britain or Gaul. I think the Caribbean Islands are best left alone, colonizing them would encourage more slavery. New York on the other hand might make a great place to start.

 

[whartung]

Slaves can handle horses too. My point is slave owners will be reluctant to part with their property just as they were in the South, and fought a civil war to keep their slaves.

But the South was the only place slavery ended so violently, everyplace else it ended organically. If there was no Civil War, it's very likely slavery would have died out on its own accord, just like it did everywhere else.

Slaves are a form of wealth and it is hard to convince people to give up their wealth.

So are trucks, they just require less maintenance than slaves. Making them an even better form of wealth.

Some forms of slavery will continue for example, slavery is an effective way to punish criminals, and I think there will still be crime as technology advances, prisons cost money, feeding and housing prisoners cost money, the Roman government would just rather sell its prisoners as slaves and that way they can pay for their crimes.

And here in the Western world at least, the idea of convict labor has fallen by the wayside, and quite quickly.

Murderers probably get sent to the arena, or they are simply executed in public. Probably crucifixion would continue, another form of execution is feeding them to beasts. The point is to deter crime by making executions public. Human collateral could also be used for personal loans. A Roman citizen can take out a college loan, and if he can get a job and pay it Off, fine, otherwise he may become an indentured servant. The prior career rolls would include a chance if being sold into slavery as a possible mishap. The price of slaves would go down as the demand for slaves decreased., but it would still exist to some degree because of social inertia.

So how is it that today we've managed to evolve out of that?

We don't torture criminals to death any longer. Closest we have to blood sport today in MMA fighting and cock fights in the alley. Even car racing is evolved based on safety more than anything else.

Some societies still have bloody, public executions. But we also know the global opinion of that and no doubt there's pressures on those societies to perhaps revisit those practices.

Technology developed slowly in the early history. As they say, up until the first locomotive, horseback was the sole mechanism for land travel to the point that George Washington moved his army the same way Julius Caesar did. Or that the Space Shuttle design was influenced by the size of a horse. But that about 250 years ago. Since then, it has taken off.

With that, populace mobility has exploded. Now, barring state controls, it's easy for someone to leave a place they don't like to try to find a place they do like.

With technology comes communication, with communication comes evolution. Look what's happening today because of the modern communication networks. It's hard to imagine a high tech society not going through a similar evolutionary phase and even more difficult to think that they might go "Yea, it was better in the past so we'll go back to the slaves, gladiator games, and nailing people to things".

I just look at all of the different things that can fracture a locked down society. Even today we see the effort it takes to keep a society closed off.

I think it was inevitable that those Roman institutions were left behind, and that even a future Rome, while perhaps still semi-glamorizing it through rearward looking, rose colored glasses, would have left them behind as well.

 

[whulorigan]

So how is it that today we've managed to evolve out of that?

The answer to that is difficult to discuss outside the Political Pulpit. Suffice it to say that pagan Rome and its value system was replaced in many facets by a different worldview thru the spread of the Judaeo-Christian tradition, which became one of the principal influencing components of Western Culture.

And I will leave it at that.

 

[Werner]

But the South was the only place slavery ended so violently, everyplace else it ended organically. If there was no Civil War, it's very likely slavery would have died out on its own accord, just like it did everywhere else.




So are trucks, they just require less maintenance than slaves. Making them an even better form of wealth.



And here in the Western world at least, the idea of convict labor has fallen by the wayside, and quite quickly.



So how is it that today we've managed to evolve out of that?

We don't torture criminals to death any longer. Closest we have to blood sport today in MMA fighting and cock fights in the alley. Even car racing is evolved based on safety more than anything else.

Some societies still have bloody, public executions. But we also know the global opinion of that and no doubt there's pressures on those societies to perhaps revisit those practices.

Technology developed slowly in the early history. As they say, up until the first locomotive, horseback was the sole mechanism for land travel to the point that George Washington moved his army the same way Julius Caesar did. Or that the Space Shuttle design was influenced by the size of a horse. But that about 250 years ago. Since then, it has taken off.

With that, populace mobility has exploded. Now, barring state controls, it's easy for someone to leave a place they don't like to try to find a place they do like.

