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2400ad

Anders

SOC-12
I have been toying with ideas for a 2400AD setting extrapolated from 2320AD. Some ideas:


The century has been politically turbulent. The fall of the colonial system set off a long chain of changes across the main powers. The first quarter was dominated by the enthusiasm and violence of colonial independence; then came the often harsh process of adapting to the new system and the horrors of the renewed Kafer War. In the end the (successful) colonies became far more flexible than the often rigid Core governments - demarchies, nanarchies or synarchies. The less successful colonies turned to isolationism or became clients or dependents to other powers. By 2370, some of the former colonies (not to mention the megacorps) were themselves de facto colonial powers. There is now an ideological backlash going on, where the second generation colonies are forming alliances to break interstellar monopolies.

Stutterwarp range is still 7.7 ly, but tugs have become common. Since using tugships is always more expensive than normal travel they will mainly be used for unbridgeable gaps to other clusters, or when they provide a very economic shortcut (like to the Manchurian arm and Latin finger). This has led to an "implosion" of much of the Manchurian arm to the Core: core powers were better able to maintain their control there. The French Arm is least affected, since a long trip along the Nyotekundu route still is needed.

Many colonial worlds have become economic hubs ("minicores") and have gone independent. Sometimes violently, sometimes peacefully. The old colonial empires are more or less gone. The new big powers are those who managed to embed the colony worlds within their infrastructure, like Manchuria, the US and Trilon. They run their arms, finger or clusters, reaping rents.


Core

France lost its colonial empire both in space and on Earth: the implosion of the space colonial network led to a major political breakdown in the Core, where the African empire separated peacefully. They approached the UAR, and through them in the late parts of the century a francophone-arabic alliance have emerged. The ecotechnological abilities and cultural power of the alliance has made it an ever present force in new colonies. Many speak of the African renaissance, with unexpected cultural "hits" in Eritrea and the Ivory Coast.

While Manchuria at first took on the role as the dominant nation, the US came to overshadow it in the 2350s thanks to technological boons from the Ylii and Aquilans. Manchuria today remains the epitome of the eco-conscious, preservationist, conservative nanny state. It dominates its sphere but has few ambitions to go beyond it. Meanwhile the US is becoming involved everywhere with everything, networking and growing tremendously rich and powerful.

The Core has avoided major military conflicts, partially due to deft political maneouvering by the Manchuria and the US, partially due to the focus on the Kafer war. Unfortunately the tensions are still there, and a situation of mutually assured destruction (both militarily, economically and politically) has emerged. Many worry that the Core seems to be locked into a rigid system and if this is ever seriously challenged all hell will break loose.


The War

The Kafer war is still going on, terribly destructive. The only thing keeping the Kafers and Human sphere from wiping out each other is broad swathes of no-beings land systems filled with the nastiest available mines, bioweapons, self-replicating sentinel devices and whatnot. The worst battles of the century were fought near Ylii space, where enormous devastation has occurred. The Ylii are divided, the warrior genera re-emerging, complex human and alien politics - some fractions are becoming ever more militant, others are seeking to escape to found new colony worlds far away (they are secretly exploring the Da've'I Na'ah cluster), some are willing to do anything to ensure any kind of peace. Human-Ylii interaction has introduced a whole host of strange new technologies and ideologies in the human sphere. Ylii-style ultrapreservationism is clashing with Pentapod-inspired provolutionism, which in turn has split off from transhumanism.

The war has led to the formation of a strong interstellar defense organization, the Abangares Accord. When the weakened human forces lost their beacheads in Kafer space during the Third Invasion the haphazard organization and support of the war came under scrutiny. Under the influence of the charismatic admiral Al-Kamash the Accord set up a system for maintaining and running "species defense". All spacefaring powers (and sufficiently rich polities) are required to support the Accord Fleet, which is politically independent from all Earth polities. While for a long while hobbled by political maneuvering, by 2400 the Accord has made itself far more independent and powerful than anybody ever expected. It is generally supported by the population, despite signs that it has its own agenda. For all practical purposes the Accord is a major power, even running colonies and involving itself in Core politics.


