General Looking for advice on military rockball landings.

[Spinward Flow]

Command would send the ISS assets in first.
Especially since they have been in-system and observing the targets the entire time......so, they'd have the best situational awareness and intel

Whut.

How ... leisurely ... of a recon allowance are you assuming here?
Are you thinking in terms of "jump lag" at all?

Yes, I should have specified. Neutral space about a dozen parsecs away from Imperial space.

@GLΩAMING has not yet provided a J# limiting number for the routing to get to this location, but if it's 3+ then it's unlikely that Type-S Scout/Couriers can be dispatched to go have a look-see (and report back).

Assuming we're talking about a destination "12 parsecs away" (basically "a subsector over thataway"), even at J2 that's going to be something close to a 7 week voyage one way (because refueling after each jump will take time) even if you're making 6J2 to get there. How long did it take the PCs to jump that far to bring word about this to the IN?

HOW MUCH TIME IS BURNING AWAY while dithering with a recon mission via Scout/Couriers that could take 15+ weeks to jump out, do recon of the system, then jump back to report?

Do YOU want it to go on your service record that when warned of an "unexpected fleet of assets" in unknown condition that because of your command decisions, it took HALF A YEAR to launch a task force to deal with the situation?

Also, why are you assuming that IISS assets are just ... THERE ... in no time at all after the PCs report comes in?
Does the IISS have (ansible grade) teleportation tech or something that allows them to transit "about a dozen parsecs" in no time flat?

Probably not, to all of these. I generally wouldn't repair something that uses specifications older than my interstellar state. And the idea of repairing an ancient battleship at the cost of millions of credits to serve as a museum piece sounds like a far, far future Onion article.

The IN is probably "uninterested" in the mothball fleet as a "return to service" type of military asset (and I agree that restoring them as museum pieces would just be ... wasteful).

That said, it's possible that the computers of that mothball fleet may have information that could be of military (intel) value, present day ... such as Calibration Point(s) that do not appear on modern day maps, which would be worth investigating (and if possible, securing).

So while the IN is probably "not interested" in the mothball fleet as a target for repair/refit/reuse ... you know who would be?



Therefore, just because the IN might not be interested in restoring the fleet to full functionality, any Pirate Kings lurking out there in the "wild space" beyond the border would most DEFINITELY be interested in securing that mothball fleet for themselves. Heck, even if the cultists were to simply SELL the mothball fleet to an interested Pirate King who could "get it fixed up and start wreaking havoc with it" would be enough to make heads roll at the IN for allowing that to happen after having been given warning and the opportunity to prevent it.

So the real threat of a restoration back into service wouldn't be coming from the IN, but from (deep pocketed) third parties who could put the mothballed fleet to use ... in ways that would basically make them warlords. The kind of firepower that a Tigress equivalent battleship can bring to bear is insignificant next to the power of The Force not something to be trifled with lightly, let alone allow to fall into the hands of malign actors lacking in honor (or accountability).

Point being that even if the IN has no interest in "keeping" the mothball fleet (for themselves, for use) ... the IN would have a VERY KEEN INTEREST in making sure that NO ONE ELSE can get their digital appendages onto it either.

"Limited site fry with smaller scale troop deployment" is the idea I'm currently going with for Imperial strategy here.

I agree.
However, the way the briefing in the OP reads suggests that dealing with this situation is going to be something you want to have to only deal with THE ONE TIME™. Attacking unsuccessfully (or even getting caught gathering recon) will put the cultists on alert, prompting a "hunker down" and observant response.

The best odds for success are to go in with enough forces (ground+support) to secure a victory by the commander on scene, rather than needing to send back and request reinforcements to deal with a situation that has spiraled out of control. The advantage of surprise on an initial strike is not something to be traded away (for nothing) lightly.

I feel like an isolationist cult wouldn't be repairing battleships...

The cultists might not ... but who are their suppliers and who supports the operations of their cult?
If you follow the money (and the gossip) trail, could it lead back to ... oh, I dunno ... ...?

Because if it does, the cult isn't your only concern here ...

 

[TamsinP]

That is another way to go,
and, as I said, that was my opinion where there are other opinions.....which are all equally valid.
Especially given @mike wightman 's comments and the very very valid competitions within the Armed Forces of the UK.

Though I am sure no one there (or, certainly not here in the US) would cast aspersions on the SAS. (Not that SpecF has any bearing on this conversation)

Well, the SBS might, in much the same way as the Royal Marines disparage the Parachute Regiment.

