The Silurian hypothesis

[GypsyComet]

I'm not sure densitometers would be of much use at those ranges.

Neutrino detectors on the scale that far future astronomers might use could possibly detect traces but, given that they can ship equipment from star to star to study them more closely, I think the only neutrino sensors on that scale would be locked on stellar bodies of types they couldn't reach by jump, i.e. types not encountered in the Imperium. Those aren't likely to detect colony ships unless one coincidentally crossed in front of their target and they were trying to figure out why the star's neutrino output shifted briefly.

Visible spectrum maybe, maybe not. IR detection would be more useful, assuming they could detect IR differences between colony ships and natural bodies at ranges approaching or exceeding a lightyear, and assuming a colony ship happened to be in their viewing arc while they were looking for something else. (Or perhaps someone suspected colony ships were out there and was just searching for one.)

Ah, right. I keep forgetting that Survey Densitometers are mostly head-Canon. The idea that, using an installation similar to modern VLAs and a LOT of patience, you can observe the gravitational variations in empty hexes nearby. Resolution is nowhere near combat scales, being more akin to statistical drift. You're looking for rogue planets, brown dwarfs, and, just maybe, ships with relativistic mass.

 

[Talifon]

The Imperium biologically modifies people to adapt them to colony worlds, 100,000,000 years is more than enough time for some bioengineering and subsequent evolution.

Sure, but why radically redesign a perfectly workable ribcage? or eye? There are just too many anatomical differences between Droyne and real-life Earth vertebrates for the idea that whey could be derived from Earth would be plausible.

Then there is the example of the Zhodani. The humans transported by the Ancients evolved inot two separate human species, and modern Zhodani are the result of the hybridisation of those two.

Up until ~25,000 years ago, there was more than one human species on Earth, and we still have some of the genes of those other humans in our modern day genome. So two sorts of humans on Zhdant that end up hybridizing into the modern Zhodani? Perfectly reasonable.

 

[aramis]

Sure, but why radically redesign a perfectly workable ribcage? or eye? There are just too many anatomical differences between Droyne and real-life Earth vertebrates for the idea that whey could be derived from Earth would be plausible.




Up until ~25,000 years ago, there was more than one human species on Earth, and we still have some of the genes of those other humans in our modern day genome. So two sorts of humans on Zhdant that end up hybridizing into the modern Zhodani? Perfectly reasonable.

There are several sites that have fossils which show some Neanderthal features in what is now eastern Turkey as recently as 18 kYA; unfortunately, due to location and politics... the digs from the 90's haven't been continued in those tells, nor have more expensive but accurate datings been obtained. (Smithsonian lists 15 kYA as the nearest end of the extinction window for all other humans, with the end of Denisovans as a species.)
And if one goes back to 65 KYA, there are at least three human species... as we add H. luzonensis and H. floresiensis.

There's interesting dicussion that H. sapiens may be only 250 kYA and in that time frame, we know of at least 4 species in Homo... it's the near end of H. heidelbergensis, well into H. neandertalensis, the earliest H. sapiens sapiens, and H. erectus... plus possibly some H. antecessor, and H. longi. Also, H. floresiensis and H. luzonensis appear to be derived from H. erectus... evidence only shows them to 150 kYA, but that means erectus or an intermediary was present.

As for the Silurians - I've no problem with there being sentient dinos... but there's not been enough churn to replace their metal deposits... so I have issues with them having left. If they had, we shouldn't have enough aluminum, iron, copper, and gold to follow.

homo heidelbergensis

An Evolutionary Timeline of Homo Sapiens

Scientists share the findings that helped them pinpoint key moments in the rise of our species

www.smithsonianmag.com

 

[Nathan Brazil]

HOW LONG DOES THE REMAINS OF AN EXTINCT TECHNOLOGICAL CIVILIZATION REMAIN?
Beyond our TL 0 (or greater you wacky ancient astronaut theorists you ), we have no actual cases. However we have had more expert speculation on ourselves, a TL 7-8 Civ. I submit for more destruction of civil discourse a Wikipedia entry regarding "future history" events. Some of these are indisputable, some merely speculative/estimated (assuming we don't destroy ourselves sooner) . First the main index:
Wikipedia - Timelines of the Future Frome here of interest to this topic: Wikipedia Timeline of the far future - Humanity and human constructs
Here we have the goodies to debate on. My point in bringing this up is it does not matter if there is no evidence for your instrument to detect. My big example is plutonium. A sign of TL5 fission on a old, stable, earthlike planet But if it "half-lifes" and loses enogh radioactivity to be "safe" after 250,000 years, will future surveyors know we existed since most waste is buried at the New Mexico Waste Isolation Pilot Plant?