Colonies

The formerly French Arm has a prosperous core centered around Kie-Yuma and Joi. Trilon controls access to the worlds of the "Trilon cluster", all essentially corporate worlds. Landau (AC+23 468 46) is a key system, its orbital habitats and shipyards among the biggest in human space. BC has suffered a horrific disaster: a Kafer (?) bioweapon decimated its population and it is now in permanent quarantine as the survivors are carriers. Kimanjano is a pentapod-provolution world, inhabited by a bizarre hybrid society. They are also busy colonizing trans-Denebolan space. The lower arm is largely uninhabited except for Dunkelheim and the fortress Aurore. The Wolf cluster has expanded further (including a few outposts in the 61 Virginis cluster and Gliese 11 cluster), but many worry about colonizing so close to the battlezones.

The American arm has become an important hub due to the links to further clusters. Along the Backdoor route lies a series of colonies, and the deadly pursuit of Aquilan technology has led to the construction of colonies in the cluster - one of the sources of self-replicating sentinel technology. The cluster and Ylii has given Australia and the US (and their corporations) a massive technological edge.

The spread of tugs changed the Manchurian arm. The central part is now Core and either independent or federative parts of Manchuria. The Latin finger bloomed and moved from backwater to Core in one generation. This in turn caused unrest and conflicts, and led to violent rebellion. In 2386 the "fifth Rio Plata war" occurred, but between the Earth nations and the Finger. The Finger won.

The Sung are now on par with humanity and have a great deal of confidence. Sung and sung ships can be found far across human space, they are colonizing "the Sung cluster" beyond Stark. Unfortunately they are also involved in some of the more reckless uses of the new dangerous self-replicating systems, having roboticized their civilization to a great degree due to a rising new ideology of "refined automation".

The opening of 61 Cygni space came early in the century. The race to explore and colonize was tempered by the political shift; the old colonial powers were realizing colonialism was no longer relevant. Instead the cluster was explored by outwards corporations, some minor nations and religious groups. It came to be dominated by the Indonesian Lim Pek Kong Corporation and the pro-expansion, mildly transhumanist Xinzhong Foundation. The originally Manchurian colonial foundation had a political break with the empire, leading to a temporary invasion of the cluster ("the Cygni war"). The Foundation survived, and now is headquartered on Jūnzǐ (Eta Cassiopeiae), the most populous world. The war led to the political blockade from Manchuria of attempts to expand into the Mu Arae cluster unless the colonizers were "approved"; this led to the cluster being run by Skyworker Combine, a Manchurian corporation. It is now also expanding into the Iota Pegasi cluster.

Expansion into Eber space has been limited; visits to the clusters in that direction have found nasty remnants of the Final War to be active. There are signs that there is a surviving and even powerful Eber civilization on the other end of the "nightmare cluster" but no (official) contact has occurred.

The Bayern Corridor has been active on and off, depending on political mood. A few minor outposts exist along it for resupply. This is a hotbed of "Arism", a strong support for exploration and attempts to contact other species. The researchers, volunteers and colonists are however largely dependent on the Core powers for support. The Little Guys are doing well, making the corridor worlds increasingly poor - there is a real chance that several will be abandoned, their inhabitants either going back or to Littleendia.
 
Technology & Culture

AI has advanced; stable AIs exist, but more important are self-replicating robotics. These have revolutionized many areas of mining, terraforming and war - and accidents like the Pedro Infestation has shown that they can be deadly. Unfortunately safe control over the replicators has not been achieved, and many fear that humanity (not to mention the robotics-crazy Sung) are stumbling towards a massive disaster.

Biotech has stalled as the Pentapods are better at doing it and the radical transhumanists gave the rest of mankind a bad taste for what it does to people. The Pentapod-Provolutionist hives are now advancing it on their own. The more traditional transhumanists (by now relatively accepted) use implants. The Core transhumanists are relatively well integrated in society (mainly due to their role in the "longevity revolution" of the 2330's), while the colonial transhumanists tend to live on "enhanced worlds". Conflicts are rising between polities under the influence of ultrapreservationism (seeking to maintain a harmonious "interstellar ecology") and the groups adhering to evolvist views (transhumanists, Sung, outwards corporations).

One of the big breakthroughs in physics was the discovery of Q-balls, which has led to development of soliton technology. This has in turn enabled the Q-reactor and the Q-bomb that can convert matter directly to energy, as well as soliton screens for spaceships, string resonance cables and solitronic devices able to function at extremely high temperatures. Although the major powers (especially the Accord) want to keep soliton technology under control use is spreading. That the Enlightened Censure terror group got their hands on a Q-bomb and nearly wiped Beijing from the map in 2388 was a serious scare.