However, if you asked a Royal Marine who (other than another Royal Marine) he'd like to have fighting on his flank he'd say a Para or a Ghurka. And vice versa.

 

[Condottiere]

That's regimental rivalry, versus service strife.

 

[Commander Truestar]

Probably not, to all of these. I generally wouldn't repair something that uses specifications older than my interstellar state. And the idea of repairing an ancient battleship at the cost of millions of credits to serve as a museum piece sounds like a far, far future Onion article.

"Limited site fry with smaller scale troop deployment" is the idea I'm currently going with for Imperial strategy here. They may want to know how an outborder cult got enough resources to even consider repairing these things, and how this mothballed fleet wasn't red-flagged beforehand. It's hard to gather evidence if the site and all its inhabitants have been fried by meson fire.

I feel like an isolationist cult wouldn't be repairing battleships...
As for whether the neutral system is planned to be incorporated into the Imperium, no. However, it is located between the Imperium and other significant interstellar powers, relatively near vital trade links. Probably worthy of intervention.

Using data from the OTU, TL 15 and lower degrades.
To make any device that does not degrade over 1+ thousand years, it needs to be TL 16 or higher.

That said, IMTU, I grabbed hold of the edict enacted against the Natoko system(Rhylanor/Spinward Marches) [NOT: Natoko/Aramis/Spinward Marches...)

That edict stated that, because Natokan registered armed traders and military craft had been disabling and destroying ships from other worlds, they could not own or operate armed ships or fleets.

So, I built a story line on that where the world was working with other World or balkanized governments to hunt down drifting hulks
They would then recover those ships and "tow" them to covert bases orbiting brown stars
There, tech teams would use supplies covertly moved to those bases in order to restore those ships.

The story IMTU has run it's course thanks to my players having uncovered this activity and providing evidence to the Imperium.
This has triggered an Imperial Intervention in the Natoko system with additional investigations (Like the Stepozhevac nation on Porozlo/Rhylanor/Spinward Marches)

So, the idea has merit, but the "thousands of years old" suggestion is an issue

 

[Commander Truestar]

Whut.

How ... leisurely ... of a recon allowance are you assuming here?
Are you thinking in terms of "jump lag" at all?

In fact, jump-based communications are unform across this operation.
1) word is received of the "cult" operation and bucked up to regional command.(this requires a number of jumps)

2) A decision is made to act and initial orders are cut to:
A) Request an ISS recon force to investigate
B) Request a task force to be created to act "if needed"

3) The ISS recon force has to make their jumps to arrive in the designated system
- That does not delay the projected IN force because there is no indication it is needed yet

4) One Courier is dispatched from the ISS recon force and makes the jumps needed to report:
- The situation is validated
- The in-system assessment of "Cult" operations is evaluated and changes are "then made" to the designated task force
- The Task force is assembled and dispatched, and accompanied by the ISS Courier which had been dispatched

5) The Task force arrives on station and takes actions as appropriate

Other than the actual jumps needed to achieve those basic steps, where do you believe there are additional "jump-lag" issues that would affect the operation?

The absolute "Only" jump delay would be the need to re-direct ships which were not on station at the base from which the designated task force would sail.
And, that delay would only affect the force organization if there were not separate ships on station which could be swapped in to replace vessels not present.

 

[Commander Truestar]

Well, the SBS might, in much the same way as the Royal Marines disparage the Parachute Regiment.

However, if you asked a Royal Marine who (other than another Royal Marine) he'd like to have fighting on his flank he'd say a Para or a Ghurka. And vice versa.

As stated by @Condottiere, "That's regimental rivalry, versus service strife."
So, I recommend you scale back your opinion and examine the real world facts

 

[Spinward Flow]

In fact, jump-based communications are unform across this operation.

@GLΩAMING hasn't revealed the jump capability of the PC's starship ... so in the absence of that detail, let's just default to an assumption of (civilian) J2. Furthermore, we'll be generous and assume that the "12 parsecs from the imperial border" means that there are 6 worlds 2 parsecs apart in a nice convenient line between the Target™ and the naval base the PC's need to file their report at.

Let's also assume that the PC's "hightail it outta there" back to imperial space to report to the navy, wasting as little time as possible, so they aren't stopping to do business or trade along the way. It's pure "skim and jump" stuff.

And for convenience of the illustration (because it makes the math easier), let's say that the PCs "found" the situation on the date of 001-1106. I know that's not the actual in-game date, I'm trying to illustrate and make a point here.