Years From Now (Yfn) or CE	Event
1,000 Yfn​	The SNAP-10A nuclear satellite, launched in 1965 to an orbit 700 km (430 mi) above Earth, will return to the surface.
3183 CE​	The Zeitpyramide (time pyramid), a public art work started in 1993 at Wemding, Germany, is scheduled for completion.
2,000​	Maximum lifespan of the data films in Arctic World Archive, a repository which contains code of open-source projects on GitHub along with other data of historical interest, if stored in optimum conditions.
10,000​	The Waste Isolation Pilot Plant, for nuclear weapons waste, is planned to be protected until this time, with a "Permanent Marker" system designed to warn off visitors through both multiple languages (the six UN languages and Navajo) and through pictograms. The Human Interference Task Force has provided the theoretical basis for United States plans for future nuclear semiotics.
10,000​	Planned lifespan of the Long Now Foundation's several ongoing projects, including a 10,000-year clock known as the Clock of the Long Now, the Rosetta Project, and the Long Bet Project. Estimated lifespan of the HD-Rosetta analog disc, an ion beam-etched writing medium on nickel plate, a technology developed at Los Alamos National Laboratory and later commercialized. (The Rosetta Project uses this technology, named after the Rosetta Stone.)
10,000​	Projected lifespan of Norway's Svalbard Global Seed Vault.
10,000​	Most probable estimated lifespan of technological civilization, according to Frank Drake's original formulation of the Drake equation.
10,000​	If globalization trends lead to panmixia, human genetic variation will no longer be regionalized, as the effective population size will equal the actual population size.
20,000​	According to the glottochronology linguistic model of Morris Swadesh, future languages should retain just 1 out of 100 "core vocabulary" words on their Swadesh list compared to that of their current progenitors.
24,110​	Half-life of plutonium-239.At this point the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone, the 2,600-square-kilometre (1,000 sq mi) area of Ukraine and Belarus left deserted by the 1986 Chernobyl disaster, will return to normal levels of radiation.
25,000​	The Arecibo message, a collection of radio data transmitted on 16 November 1974, reaches the distance of its destination, the globular clusterMessier 13.[170] This is the only interstellar radio message sent to such a distant region of the galaxy. There will be a 24-light-year shift in the cluster's position in the galaxy during the time it takes the message to reach it, but as the cluster is 168 light-years in diameter, the message will still reach its destination. Any reply will take at least another 25,000 years from the time of its transmission (assuming no faster-than-light communication).
09/14/30828CE​	Maximum system time for 64-bit NTFS-based Windows operating system.
33,800​	Pioneer 10 passes within 3.4 light-years of Ross 248.
42,200​	Voyager 2 passes within 1.7 light-years of Ross 248.
44,100​	Voyager 1 passes within 1.8 light-years of Gliese 445.
46,600​	Pioneer 11 passes within 1.9 light-years of Gliese 445.
50,000​	Estimated atmospheric lifetime of tetrafluoromethane, the most durable greenhouse gas.
90,300​	Pioneer 10 passes within 0.76 light-years of HIP 117795.
100,000+​	Time required to terraform Mars with an oxygen-rich breathable atmosphere, using only plants with solar efficiency comparable to the biosphere currently found on Earth.
100,000 – 1M​	Estimated time by which humanity could colonize our Milky Way galaxy and become capable of harnessing all the energy of the galaxy, assuming a velocity of 10% the speed of light.
250,000​	The estimated minimum time at which the spent plutonium stored at New Mexico's Waste Isolation Pilot Plant will cease to be radiologically lethal to humans.
10/13/275760 CE​	Maximum system time for the JavaScript programming language.

 

[Condottiere]

I would guess that microplastics, would be an indication, long into the future.

 

[aramis]

I would guess that microplastics, would be an indication, long into the future.

Most (probably all) of them do break down.. just not in a rapid enough way for not ‹‹bleep››ing up the ecosphere.
Given a few millennia, most should break down into petrochemical goo... a goo not unlike natural tar and crude oil.