One of the nastier developments has been effective mind control techniques. While not very effective at a distance, if somebody can get access to the biological brain of someone there exist a wide variety of modifications that can be done, from convincing them about something to personality reconstruction or adding preprogrammed skills. The methods are expensive but useful for fixing criminals, underperforming employees or reprogramming certain agents.

A new political/social movement is the Kathekon, a form of neo-stoicism promoting self-control, asceticism and Zen-like attention. They use advanced psychological techniques to "instill harmony between the individual, society and their circumstances". The Kathekon idea is to create fully harmonized societies, where happiness and efficiency are ensured. Generally feared and disliked, Kathekon seems to crop up more and more, especially among the more marginal outposts and habitats.


Thoughts? I have not tried to aim the setting in any particular direction, just taken many of the discussions we have had on this forum and extrapolated them in all directions.
 
It's been a minute....

See, I made an error once long ago and traded my boxed set of Traveller 2300AD (and the map was sooooo groovy)...

Anyway, if you haven't already, look into CJ Cherryh's Union/Alliance/Compact Universe. U/A is human and the Compact is the Aliens, and they are Alien.

Union/Alliance space though deals with Earth and how she deals with the Colonies and the Spacer Families. It rocks and for messing with the mind see, Cyteen. *shudders* Icky but useful stuff.

Come to think of it I need to add copies back into my library and reread them...
 
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An interesting start. I have a few opinions on some of this:

I agree on the evolution of second order colonial powers. Nations like Freihafen, Nouvelle Provence, Wellon, Nibelungen and to a degree Alicia all have the potential to overhaul their home nations in the same way America overhauled Britain.

I disagree on Manchuria, Trilon and the US as the 'big powers'. Manchuria may well pass France as the hegemon on Earth but it is not expansive enough to do so off-world IMO. It is still a somewhat introverted power. The US (and Australia) will have probably gone through the same colonial problems as the other nations with many of their Rimward Arm colonies heading to independence. (Plus the US still as one of the leading powers is just a little dull.) As for Trilon, well unless it has managed to transform itself into a nation I can't see it lasting a century and rather going the way of the British and Dutch East India Companies - which is not to say that a 'post megacorporate' state of Kie-Yuma couldn't be one of those second order colonial powers.

Indeed I might go for the likes of Brazil as one who might be keeping its extra-solar and terran affaires best in order.

The implosion of French Africa could well be interesting, but I would see it evolving in competition with, rather than alongside the UAR and Azania. I could see a Meghrebi block of Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco and a very wealthy Central African block built around Gabon and the beanstalk.

I disagree with the American/Australian monopolisation of Aquilan technology in the same way I disagreed with Trilon monopoly of tug technology in 2320. Technology just doesn't stay in the hands of one state if it is remote commercially viable.

I like the rekindling of the Kafer War, together with an 'Accord Fleet'. Although I would see such a fleet with a core of 'Accord' warships but with national contingents added to it. I would suggest that Aurore is its homeworld and fief along with other occupied Kafer worlds. I'd suggest the the '3rd Invasion' might have been as strongly carried through the backdoor into the American Arm as into the French again. This would have helped move along the independence of Ellis and other colonies.

As for the colonies, I'd suggest that Nibelungen and Alicia are part of the 'new core' as major worlds. I'd support the BCV-EB finger as a series of dead worlds too long fought over and with some near de-facto Kafer colonies. I'd probably see the Wolf Cluster as more developed than you suggest, with the Tiranean powers as the lead colonial nations.

No dramas with the increase of importance of the central worlds of the Chinese Arm. I'm less enamoured of the Sung being 'on a par' with humanity as a concept. No problem with Sung merchants and corporations being highly involved and visible however, just I think humanity wouldn't quite allow them such free licence.

In general terms I think any 2400AD should head in the route of being deliberately post-2300 with the old Sol powers being firmly in eclipse - perhaps Manchuria being close to France's position in 2300 - primus inter pares but with the cracks beginning to show? The future instead being in the hand of the second order colonial powers and the more powerful foundations.

Dan

I have been toying with ideas for a 2400AD setting extrapolated from 2320AD. Some ideas:
 
The implosion of French Africa could well be interesting, but I would see it evolving in competition with, rather than alongside the UAR and Azania. I could see a Meghrebi block of Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco and a very wealthy Central African block built around Gabon and the beanstalk.

