How important is vector movement.

[infojunky]

I have been farting around with Sid Meirs Starships. And then the mention of in system “warp” drives came up in another thread, the idea occurs that vector movement or the lack of it wouldn’t make that much change.

Consider High Guard, MT and MgT largely discarded it.

Thus the idea looks attractive, though I would rejigger movement somewhat.

Any thoughts?

 

[Dragoner]

I like it in LBB2, though I think the average player would like the hex movement better.

 

[infojunky]

I like it in LBB2, though I think the average player would like the hex movement better.

Player engagement is a good thing.

 

[Dragoner]

It is, and using the pseudo-vector movement in LBB2 sort of front loaded the work on me as ref, having to do the calcs, while they told me what they were doing. They might feel they have more control, though realistically most battles book 2 style didn't last that many turns. Just one ship running down another, sort of the way it should be, one doesn't want to get caught in an even fight.

 

[aramis]

I have been farting around with Sid Meirs Starships. And then the mention of in system “warp” drives came up in another thread, the idea occurs that vector movement or the lack of it wouldn’t make that much change.

Consider High Guard, MT and MgT largely discarded it.

Thus the idea looks attractive, though I would rejigger movement somewhat.

Any thoughts?

Importance depends upon intent... so for vector...
If one is doing gritty hard SF, it's vital...
If one's doing Fireflyesque "Keep flying" space opera, it's optional
For Trek-like or Doc-Smith-like, totally ignoreable.

 

[mike wightman]

The range band system of CT Starter edition is more abstract but does maintain a nod to St. Newton in that 'relative velocity' is still being tracked, along with range of course.
It's what I use during an rpg session, along with a roll/role for each character so every player can be involved:
Pilot - moves the ship, makes evasion rolls
Gunner - fires the weapons (or rather authorises the weapons to fire )
Navigator - uses sensors, ECM and ECCM
Computer station - manages ship software, anyone can carry a cassette...
Engineer - overclock the pp, allocate power, damage control
Everyone else - damage control (useful skills include JoT, mechanical, electronic, computer, engineering, vacc suit)

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Vector movement is a great idea, that is completely impractical.

I tried LBB2 combat once. When I realised that I was supposed to track each missile separately, I just laughed and gave up. With more than one single very small ship per side it's completely over the top.

For reference I had no problems playing 3R for a few days, but wimped out of WIF.

The range band system of CT Starter edition is more abstract but does maintain a nod to St. Newton in that 'relative velocity' is still being tracked, along with range of course.

Yes, the one-dimensional vector system works with STEM players.

In my limited experience players with no math background tend to just not get it...

 

[aramis]

Vector movement is a great idea, that is completely impractical.

Not really, if using the right methods...
I've found three games do it well...
Mayday, Babylon 5 Earthforce Sourcebook (a full thrust adaptation), and Full Thrust (with the fleetbook rules upgrade).

Several others are playable and hide the vector math in tables or formulae...
Spacemaster Tech Law, SpaceMaster StarStrike, Brilliant Lances, Laplace, Newton, & LaGrange...

Albedo (T&I/Chessex version) & SpaceTime give very reasonable justifications for maneuverless single pass combats. But both leave the PCs as perhaps planners, but then everyone aboard is unable to affect the outcomes. Sure, players may make rolls for the computer guidance of the KKMs... but otherwise, they're essentially uninvolved in combat.

Yes, the one-dimensional vector system works with STEM players.

In my limited experience players with no math background tend to just not get it...

I've had to explain it to non-STEM types in Traveller, houseruled MegaTraveller, and Alien... But one they grok it, Starships & Spacemen's range bands annoyed,,, (They're not newtonian at all. But it's an unlicensed Trek game from 1978...).

 

[whartung]

The problem isn't vector movement. The problem is velocity.

And, actually that's not the problem either, it's a matter of scale.

Vector movement is fine, but now when you have ships with high speeds on a small game map, it gets ungainly. It's hard to "turn around" when you're going "15", so that can consume a lot of space.

Play with some M6 ships, and the vector/map problem vanishes pretty quickly. With M1 ships, it's a different story.

 

[Enoki]

I personally like the vector system from the original LBB's. For small ship and 3 or less ship combat, etc., it works great. I do however, find it's much faster and easier to plot it on one of these:

A 'mo board' makes it easy, and it's not too difficult to learn the basics on using one. You just adjust the scale to fit your needs.