The atomic waste isn't even a dead giveaway, tho' some claim the "natural reactors" are actually Atlantean expended fuel dumpsites...

 

[Talifon]

There are several sites that have fossils which show some Neanderthal features in what is now eastern Turkey as recently as 18 kYA; unfortunately, due to location and politics... the digs from the 90's haven't been continued in those tells, nor have more expensive but accurate datings been obtained. (Smithsonian lists 15 kYA as the nearest end of the extinction window for all other humans, with the end of Denisovans as a species.)
And if one goes back to 65 KYA, there are at least three human species... as we add H. luzonensis and H. floresiensis.

There's interesting dicussion that H. sapiens may be only 250 kYA and in that time frame, we know of at least 4 species in Homo... it's the near end of H. heidelbergensis, well into H. neandertalensis, the earliest H. sapiens sapiens, and H. erectus... plus possibly some H. antecessor, and H. longi. Also, H. floresiensis and H. luzonensis appear to be derived from H. erectus... evidence only shows them to 150 kYA, but that means erectus or an intermediary was present.

I definitely think that given what we now know of human evolution, Humaniti in the OTU should be quite varied even beyond whatever modifications that can be attributed to the Ancients. At least there are a couple of Neanderthal-derived minor human races in the lore, as with the Kargol, and the Ziadd.

Obviously the Ancients were going to favor species of Homo that showed signs of greater intelligence and sociability, since we know that they were looking for assistants, so that might have narrowed their selection.

 

[kilemall]

Perhaps other of these human species did get transplanted but did not achieve minor or major race status? Perhaps still not discovered?

 

[RossWinn]

The dinosaurs had a lot longer than that to evolve to intelligence, build industries, develop space travel.
Travelling at 0.1c our dinosaur overlords could have spread to the rest of the galaxy in 300,000 years give or take.

Please read Toolmaker Koan by John McLoughlin

 

[Krikkitone]

Time scale could work, in the sense that they could have died back, and then evolve into the proto-Droyne and regain technology.

However the canonical Droyne skeleton does not support that narrative. The Droyne rib-cage is entirely unlike its equivalent in Terran vertebrates, whether reptilian, avian, or mammalian, and they have six limbs: two arms, two legs, and two wings. There is no six-limbed species amongst the Terran vertebrates.

Additionally, Droyne have compound eyes, which is a feature of Terran arthropods but not of Terran vertebrates.

It Could be supported if the “Silurians” were into Genetic Engineering. (hey low g high atm world… let’s modify functional wings)

But that would probably show up in DNA studies unless it was a complete conversion (new DNA from the ground up)

 

[aramis]

I definitely think that given what we now know of human evolution, Humaniti in the OTU should be quite varied even beyond whatever modifications that can be attributed to the Ancients. At least there are a couple of Neanderthal-derived minor human races in the lore, as with the Kargol, and the Ziadd.

Obviously the Ancients were going to favor species of Homo that showed signs of greater intelligence and sociability, since we know that they were looking for assistants, so that might have narrowed their selection.

Plus some Naledi derived. THey're 360 to 250 kYA.

 

[Talifon]

Plus some Naledi derived. THey're 360 to 250 kYA.

I did not know that there were any Naledi-derived peoples in the official lore.

 

[aramis]

I did not know that there were any Naledi-derived peoples in the official lore.

There aren't. Nor are there Neaderthal derived. Nor H. antecessor, H. Canonical, H. heidelbergensis, H. antecessor, or H. erectus. At least through T20, and only counting GDW, DGP, IG, and QLI, all the offworlders are derived from Canis lupus or Homo sapiens; then again, even in 2004, there were still arguments in public view over whether it was H. neanderthalensis or H. sapiens neanderthalensis.

There SHOULD be variants on them... Then again, when Marc penned the ancients dates in 1977, most of those others were unknown to science. H erectus, H sapiens, and H neanderthalensis were known, but the dates weren't firm. Looking at the list of fossils on Wikipedia, Heidelbergensis was also being argued over H heidelbergensis vs H sapiens heidelbergensis.

Modern paleoanthropology these days are in the "splitter" camp. from what I can tell, making heidelbergensis, antecessor, neanderthal, and longi all species level... tho' there are serious issues with longi and denisova; we know denisova was a distinct genome, and have an idea of how it looked from the DNA, but it's the only one defined by DNA. And thus it's not a valid taxon. The longi skeletal materials are of dubious provenance, and may or may not be denisova, but lack good published research yet.