Indeed, the economic power of the beanstalk would certainly make the UAR and Azania envious. It is likely that at some point in France's decline they would have made a play for it. It certainly would have started very surreptitiously, but it could have (or be on the way toward) open warfare. I see the non-ESA powers wanting to either prop up the Beanstalk Nation or the UAR in an attempt to keep Azania from maintaining ESA control of the Beanstalk. This could very well lead to ESA becoming more and more obsolete if it fails.

I like the rekindling of the Kafer War, together with an 'Accord Fleet'. Although I would see such a fleet with a core of 'Accord' warships but with national contingents added to it. I would suggest that Aurore is its homeworld and fief along with other occupied Kafer worlds. I'd suggest the the '3rd Invasion' might have been as strongly carried through the backdoor into the American Arm as into the French again. This would have helped move along the independence of Ellis and other colonies.

I certainly see Aurore evolving from a Western Town into an almost Spartan nation with a strong siege mentality. Intolerant of the weak, very militant, etc. No room for pansies in Tanstaafl, for certain. I could see all of the colonies taken over by the Accord, which was one more nail in the coffin of France.

In general terms I think any 2400AD should head in the route of being deliberately post-2300 with the old Sol powers being firmly in eclipse - perhaps Manchuria being close to France's position in 2300 - primus inter pares but with the cracks beginning to show? The future instead being in the hand of the second order colonial powers and the more powerful foundations.

I would see the 2400 time period being the beginning of the end for the Solar-centricism of humanity. I see some of the bigger colonies (particularly the independent ones) evolving into core level planets with a bit more dynamism, allowing them to take the lead in directing humanity. Sol would not be irrelevant by 2400, but only the diehards would think that it is the main focus of where humanity is going.
 
One idea that I had was a series of sourcebooks, starting from 2050 and moving forward by 50 years jumps. (or 2100, and moving forward by 100 years). This forms a logical extrapolation forward dor the setting. These sourcebooks would have detailed society, politics, general state of exploration, wars int eh period, vehicles, ships and weapons, along with Star Cruiser-20 scenarios.
 
One idea that I had was a series of sourcebooks, starting from 2050 and moving forward by 50 years jumps. (or 2100, and moving forward by 100 years).

I would say start at 2100 and skip forward fifty years at a stretch.

Here's why:

1. 2100 sets the stage for the interstellar land rush. "In 2086, the theoretical basis for a practical star drive was established, and by 2100, several research establishments were well on their way to demonstrating a prototype." And the Melbourne Accords are signed in 2099.

The atmosphere would be more of a noir, end of an era thing. Everyone knows that the way things have been done is going to change, and soon. The prosperous stations over Jupiter and the long-planned cities on Mars will fade away. People talk about "when things change," like they can feel it in the air.

2. By 2150, the stage has changed completely. There has been a war that forced a compromise about who can claim land on a planet. This was especially helpful faced with the fact that a new planet exists to move to.

There are planets out there and scouts are needed. It's pirates and smugglers and wildcat prospectors as every lunatic asteroid miner stuck in the Solar System that can afford to, slaps a stutterwarp drive on their jalopy and high-tails it to where it's really quiet.

3. 2200 has a number of new colony worlds and a number of worlds on the cusp of colonization. King and Beta Canum will be colonized soon. The French have just set up shop on Beowulf. Chengdu's colony is doing well, but the Japanese colony on Han Shan is not doing well at all.

There are rumors that out past Beowulf there are dozens of unexplored, unknown planets that are just waiting to be discovered.

4. 2250 is right on the cusp of contact with the Pentapods and the Sung. There is also a report from Daikoku that a survey team may have turned up ruins from an as-of-yet unknown source.
 
Indeed, the economic power of the beanstalk would certainly make the UAR and Azania envious. It is likely that at some point in France's decline they would have made a play for it. It certainly would have started very surreptitiously, but it could have (or be on the way toward) open warfare. I see the non-ESA powers wanting to either prop up the Beanstalk Nation or the UAR in an attempt to keep Azania from maintaining ESA control of the Beanstalk. This could very well lead to ESA becoming more and more obsolete if it fails.

I think by now ESA is a dead letter, might be a huge bureaucracy still ticking over somewhere but no-one takes much notice of it. I'm not sure how much traction the UAR would have over a (still) Francophone 'Centrafrique' which is probably not an insignificant military, political and economic power in its own right.

I certainly see Aurore evolving from a Western Town into an almost Spartan nation with a strong siege mentality. Intolerant of the weak, very militant, etc. No room for pansies in Tanstaafl, for certain. I could see all of the colonies taken over by the Accord, which was one more nail in the coffin of France.

