A-bomb pumped Meson missiles?

[Father Fletch]

So here is a little salvo for the gearheads out there. Those of us in the Fighters++ group have to admit that with nuclear dampers and repulsors the one-shot-one-kill fighter-launched ship-killer is sort of out of the question in O-T-U. But, what if the same nuclear pumping used for the lasers were upgraded to Particle accelerators? Or Meson beams? All of a sudden the fighter attack has new oomph! Certainly they have to get through the other guys fighter screen, destroyer screen, anti missile laser screen, and the dampers still have some potential, but, if the Meson missile makes it through, BAM! Even a dreadnaught might have to bring some carriers along for escort.
I realize that it is only by TL 14-15 IIRC that meson guns come down to even bay weapon size. And Striker doesn't have them until TL 15 for battlefield deployment. But perhaps a 1/10 size version of a battlefield gun would still do the trick? Since the bomb is being used for pumping, the energy needs are met.
YMMV, but I certainly am considering this for use in MTU.

 

[mike wightman]

If you want to consider one shot ship killer torpedo type weapons how about these two.

1.antimatter warheads- no way will it take another 8 TLs before we can make this stuff in usable quantities so lower the TL of introducing antimatter misslies to TL12 and have treaties between major powers banning them.

2.molecular disruption device(thanks to Orson Scott Card) - a bomb pumped device which produces a disintegration beam (a development from nuclear damper/meson screen technology), later adapted as a spinal mount weapon, which kills a ship if it hits. Again, have treaties between major powers banning them.

 

[aramis]

Meson Battlesuits!

Seriously, tho, a meson spinal to a decent missile with battery power is a serious possibility in FF&S.

Add chem rockets, and autonomous capability, and it's a real threat.

Add a pilot, and it's a meson-armed fighter. Which is a small part of why I no longer use TNE/FF&S.... effective 10 ton meson fighters.... yeah, the range is rather short, but with all the stealth kits...

 

[cmdrx]

Although not as leathal as bomb pumped PAWS and Mesons, I did come up with the idea of a missile or drone that did fire high energy or fusing plasma. Thats right, a plasma/fusion gun missile. This was using the technology from FF&S, the pulsed fusion cartridges or somesuchthing but on a larger scale. The missile was destroyed by the pulse but not before the shot got off. With the limited range of these weapons, putting them in a missile seemed a good idea at the time. FF&S allowed some rather interesting toys...

Then there was the meson grenade...

 

[BetterThanLife]

Wouldn't it be prudent to first figure out how to make fighters effective against fighters? If you take a pair of FH from Supp 9 they will fight to a standstill and neither seriously damage the other. I think that is the first step to making Fighters worth the tonnage to carry them, except for Ground Support. Then worry about killing something bigger.

 

[mike wightman]

Wouldn't it be prudent to first figure out how to make fighters effective against fighters? If you take a pair of FH from Supp 9 they will fight to a standstill and neither seriously damage the other. I think that is the first step to making Fighters worth the tonnage to carry them, except for Ground Support. Then worry about killing something bigger.

Try replacing the beam laser with a factor 5 fusion gun

. That will score 1 automatic critical hit after the armour is taken into account and don't forget to lower the armour rating by 1 for next turn. That will result in 2 criticals the next turn, etc.
Also make sure the missiles carried are nuclear.

The biggest broblem I can find is them hitting each other in the first place. Using High Guard their defensive DM is -8(agility 6, size mod -2) so unless you play a natural 12 is a hit then fighters can't hit each other.

 

[Rupert Boleyn]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
If you want to consider one shot ship killer torpedo type weapons how about these two.

1.antimatter warheads- no way will it take another 8 TLs before we can make this stuff in usable quantities so lower the TL of introducing antimatter misslies to TL12 and have treaties between major powers banning them.

An anti-matter missile is just a powerful nuke in its effects, so all this really does is explain MT's TL17 (IIRC) jump in missile power.

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Try replacing the beam laser with a factor 5 fusion gun

. That will score 1 automatic critical hit after the armour is taken into account and don't forget to lower the armour rating by 1 for next turn. That will result in 2 criticals the next turn, etc.
Also make sure the missiles carried are nuclear.

The biggest broblem I can find is them hitting each other in the first place. Using High Guard their defensive DM is -8(agility 6, size mod -2) so unless you play a natural 12 is a hit then fighters can't hit each other.