• 001-1106 PCs in J2 starship "find something" and decide to make all possible speed back to imperial space, 12 parsecs away.
• 009-1106 1J2
• 017-1106 2J2
• 025-1106 3J2
• 033-1106 4J2
• 041-1106 5J2
• 049-1106 6J2 and the PCs have arrived in imperial space 7 weeks after their discovery (their intel is already getting "stale").
• 050-1106 PC's tell their story to naval authorities.
• 051-1106 A squadron of Type-S Scout/Couriers is dispatched to the target system.
• 059-1106 1J2
• 067-1106 2J2
• 074-1106 3J2
• 082-1106 4J2
• 090-1106 5J2
• 097-1106 6J2 and the recon squadron has arrived in the target system over 3 months after the PCs were last here.
• 105-1106 Recon squadron has compiled their intel report for the fleet, some Type-S Scout/Couriers are dispatched back to HQ.
• 113-1106 1J2
• 121-1106 2J2
• 129-1106 3J2
• 137-1106 4J2
• 145-1106 5J2
• 153-1106 6J2 and the recon squadron has arrived in imperial space and files their recon report, over 5 months after the initial discovery.
• 154-1106 IN command cuts orders for an Armored Cruiser to make ready to go to the target system, all crew need to be recalled.
• 161-1106 The Armored Cruiser has completed replenishment and outfitting for the mission, maneuvers to outbound jump point.
• 169-1106 1J4
• 177-1106 2J4
• 185-1106 3J4 and the Armored Cruiser arrives in the target system, recon squadron downloads intel, over 6 months after PCs discovery.

You'll note that such a timeline is probably "too fast" (rather than too slow), in part because it assumes a LOT of conveniences/efficiencies that probably aren't going to be there, but I would like to think that I've made my point.

Having the IISS dispatch a recon squadron of Type-S Scout/Couriers will "delay the inevitable" by ~100 days or so, just to "go out, take a look and report back" using a squadron of Type-S Scout/Couriers.



Trick question: Are the cultists going to be just "sitting on their hands with Nothing To Do™" during that extra 100 days needed to dispatch an IISS recon patrol?

Answer: Magic 8 Ball says NO.



Compare the above timeline to what would happen if the naval authorities "skip the IISS recon squadron" step completely, because the intel report of sensor logs brought in by the PCs is "convincing enough" to get the IN to move quickly (because intel goes "stale" the longer it sits around).

• 001-1106 PCs in J2 starship "find something" and decide to make all possible speed back to imperial space, 12 parsecs away.
• 009-1106 1J2
• 017-1106 2J2
• 025-1106 3J2
• 033-1106 4J2
• 041-1106 5J2
• 049-1106 6J2 and the PCs have arrived in imperial space 7 weeks after their discovery (their intel is already getting "stale").
• 050-1106 PC's tell their story to naval authorities.
• 051-1106 IN command cuts orders for an Armored Cruiser to make ready to go to the target system, all crew need to be recalled.
• 058-1106 The Armored Cruiser has completed replenishment and outfitting for the mission, maneuvers to outbound jump point.
• 066-1106 1J4
• 074-1106 2J4
• 082-1106 3J4 and the Armored Cruiser arrives in the target system, less than 3 months after PCs discovery.

Notice the difference in dates for when the Armored Cruiser can arrive in theater:

• 185-1106 with Type-S Scout/Courier recon AND report back to base
• 082-1106 with direct dispatch

Name a circumstance in which giving an opponent over 100 extra days to make a Tigress-class battleship equivalent "spaceworthy" would seem to be a good idea to a naval officer.

I'm hard pressed to think of any.
Your mileage may vary, of course.

 

[mike wightman]

The IISS is not the reconnaissance arm of the IN, the IN has its own reconnaissance ships.
The IISS is not the communication arm of the IN, the IN has its own couriers.
The IISS is not in the chain of command of the IN.

It would be like the US Navy sending in Coast Guard cutters to gain intelligence.

 

[Condottiere]

I think I got a better one.

Interservice insurgency.

And if you wonder why, it tends to come down to resource allocation.

And money.

Mostly money.

 

[kilemall]

The IISS is not the reconnaissance arm of the IN, the IN has its own reconnaissance ships.
The IISS is not in the chain of command of the IN.

It would be like the US Navy sending in Coast Guard cutters to gain intelligence.

During war the Coast Guard gets seconded to the Navy, and I have read blurbs that the same happens in the 3I. But I wouldn’t think normally.

OTOH scouts are intel and would be normally spotted in border neutral areas. The ubiquitous nature of the Type S and other longer range ships doing exploration might make them better for a discrete surveillance.