 

[kilemall]

I always used graph paper. If players were running a fleet battle I might use Brilliant Lances 30000km hex range. That yields 40 hexes for 1.2 million km, doable on many large hex sheets that are counter sized.

Missiles are typically salvos fired per turn so I usually track the whole swarm as one movement.

 

[whartung]

A 'mo board' makes it easy, and it's not too difficult to learn the basics on using one.

How do you use one of these in this context?

 

[infojunky]

I like it in LBB2, though I think the average player would like the hex movement better.

It also make room for engaging table top miniatures combats with lots of terrain.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If you want the speed from 1 Gturn to be 1 hex, each hex should be 3600 km...

1 Gturn is 1 G for 10 minutes:
velocity = at = 10 m/s² × 10 × 60 s = 6000 m/s.
distance = vt = 6000 m/s × 10 × 60 s = 3 600 000 m = 3 600 km.
Distance is distance travelled second turn = length of vector.

With 30 000 km hexes it should take about 8 Gturns to achieve a vector of one hex.

 

[aramis]

One trick for it...
Remember that common vector can be cancelled out.

Also remember: any vector on a hex grid can be described as two directions along the grain, separated by 60°. Also, if you have two components 120° off, you can convert nA + nC = nB

Ship	Vector 0	reduction 1	vector 1	reduction 2	Vector 2	Reduction 3
AA	4A 2B	-2A	2A 2B	-2B	2A	-1A	1A
AB	3A 3B	-2A	1A 3B	-2B	1A 1B	-1A	(0A) 1B
AC	3A 2F	-2A	1A 2F	-2B	1A 2F 2B = 3A	-1A	2A
B	2A 4B	-2A	(0A) 4B	-2B	2B	-1A (=+1D)	1D 2B=1B 1C

We just zeroed out ship B's A vector in step 1 Step 2, we zero AA's B vector Step 3, we minimize it all.

| · · · · · · · · · · e f
|· · · F · · · · · · d * a
| · · F B · · · · · · c b
|· S A · B · · · · ·
| · · · · · · · · · ·
|· · S · · · · · S · ·
| · · B · · · · · B · ·
|· · D B · · · · C · ·

it's much more obvious when using the 3-counter system. Just look who's going the shortest and move everyone's destination counter the same amounts and directions the smallest needs to be no movement... This is called floating the map. The only problem is when there's terrain... but for a catching or intercepting fight...

 

[Dragoner]

It also make room for engaging table top miniatures combats with lots of terrain.

I looked yesterday, and amazon has some cheap mini spaceships, I am think of getting and printing out some hex grid.

 

[Enoki]

How do you use one of these in this context?

With three or less ships, you are fighting on a plane described by the three (or less). Movement is plotted by one ship being the center of the plot while the others are plotted relative to it. You can do more than three but it won't be three-dimensional. Each ship's movement is plotted as a vector relative to the one at the center of the board. You can be fancy and plot it so the central ship remains 'stationary' and its movement is calculated into the plot of the others, or you can leave the initial point fixed and move everything relative to it.
There are free manuals you can download to learn how to do this. You will need a pair of dividers, a compass, parallel rules, and a compass circle to really do the plots quickly. Once you get the hang of it, it's easy to manage.

 

[whartung]

Remember that common vector can be cancelled out.

There are free manuals you can download to learn how to do this. You will need a pair of dividers, a compass, parallel rules, and a compass circle to really do the plots quickly. Once you get the hang of it, it's easy to manage.

Honestly, both of these sound like a lot of work. A floating map is easy, but if you have to float every turn, or every other turn, it's just a pain. Zeroing out the relative stuff seems like a load of cognitive overload, but I honestly haven't tried it.

The Maneuver board is intriguing, does each player have their own board? Sounds like it would be better as a local display.

 

[infojunky]

I looked yesterday, and amazon has some cheap mini spaceships, I am think of getting and printing out some hex grid.

Heh…. You see the attraction. I tend to spend a lot of time on the physical aspect of game play.

Honestly vector combat is better represented with colored pens on large sheet of paper. But miniatures on a mat tend to engage the players more effectively.

 

[Dragoner]

Heh…. You see the attraction. I tend to spend a lot of time on the physical aspect of game play.

Honestly vector combat is better represented with colored pens on large sheet of paper. But miniatures on a mat tend to engage the players more effectively.

Yes, and they say in the bag there are four copies of each ship, so one can use the mayday variant, maybe I am missing something, though it all seems to be falling together.