And the Tanstaaflians are weak as piss when compared to the Novi Kievites and the Auroran pieds noire ;-)

I would see the 2400 time period being the beginning of the end for the Solar-centricism of humanity. I see some of the bigger colonies (particularly the independent ones) evolving into core level planets with a bit more dynamism, allowing them to take the lead in directing humanity. Sol would not be irrelevant by 2400, but only the diehards would think that it is the main focus of where humanity is going.

I can see the situation like that (as mentioned) in the Cherryh Merchanter books. Earth is still there and very powerful, but introverted and now the extra-solar powers are the ones with the initiative and doing all the running.. The fall of the French Empire, especially in Africa and a 3rd CAW could be the trigger for that sort of change of focus.

Dan
 
Lots of fun ideas here. I generally agree that the 24th century is the final eclipse of the solar system as the true center of power: power now resides in "the Core", and there are noticeable concentrations far out.

Of course, one assumption that may not hold up is that nations of some form are the biggest players. It could be that alliances (like an extended US-Australian union with perhaps Canada, New Zealand and Mexico as members) or new transnational groupings (like my Accord) could become dominant. Over the span of a century what constitutes a key power can change immeasurably.

Post-megacorporate states might be interesting to explore. What happens when megacorps turn into states? Maybe they organize things like Nozick's idea in Anarchy, State, Utopia, becoming a nightwatch state ensuring rule of law and security within a domain, with internal microstates/megacorps with their own constitutions and styles. So Trilon space or the 61 Cygni cluster are like Norlonto of Ken Macleod's novels - you can find the Trotskist colonies side by side with objectivist transhumanists and Mormon megacorps. They have to keep peace with each other and can trade thanks to their for-profit meta-government. Manchuria is in a way doing the same on its arm.

I don't think the Americans will be able to monopolize Aquilan/Ylii tech, but being best posed to make money from it. After all, anybody can make silicon chips, but Silicon Valley is still around (and the chips are even made elsewhere these days). Maybe the Sung were early on willing to use some risky techniques and get an advantage; they are now the Taiwan of cutting-edge robotics, even if the experts on Aquila AI are humans.

I doubt anybody would be trying to go to war to get the Gabon beanstalk: it is all about business, and war is bad for business - especially if there are two alternative beanstalks where trade can go. Instead the long and complex fall of the French Empire leads to a long and complex struggle over the African economy with influence over Gabon the prize. I can see the emergence of new African blocks, with Azania starting to go post-ESA (in my setting Azania is subtly helping the Fromme rebels; in the long run France might find itself betrayed by Azania altogether as it decides to go its own way).

Aurore might be both Sparta and a libertarian haven; both can coexist. If the Accord is using the system as its staging post for the Arcturus front it would develop into a booming war supply/maintenance economy with a great deal of need for distributed infrastructure from the occasional raids. Similarly there will be at least one similar staging point on the American arm. The Accord could well be running its own colonies and outposts, designed from the start with an eye on supplying the war effort.

One interesting possibility might be that the Latin finger colonies are now emerging as the new Latin renaissance: leaving aside the tired squabbles of South America they are now networking with Mexico, the Incas and Venezuela for an interstellar "Mercosur" that Brazil and Argentina grudgingly are joining.
 
The Beanstalks main contribution to the economy is power production. As previously noted, it simply can't handle anything but a tiny percentage of interface travel, although that's cheaper (but only in the 2300AD command economy systems, if the free market was applied, the cost of Beanstalk travel would rapidly inflate)
 
Of course, one assumption that may not hold up is that nations of some form are the biggest players. It could be that alliances (like an extended US-Australian union with perhaps Canada, New Zealand and Mexico as members) or new transnational groupings (like my Accord) could become dominant. Over the span of a century what constitutes a key power can change immeasurably.

We might add a Tiranean federation or confederation to this list. "Long live the Arkadian Union!"

One interesting possibility might be that the Latin finger colonies are now emerging as the new Latin renaissance: leaving aside the tired squabbles of South America they are now networking with Mexico, the Incas and Venezuela

And Texas?

for an interstellar "Mercosur" that Brazil and Argentina grudgingly are joining.

I'd buy that. Hey, I'd buy that for the post-Fourth Rio Plata War environment. What bothers me about that Argentine-Brazilian rivalry is that, never mind the stated grounds for the conflict, is that it really doesn't make much sense to sustain it for centuries given the obvious economic advantages to both parties, on Earth and in the Chinese Arm, for simple peace if not outright alliance.

