A Hidden Pirate Base.....

[DickNervous]

So I am running the Pirates of Drinax campaign and one of the "side missions" that the players can do is related to a pirate and his base...

A century ago, a notorious pirate named Tamby
Dour attacked shipping within four parsecs of Wildemann. The
Imperial Navy intercepted and killed Tamby, but were never able
to find his hidden base........

As you might guess, the reward for the mission is..

The real treasure, though, is Dour’s hidden base – a fully
functional, well-equipped and extremely well hidden Class-B
starport right on the main shipping lane…

So now I have to design this base and figure out how the players can actually run it. I have already did some of the design work but I am going to have to revisit it and scale it up a bit, especially the living quarters section since I only took into account pirate crews and such.

Since a Class B starport is supposed to have refined fuel and full repair facilities I have included a shipyard and fuel refinery. What I don't know is how big either of those should be or how many people it would take to run them? I assume that a lot of the work would be automated, but someone still has to run things and maintain the automation!

Then I also have a warehouse and starport control, both of which are much easier to figure out how to staff and how much space they take up. And of course there would be barracks, mess hall, recreation area, storage, and all the things that people who are running this place would need.

Since it is in/on an asteroid I am thinking that designing it like a very large ship or space station is the route I should take, but just how big would it have to be? My current design has a very large central area hollowed out of the asteroid where up to 10 ships (500dT or less) could dock along with the shipyard, warehouse, and refinery. But I think it's not big enough, which can be fixed by adjusting the scale of my drawing, but I just don't know how big it needs to be.

So any ideas, comments, suggestions, or examples would be greatly appreciated, both on the design and staffing side of things.

Thanks!

 

[rancke]

Since a Class B starport is supposed to have refined fuel and full repair facilities I have included a shipyard and fuel refinery. What I don't know is how big either of those should be or how many people it would take to run them? I assume that a lot of the work would be automated, but someone still has to run things and maintain the automation!

I don't understand why a pirate hideout would need a boatyard (which is the distinguishing facility of class B starports). Repair facilities makes a lot of sense. The ability to build new ships from the keel up does not sound quite feasible, although I could see why a pirate would love to have that capability. But why would he want to be able to build spaceboats?


Hans

 

[Selandia]

Size: It realy need to just just enougn to repair the pirate ship, and may be hide a prize or two.

Staffing: a big issue, unless the whole "base" crew was also on the destroyed ship, there no basic reason the base crew would not go in business under a new boss, possibly the yard master. So some creativity by you, lot of robots, or a well and extensively equipped small workshop manned by the ship's crew when at base (If nearly all of the "large" crew of a corsair are prof spacers and not just goons, B class work may be performed) are required.

How will they man it? humm...what kind of work? honest work may use standard hiring practices, chop shop will be more adventurous hiring

Have fun

Selandia

 

[Selandia]

I don't understand why a pirate hideout would need a boatyard (which is the distinguishing facility of class B starports). Repair facilities makes a lot of sense. The ability to build new ships from the keel up does not sound quite feasible, although I could see why a pirate would love to have that capability. But why would he want to be able to build spaceboats?


Hans

oops simultaneously posting

B class, for pirate: You are right, they do not need to build a ship from the keel up. My take: Chop shop and remodelling prize for resale may verywell bring a maintenance and repair workshop (boatyard) to level B.

have fun

Selandia

 

[kilemall]

I could see fighters and boarding shuttles being a standard way for pirates to get their job done, especially if they work the same system, or are using the build capacity to make very custom boats (say stealthier, or duplicates of innocuous/trusted boats).

The pirate base shouldn't be full-sized repair a dreadnaught capable, at least and maintain it's stealth at the same time, so definitely an upper end on what can be repaired within the bays.

 

[Drakon]

I don't understand why a pirate hideout would need a boatyard (which is the distinguishing facility of class B starports). Repair facilities makes a lot of sense. The ability to build new ships from the keel up does not sound quite feasible, although I could see why a pirate would love to have that capability. But why would he want to be able to build spaceboats?


Hans

There is a high degree of overlap between repair and new construction. Think a minute about all the various repair operations that might come up. Each unique repair operation will require particular facilities and resources. After a certain point, the ability to repair anything ends up being able to build anything.

If you can manufacture enough repair parts, you can build an entire ship.

 

[rancke]

There is a high degree of overlap between repair and new construction. Think a minute about all the various repair operations that might come up. Each unique repair operation will require particular facilities and resources. After a certain point, the ability to repair anything ends up being able to build anything.

If you can manufacture enough repair parts, you can build an entire ship.