As I read the HG rules, adding a factor-5 fusion gun doesn't solve the main trouble of hitting each other. A f-5 beam battery needs to roll a 5+ to hit, and with a defensive modifier of -8 you can't hit, even on a 12.

Now, adding a fusion gun costs the FH two points of Agility, which would allow fusion-armed FHs to hit each other on an 11+. Maybe this is what you were thinking.

 

[mike wightman]

I've just been reading the Missile Special Supplement that came with a journal(no 21).
It lists several types of wahead:

high explosive, TL6, 2 hits per 10kg;

focussed force explosive, TL9, 4 hits per 10kg(max 30kg or 12 hits);

fission, TL8, 10 hits per 0.1 kt yield, plus 2 radiation hits per 0.1kt yield, mass 30kg, yield 0.1 to 10 kt (10 to 1000 hits + 2 to 200 radiation hits!!!);

fusion, TL10, 10 hits per 0.1kt yield, plus 2 radiation hits per 0.1kt yield, mass 20kg, yield 0.1 to 10kt (again 10 to 1000 hits + 2 to 200 radiation hits);

enhanced radiation, TL9, 8 radiation hits per 0.1 kt yield, 5 hits per 0.1kt kt yield if in contact, no ordinary hits if proximity detonated, mass 20kg, yield 0.1 to 10kt (8 to 800 radiation hits + 5 to 500 contact hits)

A couple of notes:
firstly, a missile rack missile has a mass of 50kg, the masses above are for warhead only;
second, the cost of the nuclear options is 1MCr per 0.1kt yield;
finally, contact detonation doubles the number of standard hits for all apart from the enhanced radiation warhead.
Since the nuclear damper has never been translated into book 2 combat then a big nuclear missile becomes a ship killer.
Actually, looking at these rules, the nuclear missiles of High Guard could do with upgrading IMHO.

 

[mike wightman]

As I read the HG rules, adding a factor-5 fusion gun doesn't solve the main trouble of hitting each other. A f-5 beam battery needs to roll a 5+ to hit, and with a defensive modifier of -8 you can't hit, even on a 12.

Hi Oz,
emmm, you did read the last sentence of my post didn't you?

Anyway I agree, they can't hit each other (and just to be picky the roll to hit for a f5 beam battery is 6+ in my copies of HG )

Now, adding a fusion gun costs the FH two points of Agility, which would allow fusion-armed FHs to hit each other on an 11+. Maybe this is what you were thinking.

Do you know I didn't give it a thought .
You are quite correct their agilities would drop to 4. Thanks

.
Let's see now 6+ base to hit, --2 for size, --4 for agility, total roll a 12 to hit. Hoorah! They can noe hit each other once in a blue moon.
Of course you could always build a TL15 99t heavy fighter which can carry a fusion gun, a missile rack, have agility 6 and an armour factor of at least 8. It may even have a bridge and a better computer. I think I'll give it a go and see.

 

[Tobias]

The technology for bomb-pumped lasers, as originally envisioned for 2300, does not work with any other weapon than a laser.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[BetterThanLife]

I was under the impression that your mixed turrets only allowed Laser, Sand or Missile combinations. (I know T20 specifies it.)

You don't need to go as big as 99t. With a little planning you can easily add a bridge to a FH. (Remove the stateroom and cut your duration to less than a month.) Just cutting your duration depending on how far you cut it will put you close.

In T20 where computer size seems to matter less and Armor more you can cut the computer to a factor 5 keep your agility as 6 (You are required to have a bridge.) add a second stateroom and a seat for a third crewman (EW/Computer operator) Take the armor to 15 and you can have a Triple Laser or a Dual Fusion. AC=32! A Missile bay will still scrag it (eventually with either Nukes or Laser Heads) but another fighter can't hurt it.

The problem is it isn't going to really hurt most things with a missile bay, it has a really difficult time killing even an FL so it is still relegated to the Ground Support role (where it is excessively nasty.)(A TL15 15T FL with a trip laser and a 2.8 day endurance can have 4 points of armor. Possibly more.) Even a factor 5 fusion gun is only going to do 1D damage and the FL AC is 20. If you can get close enough to use the fusion gun. (Since they are equal in regards to speed and agility.) the advantage you really get with a FH is the bigger Computer and hence the better sensors. If the FL is a Rampart2 with Nukes it is almost as likely to score a Crit hit and all your extra armor is then useless. Ace Fighter Pilots anyone? Sorry my Ace pilots are Cruiser Drivers or Drednaught Drivers.