It occurs to me just now that Kwantung will face interesting questions.
 
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The Beanstalks main contribution to the economy is power production. As previously noted, it simply can't handle anything but a tiny percentage of interface travel, although that's cheaper (but only in the 2300AD command economy systems, if the free market was applied, the cost of Beanstalk travel would rapidly inflate)

A thought for a 24th century game might simply be that further materials breakthroughs and the nanotech revolution that Anders mentions might be an upgrading of beanstalks literally "on the fly" - the machines replace materials at the molecular level along the length of the beanstalk.

I think it's conceivable and more interesting if by the time the 24th century rolls around, the French beanstalks are about as useful as rope bridge over a chasm compared to the hypertensioned things they're talking about building today. Even without nanoids upgrading existing beanstalks, materials technology, engineering know-how, and simple experience of the issues of "beanstalking" means that future beanstalks will be cheaper, easier/faster to build, and more durable (all other factors being equal - a corrupt regime or a lower-tech one obviously might have problems). The second beanstalk built on Earth could have widespread ramifications for the French one if the other ones are simply better than the French one in all the ways that matter.

Perhaps the maturing of beanstalk technology means that bulk goods such as grain, ore, and all the other things that are really impossible to ship for profit in 2300 and 2320 (though the Colonial Atlas repeatedly makes mention of grain and ore being shipped) could become economical to lift. The Beanstalks of the 24th century can accept hundreds of thousands of cars making the ascent and descent at any given time or there's fewer cars but they move much faster than the leisurely speed of the 2300 beanstalk due to better power transmission systems and materials that can take a lot more strain. A gradual shift like this would make beanstalks from the eighth wonder of the world into something that basically divides "frontier settlements" from worlds that plan to become "core-like" one day. The cost efficiency of Beanstalks going up would mean you could have a much more "traditional" relationship of "finished goods for raw materials" trades between worlds and so on.

Perhaps the pentapods and provolutionists have blown everyone's pants off by making something that Jack might recognize - a biological beanstalk. It looks vaguely like some like a titanic tree growing from a planet (in reality, it'd be a lot different, they'd put the "seed" in a cluster of carbonaceous and ice asteroids towed into orbit where it'd "grow" and lower down it's "trunk" to the planet's surface, where it would sprout "roots" into the planet's crust). It'd sprout enormous leaves to collect solar power, while the other end would drill into the planet's mantle to serve as a geothermal tap. It would use a massively scaled up version of peristalic action to push cargo pods up and down inside of dozens of hollow "veins" inside the trunk. This beanstalk might take a lot longer to build (perhaps a decade or two) on the other hand, once it's started, it really only needs a skeleton crew to "catch" the tethering vine and secure it in the ground.
 
Perhaps the maturing of beanstalk technology means that bulk goods such as grain, ore, and all the other things that are really impossible to ship for profit in 2300 and 2320 (though the Colonial Atlas repeatedly makes mention of grain and ore being shipped) could become economical to lift. The Beanstalks of the 24th century can accept hundreds of thousands of cars making the ascent and descent at any given time or there's fewer cars but they move much faster than the leisurely speed of the 2300 beanstalk due to better power transmission systems and materials that can take a lot more strain. A gradual shift like this would make beanstalks from the eighth wonder of the world into something that basically divides "frontier settlements" from worlds that plan to become "core-like" one day. The cost efficiency of Beanstalks going up would mean you could have a much more "traditional" relationship of "finished goods for raw materials" trades between worlds and so on.

Grain and ore is viable to lift anyway. The Beanstalk is only a moderate increase in efficiency on a Catapult (the Beanstalk costing 5/6ths of a Catapult shot per ton), although neither can handle vast bulks that well.

A ton of flour costs Lv900 to orbit. Today a ton of flour costs about Lv150-450 depending on the grade. While high compared to the 1980's, it's a fairly low historical price still. A 2300AD ton of flour is probably wholesaled at a much higher price. A ton of flour is calorifically 5,000 meals, or at most Lv5,000 at retail in 2300AD (ignoring the higher cost of meat, the lower cost of potatoes etc.).

For flour to breakeven on interstellar commerce, flour needs to be about Lv2,000-Lv2,500 per ton retail (since colonial exports are normally about 50% of whole sale, and the transport costs are ca Lv1,000-Lv1,250), this is well within the estimates for food costs on Earth.