By that logic, a really capable repair facility should be a shipyard and make it a class A starport equivalent (it's not going to be any class of starport until a rating authority confers a class on it; a hidden ship facility would technically be a class X starport. Presumably the author meant a place with all the facilities needed to earn a class B classification.)

Anyway, Traveller rules distinguishes between repair facilities, boatyards, and shipyards, and repair facilities are supposed to be able to repair any repairable damage, so you don't really need a boatyard on a pirate base unless you genuinely need to build new spaceboats from scratch.


Hans

 

[Drakon]

Anyway, Traveller rules distinguishes between repair facilities, boatyards, and shipyards, and repair facilities are supposed to be able to repair any repairable damage, so you don't really need a boatyard on a pirate base unless you genuinely need to build new spaceboats from scratch.


Hans

So what would a repair facility not have, to prevent it from building new boats?

Between A and B, is the jump drive. So a Class A could produce a jump drive, but those require something that a class B starport doesn't have. Some key piece of the Jump Drive must require special manufacturing facilities, materials or personel.

Between C and B, C's can do Major Repairs, but not Overhauls. What does an overhaul require that Major Repairs do not?

As it stands, if you can do an overhaul, you can build a boat.

Also, if you are using breach pods to attack shipping, you may consider the pods expendables that need to be replenished.

Also, "need" is not an issue. The issue is desire. Maybe this pirate king wanted to build boats. Maybe one of his minions wanted to. Maybe the Pirate King captured some engineer, took a liking to him, (or her) and got that engineer to cooperate in repairing the main ship by providing whatever facilities the engineer asked for.

This could be the beginning of one of those galactic legends that the Galaxiad re-enacts.

 

[rancke]

So what would a repair facility not have, to prevent it from building new boats?

A local infrastructure manufacturing sub-components.

Between A and B, is the jump drive. So a Class A could produce a jump drive, but those require something that a class B starport doesn't have.

A local infrastructure manufacturing jump drives would be my guess.

Between C and B, C's can do Major Repairs, but not Overhauls. What does an overhaul require that Major Repairs do not?

That's one of the tricky ones. To get a class B starport rating, you need to be able to perform annual maintenance and to build spaceboats. You can get a class C rating without being able to do either. But what rating do you give a starport that can perform annual maintenance but not build spaceboats? My take is that you can have class C starport that can perform annual maintenance, the rules to the contrary notwithstanding. YMMV.

As it stands, if you can do an overhaul, you can build a boat.

As it stands, if you have a class B rating, you can do both. Is that because you can't perform annual maintenance without a boatyard? I doubt it. Just what do you need to be able to perform annual maintenance other than the facilities to repair defects?

Also, "need" is not an issue. The issue is desire. Maybe this pirate king wanted to build boats. Maybe one of his minions wanted to. Maybe the Pirate King captured some engineer, took a liking to him, (or her) and got that engineer to cooperate in repairing the main ship by providing whatever facilities the engineer asked for.

Those facilities would include some rather expensive infrastructure.


Hans

 

[Drakon]

A local infrastructure manufacturing sub-components.

That is necessarily vague. I am trying to see more specifically what that would entail. Is the lack in transport capability? Key ingredients? Human talent? Some unique manufacturing process that cannot be substituted?

That's one of the tricky ones. To get a class B starport rating, you need to be able to perform annual maintenance and to build spaceboats. You can get a class C rating without being able to do either. But what rating do you give a starport that can perform annual maintenance but not build spaceboats? My take is that you can have class C starport that can perform annual maintenance, the rules to the contrary notwithstanding. YMMV.

Maybe we're looking at this crabbed. Perhaps it is not the physical infrastructure or human talent as much as sufficent government oversight capabilities. Granted, facilities and talent would be factors, just not necessarily determining ones.

Some government agency has to oversee most starport operations. If you repair Jump drives, you need those repairs certified. Which requires an Imperial Inspector rated to inspect the Jump drive. You build a boat, you need inspectors rated to certify those boats, or else you can't take them up.

Annual inspections and major repairs would not require as knowledgable nor as senior an inspector.

Those facilities would include some rather expensive infrastructure.

The Pirate King was quite successful, and really really liked the Engineer. Or perhaps whatever key macguffin it is that a Class B starport requires was being transported aboard a ship the Pirate King hit. "See what nice booty I brought you?"

 

[rancke]

That is necessarily vague. I am trying to see more specifically what that would entail. Is the lack in transport capability? Key ingredients? Human talent? Some unique manufacturing process that cannot be substituted?

It's got to be manufacturing capability. If it wasn't, any boatyard would be able to build starships by importing jump drives and installing them in the vessels it built. And any (well, perhaps not any, but surely the big ones) repair facility would be able to build ships by importing components and assembling them.