With technology comes communication, with communication comes evolution. Look what's happening today because of the modern communication networks. It's hard to imagine a high tech society not going through a similar evolutionary phase and even more difficult to think that they might go "Yea, it was better in the past so we'll go back to the slaves, gladiator games, and nailing people to things".

I just look at all of the different things that can fracture a locked down society. Even today we see the effort it takes to keep a society closed off.

I think it was inevitable that those Roman institutions were left behind, and that even a future Rome, while perhaps still semi-glamorizing it through rearward looking, rose colored glasses, would have left them behind as well.

But here society didn't have a chance to catch up with rapidly advancing technology, that is why they still have arena games, crucifixion, and slavery, you can give ancient men technology, but they still think like ancients. Technology doesn't automatically give people modern sensibilities or morals. This is a role playing game, a society with flaws gives all sorts of plot hooks and Adventuring possibilities, if it didn't have these things, it might as well be the Third Imperium. I'm not saying they're great, they are not supposed to be great, the PCs don't have to like them, so that motivates them to do something about it.

 

[Werner]

The answer to that is difficult to discuss outside the Political Pulpit. Suffice it to say that pagan Rome and its value system was replaced in many facets by a different worldview thru the spread of the Judaeo-Christian tradition, which became one of the principal influencing components of Western Culture.

And I will leave it at that.

But that's not really important, I am not here to discuss how our modern society evolved from this, I'm just talking about how this setting would be if we added technology. This society has a classic Roman mindset, and they are building starships toward the end, but these are still brutal Roman's, they are not necessarily the good guys here, they are not the bad guys either, they view their slaves as human beings, they have some empathy for them, but they also view them as their property as they paid money for them and made investments in their education and upbringing. Some even have children by their slaves. After a time most usually end up being manumitted or their children are. Roman's know all to well that someday they could be slaves themselves.

 

[Condottiere]

It really depends on how you plan to control the Roman Empire, directly or through puppets.

If wanted to use brute force, I'd just take over Sicily, create a security force sufficient for the island, and a fleet that would ensure no invasions would be possible.

Then, mechanize agriculture and introduce fertilizer, and start selling the excess at very competitive prices, using economics to collapse the landholding elite.

Or, blockade Italy and take control of Egypt, basically the crown jewel.

 

[Werner]

It really depends on how you plan to control the Roman Empire, directly or through puppets.

If wanted to use brute force, I'd just take over Sicily, create a security force sufficient for the island, and a fleet that would ensure no invasions would be possible.

Then, mechanize agriculture and introduce fertilizer, and start selling the excess at very competitive prices, using economics to collapse the landholding elite.

Or, blockade Italy and take control of Egypt, basically the crown jewel.

Let's just say, the Time Traveller does not want to be the Roman Emperor, he's doing this for ideological reasons, he does not seek power for himself.
The Time Traveller witnessed his entire family killed by Imperial Marines in a firefight when he was a small child, he was placed for adoption, but he never forgot, so his motivation is to make the 3rd Imperium unhappen, so he wishes to build a stronger Terran Empire than the 2nd Imperium, and the time period he has to work with is 113 AD Rome, he figures the Romans know how to run an empire, so they'll will do, he doesn't care much beyond that what they do with their Interstellar empire that he wants to give them, just so long as they are Terran - that is his motivation, he doesn't want to be Emperor, he just wants revenge, what he doesn't realize is that he is simply creating a parallel universe and it doesn't make the 3rd Imperium unhappen at all, but then he doesn't have a degree in physics either, he is just some sort of rebel/rogue who thought he saw his chance to steal a time machine and change history.

 

[Condottiere]

The facade of Roman institutions, which the French Republic tried with three Consuls.

If the Time Traveller wants to control the development of the Roman Empire, he'll have to do it as an unseen power broker and puppet master, which means controlling the appointment of army commanders and provincial governors, selective legislative reforms by influencing whoever is Emperor and those who surround him, and on the economic front, selected merchants and scientific innovators.

 

[Werner]

The facade of Roman institutions, which the French Republic tried with three Consuls.