If flour can be moved economically, then meat perhaps can (although it suffers from much lower density than flour), and higher end metal ore certainly can, perhaps even high grade iron, although belt supplies will undercut that.
 
Most large-scale technologies come down in price quite a bit over time, and beanstalks would probably be pretty everyday in 2400 - not cheap, but the thing a planet builds to really link into the interstellar community. A bit like how current nations want international airports. I hold the view that even 2300 beanstalks have a noticeable cargo capacity (even if this means they have to be a bit non-canon), and planets with them reduce orbit-ground costs significantly. This in turn makes their exports cheap, travel easy and enables constructing local big space infrastructure rapidly and economically.

By 2400 I would expect beanstalks on all Core worlds (often several, since they do have capacity limitations even in my more optimistic view) and most well-developed colonies. The exceptions are places like Neubayern that are tidally locked or King with too high gravity - these limitations may actually hold them back.

Biotech beanstalks would be terribly cool. The plant would need to produce something like nanotubes since ordinary organic substances do not have great tensile strength (cellulose nanofibrils break at 214 MPa, nanotubes at 63,000 MPa; maybe composites could reach beyond 19,000 MPa). I could imagine the Pentapods making a Dyson tree for mining/converting carbonaceous asteroids into beanstalks. Maybe something for Kimanjano? Once the basic cable is in place it can start pumping up ocean water and organics to thicken itself.

But I wouldn't trust Pentapod beanstalks that much; they would probably seed a dozen instead of just one, and not mind if a few failed. "Just a few thousand individuals and a few atolls were lost, not a big setback. Besides, the local scavengers had been looking colorless and lean recently", said Pentapod Concerned With Beanstalks when asked about its view on the recent disaster.
 
Most large-scale technologies come down in price quite a bit over time, and beanstalks would probably be pretty everyday in 2400 - not cheap, but the thing a planet builds to really link into the interstellar community. A bit like how current nations want international airports. I hold the view that even 2300 beanstalks have a noticeable cargo capacity (even if this means they have to be a bit non-canon), and planets with them reduce orbit-ground costs significantly. This in turn makes their exports cheap, travel easy and enables constructing local big space infrastructure rapidly and economically.

I did the maths in my last attempt to reply to this, before firefox refreshed the page 5 seconds before hitting send. However, Beanstalks do not offer a major advantage over catapults for primary resource export, and the cost of a Beanstalk (twice the annual GDP of Hexagon France) doesn't justify it. Only secondary production being traded justifies it, and in Traveller terms, most colonies have TL-6 to 7 economies, vs TL-12 for Earth.
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By 2400 I would expect beanstalks on all Core worlds (often several, since they do have capacity limitations even in my more optimistic view) and most well-developed colonies. The exceptions are places like Neubayern that are tidally locked or King with too high gravity - these limitations may actually hold them back.

Most colonies don't justify the expense for a slim advantage. On the French Arm Joi, Nous Voila and Kie-Yuma are too mineral poor to support industrial economies, Crater, Dunkelheim and Kimanjano are too resource extraction based and too bioresource poor to develop large industrial economies. Beowulf has the major issue of the Swordtide. Only Aurore and Adlerhorst are possibilities (aside from BCV-4) for development into industrial economies needing beanstalks (Hochbaden, of course, had such low gravity that catapult shots were actually cheaper than a Beanstalk).

Biotech beanstalks would be terribly cool. The plant would need to produce something like nanotubes since ordinary organic substances do not have great tensile strength (cellulose nanofibrils break at 214 MPa, nanotubes at 63,000 MPa; maybe composites could reach beyond 19,000 MPa). I could imagine the Pentapods making a Dyson tree for mining/converting carbonaceous asteroids into beanstalks. Maybe something for Kimanjano? Once the basic cable is in place it can start pumping up ocean water and organics to thicken itself.

But I wouldn't trust Pentapod beanstalks that much; they would probably seed a dozen instead of just one, and not mind if a few failed. "Just a few thousand individuals and a few atolls were lost, not a big setback. Besides, the local scavengers had been looking colorless and lean recently", said Pentapod Concerned With Beanstalks when asked about its view on the recent disaster.

Biotech, aka Wood. It's a cliche of sci-fi, but not very realistic, one of what the chap at stardestroyer.net would call a brain bug: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/BrainBugs.html

Even the Pentapod articles note the problems, so the Pentapods started doing odd things like building metal hulls....
 