The thing is, the rules for starport classification are quite crude and also contradictory. (For example,TCS says you can only build ships on worlds with class A starports while HG says governments can build ships on any world with the requisite tech level, regardless of starport class). And the author of "Pirates..." obviously used 'Class B starport' as a shorthand for something that isn't actually an active, functioning class B starport.

To me, a class B starport is one where anyone with enough money can go and order a spaceboat built in the standard number of weeks for the standard cost. A facility where you have to wait a long time to get your boat built or have to pay more than the standard cost (or both) wouldn't rate a B classification despite the existence of a boatyard.

(I've used that distinction to explain a couple of high-population industrial worlds with Class D starports).

So a mothballed boatyard without any manufactures of subcomponents wouldn't be a Class B starport. Even if some writers have used the term in exactly that manner (well, the example I remember is a mothballed Class A starport, but the principle is the same).


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

Remember that in MgT, Class B & C ports are defined differently than other versions of Traveller. In MgT, a Class B port has a shipyard capable of building ships (Jump or non-Jump) up to 5000 dton displacement.


MgT Core Rules p.105:

Definitions
A spacecraft is any interplanetary or interstellar vehicle – anything that can travel through space under its own power. A ship is any vessel of 100 tons or more. A starship is a ship which has Jump drives and can travel on interstellar voyages from star system to star system. A system ship is a ship without Jump drives, confined to a single star system. Small craft are any vessel under 100 tons; all small craft are incapable of Jump and are constructed using their own rules which will be presented in a future supplement. In the meantime, the statistics for common small craft can be found on page 132.

MgT Core Rules p.178:

Facilities are the starport’s repair and construction ability. A shipyard allows for the construction of new vessels. A shipyard capable of building all types of ships can construct small craft (less than 100 tons), spacecraft (100 to 5,000 tons) and capital ships (more than 5,000 tons). Repair facilities allow a damaged ship to be repaired, and have plenty of spare parts for most common systems. Limited repair facilities can only fix Hull hits but not system damage.

STARPORTS

Class	Quality	Facilities
A	Excellent	Shipyard (all) /Repair
B	Good	Shipyard (spacecraft) /Repair
C	Routine	Shipyard (small craft) /Repair
D	Poor	Limited Repair
E	Frontier	None
X	No Starport	None

 

[rancke]

Remember that in MgT, Class B & C ports are defined differently than other versions of Traveller. In MgT, a Class B port has a shipyard capable of building ships (Jump or non-Jump) up to 5000 dton displacement.

So much more unlikely that a pirate would need a shipbuilding facility big enough to qualify a starport for a B rating. Or be able to support the necessary infrastructure in a hidden base.


Hans

 

[DickNervous]

You folks never cease to amaze me with the responses to questions I ask. It's amazing. Though I think things went a bit off-topic of the original question, or at least what I meant it to be, but that's good because it got me thinking.

So much more unlikely that a pirate would need a shipbuilding facility big enough to qualify a starport for a B rating. Or be able to support the necessary infrastructure in a hidden base.


Hans

I agree, a Class B starport as a hidden pirate base does seem to be a bit overkill, but that is what the adventure states, so that is my starting point. In reality I am going to limit what they can do, just not sure where I will draw the line yet.

And as many have mentioned, a pirate does not need the capability to build entire ships (though I am sure they would love it!), but where do you draw the line between repairs/upgrades and building?

Some have suggested that the local infrastructure to produce the required parts and systems (jump drives, etc) would be a factor for differentiating between starport classes or the line for repair vs build. I disagree. There are many systems that have a Class A/B starport but a TL below 9 (which is where you can build Jump-1 drives). Some examples in the Trojan Reach are Torpol (B55A77A-8), Clarke (B899753-8), and Exocet (A574126-8). And if TL8 it "close enough" then look at Arunisiir (B776530-6). Those systems wouldn't have the capability of locally manufacturing Jump Drives and other parts that are required for shipbuilding. So either all that capability is inherent in the starport (which means they are way bigger than I think most of us assume) or the parts are imported from other systems.

But the information I was looking for from the original question isn't whether or not the base should be able to build new ships or stuff like that, but just size and staffing. I have done some research and come up with some ideas based upon some space station designs I have seen for the size, but still no clue on staffing.

For size I am going on the assumption that a landing pad needs approx. 3x the "space" of the dTon of the ship landing there. So to land a 500dTon ship you need about 1500dTon of space, which (with rounding) works out to at least a 50x50x10m space (25,000m³ or about 1,850dTon). Of course actual ship designs may make that difficult, but it is a starting point.

What I am trying to figure out is just how repairs and upgrades are done in Traveller.