If the Time Traveller wants to control the development of the Roman Empire, he'll have to do it as an unseen power broker and puppet master, which means controlling the appointment of army commanders and provincial governors, selective legislative reforms by influencing whoever is Emperor and those who surround him, and on the economic front, selected merchants and scientific innovators.

Well he could become filthy rich in the Roman Empire, kind of like an Elon Musk on steroids, money does bring power, and the Ship's library can tell where to dig for gold, so that helps too!

 

[Sir Brad]

the roman empire espechily the late roman empire was built on wealth inequality.

the upper classes didn't want advanced tech espechily labor saving tech as it de valued their Slaves and gave the employed plebs the means to acquire wealth and the spare time to become politically active or even rebel.

give them the means to build grander monumental buildings and you will be appreciated, give them the means to secure against bad harvests and you will make some coin.

give labor saving tech, Weapons to redefine the battlefeild or abundant harvests enough to allow for a civil war and you will end up under the foundation stones of the new imperial palace.

 

[Werner]

the roman empire espechily the late roman empire was built on wealth inequality.

the upper classes didn't want advanced tech espechily labor saving tech as it de valued their Slaves and gave the employed plebs the means to acquire wealth and the spare time to become politically active or even rebel.

give them the means to build grander monumental buildings and you will be appreciated, give them the means to secure against bad harvests and you will make some coin.

give labor saving tech, Weapons to redefine the battlefeild or abundant harvests enough to allow for a civil war and you will end up under the foundation stones of the new imperial palace.

Hard to put that genie in the bottle once it is released. A simple printing press will unleash all sorts of changes throughout the Empire, and also the Time Traveller can release all sort of tech in such a way that it doesn't trace back to him, he could just feint innocence and say such in such an invention must have been made independently of him. He could draw up designs of a schooner and give it to a merchant, he could make a magnetic compass, make some black powder and a steel pipe and give it to a blacksmithmto figure out what he could do with it. Place enough breadcrumbs in front of people and they will figure it out themselves. The generals will be happy to have these new weapons and win some battles, they aren't going to complain about devaluing slaves, in the battles they win they can take some more slaves that will more than compensate them. Guns will change the battlefield, and a telegraph is a simple device, it allows for communication across long distances and can hold the Empire together, the Emperor will be pleased about that!

 

[Enoki]

If the time traveler wants to just impress the Romans, the easiest way to do that is show up in public in the scout ship. Float overhead, maybe at a large battle, and obliterate the opposing side. A nice 1 or 2 KT nuke into the enemy such that the Romans survive it, or some laser fire (visible or invisible in terms of being able to see the beam) that wipes the Roman's enemies out would pretty much cinch the deal. That'd leave little doubt in anyone's mind about who has power to do what and be listened to.

It'd be a bit of playing god really. You never let them actually see you. Instead everything is done in the guise of the ship appearing and offering stuff that the Romans are told they will do [/i]or else![/i] Edicts from what's obviously, to them, a god goes a long way to motivate them to comply without much or any resistance.

 

[Condottiere]

I'd start with a disruptive technology that the Romans won't recognize as a Trojan Horse.

The printing press, publishing during the day maybe a Latin translation of the Iliad, and during the night Fifty Shades of Grey.

 

[Werner]

If the time traveler wants to just impress the Romans, the easiest way to do that is show up in public in the scout ship. Float overhead, maybe at a large battle, and obliterate the opposing side. A nice 1 or 2 KT nuke into the enemy such that the Romans survive it, or some laser fire (visible or invisible in terms of being able to see the beam) that wipes the Roman's enemies out would pretty much cinch the deal. That'd leave little doubt in anyone's mind about who has power to do what and be listened to.

It'd be a bit of playing god really. You never let them actually see you. Instead everything is done in the guise of the ship appearing and offering stuff that the Romans are told they will do [/i]or else![/i] Edicts from what's obviously, to them, a god goes a long way to motivate them to comply without much or any resistance.

Except there is no reason for a Scout ship to have a nuke.

 

[Werner]

I'd start with a disruptive technology that the Romans won't recognize as a Trojan Horse.

The printing press, publishing during the day maybe a Latin translation of the Iliad, and during the night Fifty Shades of Grey.

How about a chemistry textbook with the periodic chart of the elements?