On the French Arm Joi, Nous Voila and Kie-Yuma are too mineral poor to support industrial economies

Well, you certainly have your own ideas of economics and I seem to have mine (see previous threads on economic growth). But I cannot possibly see an entire planet as being too mineral poor to sustain an industrial economy. Are you arguing that there is no metals whatsoever in the crust of the planets? Or that fusion power is not enough to extract them?

Biotech, aka Wood. It's a cliche of sci-fi, but not very realistic. Even the Pentapod articles note the problems, so the Pentapods started doing odd things like building metal hulls....

What part of "high-strength biocomposites based on microfibrillated cellulose having nano-order-unit web-like network structure" did you not understand? Whether 19 GPa tensile strength is enough for a beanstalk at a typical Earth is of course debatable, but it is definitely usable for lighter worlds (kevlar is, if I remember right, enough for Mars beanstalks). People like to handwave biotech as being just like normal natural products, but it doesn't have to be remotely similar to the stuff that naturally evolve. I don't see any reason why the above phenolic resin cannot be produced by an organism and we know cellulose can be, so the only serious issue is whether a biotech lifeform could be made that sustains itself in space (serious dessication issues, so the main limiting factor could be ice availability rather than carbon availability).
 
Well, you certainly have your own ideas of economics and I seem to have mine (see previous threads on economic growth). But I cannot possibly see an entire planet as being too mineral poor to sustain an industrial economy. Are you arguing that there is no metals whatsoever in the crust of the planets? Or that fusion power is not enough to extract them?

Well, GDW had their own ideas of the economics of the situation. They actually state Joi is too mineral poor for industrialisation.

I have no idea why you think a slightly more efficient power production mechanism than fission is going to fundamentally alter mineral availability. Ore mining is independent of ore refinement.

What part of "high-strength biocomposites based on microfibrillated cellulose having nano-order-unit web-like network structure" did you not understand? Whether 19 GPa tensile strength is enough for a beanstalk at a typical Earth is of course debatable, but it is definitely usable for lighter worlds (kevlar is, if I remember right, enough for Mars beanstalks). People like to handwave biotech as being just like normal natural products, but it doesn't have to be remotely similar to the stuff that naturally evolve. I don't see any reason why the above phenolic resin cannot be produced by an organism and we know cellulose can be, so the only serious issue is whether a biotech lifeform could be made that sustains itself in space (serious dessication issues, so the main limiting factor could be ice availability rather than carbon availability).

Maybe it's my doubt that a plant can generate 1,000 atmospheres of internal pressure (yes, reread the paper) while generating (or rather cooling itself) to a mere 350 Kelvin while in sequence producing high (denaturing) molarities of base (indeed, oven cleaning concentrations), acid and bleach, then dropping down to ca 100K. The reaction conditions are so harsh that an organic steel smelter is more credible, or indeed a chocolate teapot.

Then maybe my questions about how a uniform semi-crystal structure is going to be achieved (while compressing at 1,000 atm etc.), the very word "nano" (a horrific buzzword, much misused) implies it's unsuitable for spinning.
 
Interesting....

Not that I have Traveller 2300AD any more but, I do dig this thread, as I am a beanstalk hopeful...

The Brain Bug is also known as a 'Toxic' Meme....what, I'm a Transhumanist. Sue me! :p

Still, as I recall, the biggest issue with the beanstalk isn't just the strength of the Stalk, it's also radiation damage, oxidation, and general weather, but I have been vaguely keeping up on NASA's beanstalk stuff and they devote a lot of paper on these subjects.

Still, got to love science fiction, handwavium is still the most powerful force in the universe, it trumps everything else. :D So go with what you like or do tons of research and still end up using technobabble and handwavium....for now.

EDIT: Oh and it's true the power production of a beanstalk is sick house.
 
>Or that fusion power is not enough to extract them?
>Ore mining is independent of ore refinement

If power and heat costs were marginal, it would be worthwhile 'mining' Earth's sea water for minerals including metals today. Would have to be done on a massive and integrated scale but if the power were basically free ..... desalinated water, fertilisers and nearly pure metals (probably in powder form) would be the result with less harmful byproducts than normal mining/refining.

flash boiling the seawater of 'metal poor' Joi would be the most difficult way of gaining metals. extracting it from ordinary dirt gains you far more and a far broader mix of outputs, especially if you don't need the seawater>freshwater byproduct.
 
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