1. Does the ship need to be put in a "dry dock" or "hangar"? Or can it be repaired in the landing pad?
2. Is almost all work done by repair drones?
3. How many actuall people are needed to do repairs? Just one to montior the drones?
4. Can upgrades also be done by repair drones? Like installing better weapons, bigger drives, etc?
5. How much maintenance is required for repair drones? Can they fix each other?

And in general, how many people would it take to do basic maintenance for fuel refining, life support, etc? Should I just calculate a displacement for the asteroid and use the guides for engineers on capital ships to get an idea?

Right now I am thinking that they can't bring anything bigger than about 600-700dTons inside the actual base (there will be a few landing pads on the surface for bigger ships). And I am going to make it extremely difficult for them to build anything with a jump drive or bigger than about 100 tons or so at the facility. For that they will want to go to Theev....

Thanks and I hope to see some of you at TravellerCon next week!

 

[Selandia]

some thought

a remodeling and Chop shop is usually not AAA certified, (yet I suspect are rigourous in their work). So there is no formal "class B" (or any other) certification for pirate yards. They just do work that would be approved by the surveyor of the insurance co if they had beed made in a certified class -whatever - shipyard/workshop.

Fitting the complexity of the universe in 5 boxes labelled A to E require some willingness to contain your creativity within thin rubber walls. My uncle Michael and his cousin Yvon could take appart repair and put back up the Cobra of Michael when he was amateur racing. That meant that the village of St-Sulpice had a "car assembly facility". There would be two type of fools: those that thought that St-Sulpice was Detroit and those that thought that Michael and Yvon could not built a Cobra if you gave them the parts because they were not working in Detroit. So yes, the "Pirate from St-Sulpice" can build their boarding boat, a B type of work, and maintain and repair the street legal rides of Michael and Yvon.

Parts do not have to be locally produced. Paya/Aramis/spin 2509 A 655241-9 with Navy, base is hardly capable to produce locally every components they will use in fleet repairs or starship building. For our pirates, parts can be canibalized from prize or bought in neighbooring systems from a "friend" that ask no question when seeing a Purchase Order from "Black Beard Scrap & Part", as BBSP is more often a suppliers than a buyer.

So if for an adventuring campaign you wish to provide as first stage reward a yard that would provide your PC with a strong mesure of logistical autonomy, I see no reason why you cannot have them earn a hiden workshop capable to perform work described as usually done in B class starport.

Have fun

Selandia

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

their are rules for shipyards in MGT in supplement 14: space stations.

to paraphrase:

each Dton of ship needs about 2 Dton of yard space (so a 100Dton ship needs at least a 200Dton yard to build it). most of the work is automated, with manning in the region of 1 man per 50 Dtons of yard (for maintenance, drone direction, etc).

they can do pretty much whatever you need doing. repairs, refits, even rebuilds.

it would be a very useful facility for pirates, able to fix up any damage to prizes, and fudge their build enough that they would be able to be sold much easier.

obviously, such a facility would need to be.....extensive. it would work much better as a "legit" yard that happens to do this sort of work on the side.

maybe his "hidden" yard is hidden in plain site? the yard is a perfectly normal, above board yard just off the beaten road, that the pirate had connections to (owned by distant family?). the players discover this link and can use it as blackmail to get the yard to do a little work "on the side".

 

[rancke]

each Dton of ship needs about 2 Dton of yard space (so a 100Dton ship needs at least a 200Dton yard to build it). most of the work is automated, with manning in the region of 1 man per 50 Dtons of yard (for maintenance, drone direction, etc).

What's the cost per T of a yard? And how many people are necessary to produce all the subcomponents, from digging up the ore to the finished components? And how many people do you need to produce the food and perform all the tertiary jobs?


Hans

 

[atpollard]

What's the cost per T of a yard? And how many people are necessary to produce all the subcomponents, from digging up the ore to the finished components? And how many people do you need to produce the food and perform all the tertiary jobs?


Hans

At what TL?

 

[rancke]

At what TL?

Yeah, that too. But since ships cost the same at all tech levels¹, my guess is that shipyards likewise cost the same at all tech levels (all TLs at which they are possible, of course).

¹ If you ignore currency exchange rates. Which Traveller writers seem to do most of the time.​

Hans

 

[kilemall]

Yeah, that too. But since ships cost the same at all tech levels¹, my guess is that shipyards likewise cost the same at all tech levels (all TLs at which they are possible, of course).

¹ If you ignore currency exchange rates. Which Traveller writers seem to do most of the time.​

Hans

Been meaning to post on that point.

Near as I can tell, if you take the Striker mechanism as gospel, an Imperial credit is an Imperial credit, but the cost multiplier is in terms of market value of a TL item or service.

That's a whole thread of calculating purchasing power per capita needs doing.