The other factor is that scouts are going to be everywhere, IN heavies not so much. The on scene scout and navy commanders might turn to the scouts on scene to get a Quick Look while the requisite heavies get moved up.

 

[TamsinP]

As stated by @Condottiere, "That's regimental rivalry, versus service strife."

My reply was in response to your assertion that nobody would cast aspersions on the SAS. I was pointing out that the Special Boat Service (the Royal Navy's special forces) might, in the form of typical British friendly inter-service rivalry.

Whilst my comment about Royal Marines vs Paras could be regarded as simple regimental rivalry, the Royal Marines are - technically - part of the Royal Navy (in the same way that the USMC is - technically - part of the USN), so it is also inter-service rivalry.

To the best of my knowledge and experience, the only inter-service strife occurs at the top level over budget priorities; I imagine the same applies to the armed forces of other nations. Below that level, it is just the friendly inter-service rivalry that I pointed out, and the different services respect each others' different capabilities and contributions to the whole.

The only part of the British army whose personnel are not the subject of any friendly disparagement is the Ghurkas, for the simple reason that nobody in the British Army has a death-wish.

When push comes to shove, inter-service and regimental rivalries get set aside. For example, the Falklands conflict all four services pulled together without issues - the Royal Marines and the Paras fought as part of the same brigade (along with the SBS and SAS), the RAF had squadrons flying from Royal Navy carriers alongside the Fleet Air Arm.

So, I recommend you scale back your opinion and examine the real world facts

To quote you from the original post, to which I replied:
"and, as I said, that was my opinion where there are other opinions.....which are all equally valid."
Therefore, my opinion (based on my own knowledge and experience* of the British armed forces) is valid and based on the real world.

*ex Royal Signals
father (and his father) were Royal Navy
brother-in-law is ex Royal Corps of Transport (and his father was ex RAF)
maternal great-uncle was Royal Artillery
I have had friends and colleagues who have served in the Royal Marines, the Parachute Regiment, the Guards, various other parts of the Army, the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force.
*I believe that qualifies me to speak to how different units regard each other.

 

[Spinward Flow]

The IISS is not the reconnaissance arm of the IN, the IN has its own reconnaissance ships.

Can you provide an example of one?
Just link to the wiki page for what you think the IN would dispatch on a recon mission.

The IISS is not the communication arm of the IN, the IN has its own couriers.

Fleet Couriers are indeed A Thing™ (LBB S9, p20).

The IISS is not in the chain of command of the IN.

True.

It would be like the US Navy sending in Coast Guard cutters to gain intelligence.

Depending on the mission and context, that could potentially be a smart play.
A CG Cutter doesn't necessarily attract the same notice/attention/suspicion that a USN Destroyer would ... for example.

Cue the 007 opening sequence before the movie titles ...

 

[TamsinP]

It's quite possible that the 400 ton Fleet Courier is also used as a scout ship by the IN.

 

[Condottiere]

As a service arm, Scouts would seem to be a literary creation, based on pulp (science) fiction.

 

[mike wightman]

Link to the wiki - lol

I prefer canon, such as:

CruRons of from four to eight ships, while individual ships or pairs of cruisers are
used to form the hard core of scouting or raiding groups

 

[Spinward Flow]

It's quite possible that the 400 ton Fleet Courier is also used as a scout ship by the IN.

If that's the case, then it ought to take a mere 5 weeks to dispatch a squadron of Fleet Couriers for a "sneak, peek, report" cycle to a destination 12 parsecs away (assuming a refueling midpoint at exactly 6 parsecs equidistant). During those 5 weeks, orders putting a squadron of cruisers on standby at the dispatch naval base pending new orders (depending on the Fleet Courier return report). That way, if the Fleet Courier recon verifies the initial report from the PCs, there would be a Cruiser squadron "ready to roll out" and be dispatched with orders to deal with the cultists (and what they've found).

Would certainly tighten up the timing by A LOT and give the cultists very little time to shift circumstances to their advantage.

Good thought.

 

[Kakistocrat]

I generally wouldn’t repair something that uses specifications older than my interstellar state. [… The Imperium] may want to know how an outborder cult got enough resources to even consider repairing these things, and how this mothballed fleet wasn’t red-flagged beforehand.

Agreed. Given the age of the mothballed fleet, it could have dropped off the Imperium’s list of concerns (and administrative awareness) long, long ago — presuming that that fleet was ever on its list of concerns (since those ships are older than the Imperium itself).

It’s hard to gather evidence if the site and all its inhabitants have been fried by meson fire.