 

[Talifon]

There aren't. Nor are there Neaderthal derived. Nor H. antecessor, H. Canonical, H. heidelbergensis, H. antecessor, or H. erectus. At least through T20, and only counting GDW, DGP, IG, and QLI, all the offworlders are derived from Canis lupus or Homo sapiens; then again, even in 2004, there were still arguments in public view over whether it was H. neanderthalensis or H. sapiens neanderthalensis.

The Ziadd, who are Neanderthal derived, first appear in Signal-GK in 1994. Obviously there is some grey area as to how much of the Signal-GK material is considered canon, https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Talk:Ziadd.

The Neanderthal-derived Kargol first appear in GURPS Traveller Humaniti in 2003. https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Kargol.

There SHOULD be variants on them... Then again, when Marc penned the ancients dates in 1977, most of those others were unknown to science. H erectus, H sapiens, and H neanderthalensis were known, but the dates weren't firm. Looking at the list of fossils on Wikipedia, Heidelbergensis was also being argued over H heidelbergensis vs H sapiens heidelbergensis.

I do think reconciling the OTU to the current understanding of archaic humans just makes the universe a tiny bit more interesting, and can probably be done without breaking canon (at least not in the broadest of strokes.) For instance, if it turns out the Darrians have significantly more Denisovan DNA than modern H. sapiens, it probably doesn't alter any established history, but it adds some more color if a given campaign is more science-oriented.

 

[Dragoner]

As far as I have recently read, there is push back among biologists in using DNA as a determiner, as they feel it is overstated or misunderstood in importance, and that life is far more complex than a simple assessment from DNA.

How Life Works

Did you know that there’s a new revolution going on in biology? I didn’t either. Thanks to this book– How Life Works, by Philip Ball– I feel like I understand about a third …

zompist.wordpress.com

 

[aramis]

As far as I have recently read, there is push back among biologists in using DNA as a determiner, as they feel it is overstated or misunderstood in importance, and that life is far more complex than a simple assessment from DNA.

How Life Works

Did you know that there’s a new revolution going on in biology? I didn’t either. Thanks to this book– How Life Works, by Philip Ball– I feel like I understand about a third …

zompist.wordpress.com

As I said, issues with H. denisova & H. longi...
Personally, I'm hoping for another H. longi that has viable DNA for sequencing to solve the biggest issue.

Note that viable for sequencing and viable for cloning are not the same level of viable.

 

[Dragoner]

As I said, issues with H. denisova & H. longi...
Personally, I'm hoping for another H. longi that has viable DNA for sequencing to solve the biggest issue.

Note that viable for sequencing and viable for cloning are not the same level of viable.

It is interesting as I have become older, the things we thought were more settled, physics, astronomy, biology, etc. have turned out to be far more complex, and even our most complex models have been shown to be simplistic. I think we will resolve the data at some point, though there is a lot of work to be done.

 

[kilemall]

It is interesting as I have become older, the things we thought were more settled, physics, astronomy, biology, etc. have turned out to be far more complex, and even our most complex models have been shown to be simplistic. I think we will resolve the data at some point, though there is a lot of work to be done.

I think there is a case for EDU to be capped per TL.

 

[bookwyrm]

I think there is a case for EDU to be capped per TL.

As an EDU modifier would be better.

Higher TL would be more difficult to understand while lower TL would be difficult to understand without a focus in the subject to be understood.

For example, understanding how Greek Fire was made vs trying to reverse engineer futuristic technology/knowledge. Some one could be highly educated for their TL, but be quite uninformed the further into the past or future you go.

 

[coliver988]

I think there is a case for EDU to be capped per TL.

I would disagree: the education is relative to the TL. a low TL barbarian has the education to build dwellings, make tools, know which plants are good to eat, even have first aid relative to that TL. For his TL he has a high TL whereas a TL 15 Traveller's education on Imperial history, astrophysics and all that have no bearing and are useless. And of course, the reverse is also true.

I treat education contextually: it is the chance you may know something that applies to the situation. In some situations, your education is worthless as it does not apply to the situation.

and having said that, I can also argue with myself and cap EDU by TL as well: higher TLs will give you a (probably) broader educational base as you have swathes of information available.

and Bookwrym responded as I wrote this and, yeah, what he said.