I would almost rather have a Kinunir.

 

[BetterThanLife]

That makes sense. You are probably harnessing the flash with crystals to focus lasers. that wouldn't work for other energy weapons. Even the NASA design for the ABomb Engine the Bomb was exploded behind the ship and the ship rode the blast wave. (I was never quite clear how that would work in a vaccuum but that was the design.)

Originally posted by Tobias:
The technology for bomb-pumped lasers, as originally envisioned for 2300, does not work with any other weapon than a laser.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[mike wightman]

I've just done a google search about nuclear bomb pumped x ray lasers and do you want to know what I've found out?
They don't work, they were just one of Edward Tellers' schemes to get money for "star wars" research during the Reagan era.
It's not all bad news, however, because x ray lasers have been built and used in labs around the world for some time now. Again, try a google search for x ray laser.

 

[Father Fletch]

THE concept for x-ray lasers goes back to the

They don't work, they were just one of Edward Tellers' schemes to get money for "star wars" research during the Reagan era.

Curious you should say that when this page , which cites peer reviewed publication, states:
1970s, when physicists realized that laser beams amplified with ions would have much higher energies than beams amplified using gases. Nuclear explosions were even envisioned as a power supply for these high-energy lasers. That vision became a reality at the time of the Strategic Defense Initiative of the 1980s, when x-ray laser beams initiated by nuclear explosives were generated underground at the Nevada Test Site. Livermore's Novette, the precursor of the Nova laser, was used for the first laboratory demonstration of an x-ray laser in 1984
Seems like it might work...

 

[aramis]

Grazers (Gamma Ray lasers, aka GRLasers) are also theoretically possible in bomb pumped lasers.

Seriously, tho, the induced current differential in a decent sized starship should be noticeable with ANY atomic bomb-pumped laser/xrlaser/grlaser at the ranges we're talking about. Plus hard radiation and soft radiation galore. Theory for bomb pumped lasers became really public in the mid 80's; I don't know the origin date of the theory, but I suspect it wouldn't have been a factor in Mayday's 1977-78 design. (Original copyright 1978...)

 

[mike wightman]

Oh, there's nothing wrong with the concept, it just seems to be unworkable from a targeting point of view. Also the idea has been quietly abandoned according to here and here .
Looks like another case of a GDW employee reading about some leading edge science and wishfull thinking, much like the "meson" gun which has recently (Traveller's Aide 7) been re-written but not explained.

 

[BetterThanLife]

In space combat targeting is less of an issue. Assume the lasers go out in all directions you are likely to get at lease some hits. It doesn't have to be precise, we aren't trying to hit a bullet here.

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Oh, there's nothing wrong with the concept, it just seems to be unworkable from a targeting point of view. Also the idea has been quietly abandoned according to here and here .
Looks like another case of a GDW employee reading about some leading edge science and wishfull thinking, much like the "meson" gun which has recently (Traveller's Aide 7) been re-written but not explained.

 

[mike wightman]

In space combat targeting is less of an issue.

I think targeting is the most important issue in space combat, of course I could be wrong .

Assume the lasers go out in all directions you are likely to get at lease some hits.

If the lasers go out in all directions then what's the point of them being lasers. You would get the same effect from a regular nuclear explosion.

It doesn't have to be precise, we aren't trying to hit a bullet here.

Let's see, hitting a 2cm long bullet at a range of say 100m (10,000cm) compared with hitting a 300m long ship at a range of say 0.5 light seconds (150,000,000m) and don't forget the bullet isn't evading or shooting back. I would say hitting the bullet is the easier task

.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> In space combat targeting is less of an issue.

I think targeting is the most important issue in space combat, of course I could be wrong .

Assume the lasers go out in all directions you are likely to get at lease some hits.

If the lasers go out in all directions then what's the point of them being lasers. You would get the same effect from a regular nuclear explosion.

It doesn't have to be precise, we aren't trying to hit a bullet here.

Let's see, hitting a 2cm long bullet at a range of say 100m (10,000cm) compared with hitting a 300m long ship at a range of say 0.5 light seconds (150,000,000m) and don't forget the bullet isn't evading or shooting back. I would say hitting the bullet is the easier task

. </font>[/QUOTE]