Yup — which is why I was wondering about “[frying] the site with meson guns for a few days” being the initial plan if there were no meson shield.

I feel like an isolationist cult wouldn’t be repairing battleships…

Repairing a battleship might be part of a plan (however flawed) to make themselves into a uranopolitical porcupine, to dissuade non-believers from considering staking a claim to their stellar system. Of course, how they can afford to repair a battleship would most likely be a matter of interest to their major power neighbors; if the source of their credits is inimical to the Imperium, then that could lead to a particularly kinetic Imperial response.

[The cultists’ stellar system] is located between the Imperium and other significant interstellar powers, relatively near vital trade links. Probably worthy of intervention.

Depending upon the level of intervention, the significant close neighbors could well be impelled to do their own research into why the Imperium took the extraterritorial action that it did in that system.

 

[Commander Truestar]

@GLΩAMING hasn't revealed the jump capability of the PC's starship ... so in the absence of that detail, let's just default to an assumption of (civilian) J2. Furthermore, we'll be generous and assume that the "12 parsecs from the imperial border" means that there are 6 worlds 2 parsecs apart in a nice convenient line between the Target™ and the naval base the PC's need to file their report at.

The issue with this assumption is that the OP specified they were all warships.
As a result, we have to assume there was a mix of jump capabilities.

Another assumption which is equally valid, is that these are "Not" Imperial or even Imperial-like
Or, limited to Imperial tech.

If they are "thousands of years old"(which I have an issue with), they are "Not" of the Third Imperium.
They "Could" be 1,000 to 1,500 yrs old and be remnant Darrian vessels

Still, they are military so J-2, J-3 and J-4 mix is more likely IMO

 

[Commander Truestar]

The IISS is not the reconnaissance arm of the IN, the IN has its own reconnaissance ships.
The IISS is not the communication arm of the IN, the IN has its own couriers.
The IISS is not in the chain of command of the IN.

It would be like the US Navy sending in Coast Guard cutters to gain intelligence.

OK,
So the first "easily accessible" source to counter you (there are GDW statements that are the same but I need the time to dig them out)

Page 42. Heading "NUMBERED (SUBSECTOR) FLEETS", Book: "Sector Fleet", Mongoose:

"In such times of crisis the Subsector Fleet is reinforced by ships from a variety of sources, most of which come under the
banner of the Colonial Fleet. Lighter assets are augmented with ships from the Scout Service, mercenary units, corporate
forces and the ‘Colonial’ navies of member worlds. The latter also tend to provide a handful of cruisers and even the odd
capital ship but it is a rare planetary navy that deploys anything bigger than a light cruiser."

I know you want the ISS to be entirely separate from the IN, but that is simply not the case.
It would be beyond bizarre for each service to re-invent the wheel.

As for "It would be like the US Navy sending in Coast Guard cutters to gain intelligence"
That happened not only in World War II but is happening TODAY....

And not just for Intel gathering.
Friends of mine were aboard US Coast Guard ships which are NOW in the Persian Gulf region escorting merchant ships through the area while US Navy ships cover the "Active defense" missions.

I am literally familiar with over 50 such missions because my friends are assigned aboard cutters in active service.

 

[mike wightman]

I would take Mongoose canon with a large pinch of salt, especially stuff that should have been better researched in the first place.
The original quote is that it is in times of war that the scout service is conscripted, not just times of crisis.

Then there is the fact the the IISS is a complete service not tied to the navy, with its own command structure separate from the IN.
LBB:6 Scouts details all this.

The Imperial Interstellar Scout Service is a major service within the Imperium.
equal in stature to the Imperial Army and the Imperial Navy

Placed in authority over the several offices is a central command structure (called Headquarters) which provides overall control of the Scout Service. Because Headquarters controls the operations of the entire Scout Service throughout the Imperium, it is concerned primarily with policy and administrative detail, rather than the accomplishment of specific missions, and is rarely more than a distant office providing instructions and directions to the service

Since we are not sticking to CT sources here is what is in GT First In.

During wartime, the ScoutFleet is organized into squadrons under IISS command, supporting the Navy

And interestingly enough:

Individual scouts who are detailed to the military services are assigned to specific army, marine or naval units. They receive temporary rank in their new service in accordance with their duties. For example, a Security Branch officer assigned to Naval Intelligence would be given a temporary naval commission, with all the pay and privileges thereof.
Naturally, scouts are almost never placed in the line of command in the military services.
They usually serve as staff officers or specialists even when they are granted commissioned rank.