A Proto-Traveller Conundrum: pre-Mercenary Marines!

[Mithras]

I have a problem of my own making. I want to run a 'prototraveller' game, a game using only Book 1-3 + Supp 4 (how can I resist Supp 4?). I've done brilliantly with chargen, and with creating my Book 2 ships. Up till now.

I'm about to build an assault cruiser for my imperial fleet, but I'm struggling with my Imperial Marines! The wonderful article in JTAS 12 explains the equipment of a Marine Task Force, which is useful for designing my assault ship. But of course theres lots of meson guns, fusion guns, and Striker vehicles in there ....

I suppose its difficult to imagine Imperial Marines prior to Book 4. But if so, what would they look like? Battle Dress exists, I guess the top range weapon is the laser rifle, right? I can live with that. I can sketch out Grav APCs OK, and give them lasers too, like the ATV in Mission on Mithril.

Not sure about the regiment's artillery needs, though. Perhaps sketch out a missile sled that uses drone missiles lifted from Book 4, but of courses technology already mentioned in Book 2 (50kg missiles).

Don't ask my why I've given myself these self-imposed restrictions. Let's just say I like the challenge? The thrill? It tickles me ..!

 

[aramis]

The squad likely uses the Rifle.
The squad automatic rifleman uses the autorifle.
The typical marine probably uses combat armor, not BD. Same protection, more excuses for the high strength.

Battle Dress is for elites.
Laser Rifles are for shipboard action, more than dirtside.

One side note: you'll need Bk 4 & 5 anyway - several skills in Supp 4 say "discussed in book 4" and several more say "discussed in book 5."

 

[robject]

Book 4 has the PGMP and FGMP, i.e. the Battledress marine's favorite companion.
And the gauss gun.
And launchers.

Lots of fun stuff there.

Of course, you're not using Book 4, I see. My apologies. I'll just be moving along...

 

[far-trader]

...I guess the top range weapon is the laser rifle, right?

Nope, check Book 1 description of Gun Combat again. All it means is your Marines won't have free zero level competence in the heavy weapons (PGMP, FGMP, Gauss, etc.) and be at -5 (iirc) when firing them... UNLESS they take a level of skill in the specific weapons. et voila. Imperial Marines with heavy weapons.

Also check the VaccSuit skill of Book 1 vs BattleDress and Zero-G skills in Book 4... then continue to happily ignore the Book 4 skills

 

[mike wightman]

I'd say that your BD equipped marines would be using the autorifle as their main weapon - the str enhancement of BD allowing for a shed load of ammo to be carried.

They would augment this by also carrying a laser carbine or rifle - possibly built into the BD for a more sci-fi feel to it.

 

[McPerth]

I'd say that your BD equipped marines would be using the autorifle as their main weapon - the str enhancement of BD allowing for a shed load of ammo to be carried.

They would augment this by also carrying a laser carbine or rifle - possibly built into the BD for a more sci-fi feel to it.

Even if playing without Bk 4-5-6, I think you should try to include some of its skills (as Zero-G) to better play your Marines in boarding actions.

I assume all your last threads are related, and so the campaign you're planning in in the Rule of Man. If so, as maximum TL is 12 (IIRC canon), you needn't to care about BD, most energy weapons or so (you can even rule that is 'early' TL12 and PGMP 12 and Gauss rifle don't exist, so you really wash out some conflict).

If my assumption is true, you can change the BD skill for Zero G, so allowing this (IMHO) vital skill if you're planning to use space marines to exist without changing the game to much.

About my assumptions about equipment, I'd say most ground troops are in cloth/vacc suit and equiped with either auto rifles or rifles, some elite units armed with laser rifles. Marines would mostly be equiped with vacc suit and lasers, to better cope with low/zero G conditions, and the combat armor will be reserved for selected elite units and comandos. Also units expected to act independently, mostly behind enemy lines (and so, with resupply problems) will be equiped with lasers, as they don't need ammo as long they have a power source. Examples of those units would be raiders (both, dirtside and commerce raiders), comandos (already mentioned), jump/assault troops, etc.

Handguns and SMG will be (IMHO again), the main shipboard security weapons, as they're good in close spaces and may have low penetration ammo to avoid damaging ship's components (like the rounds used for airplane security people)

As for heavy weapons, you can (IMHO again) upgrade some lasers to support weapons (not unlike the heavy blaster seen in Empire Strikes Back), upgrade the auto rifle to make for MGs or make house rules for grenades/explosives to allow for heavier artillery (and light mortars/grenade launchers).

Hope that helps.

 

[BillDowns]

I have no opinion about using the chargen from LBB4-6, but I would suggest at least using selected equipment from them.

Saves you from having to recreate that gear

 

[Selandia]

Question:

are your marine the equiv of a modern elite landing force with an occasional role in shipboard security or are they more like the shipboard infantry of the age of sail?

In the first case, IMHO they are soldiers with vacc suit 0 as automatic skill and all the best (including all the fancy material from any supplement given the right TL) equipment for when they hit the beach. In fact they are more like drop troops than anything else.

In the second case, IMHO they are hardly more than soldiers with an automatic skill vacc suit 1 (understood as giving a Z-G combat skill 0) and weapons specialized for boarding action. They should have the opportunity to gain Gunnery and additionnal vacc suit skill. Of course you could reverse the process and see them as armsmen, navy type trading shipboard operation skills for combat skills.

Selandia

 

[RandyB]

Question:

are your marine the equiv of a modern elite landing force with an occasional role in shipboard security or are they more like the shipboard infantry of the age of sail?

In the first case, IMHO they are soldiers with vacc suit 0 as automatic skill and all the best (including all the fancy material from any supplement given the right TL) equipment for when they hit the beach. In fact they are more like drop troops than anything else.

In the second case, IMHO they are hardly more than soldiers with an automatic skill vacc suit 1 (understood as giving a Z-G combat skill 0) and weapons specialized for boarding action. They should have the opportunity to gain Gunnery and additionnal vacc suit skill. Of course you could reverse the process and see them as armsmen, navy type trading shipboard operation skills for combat skills.

Selandia

IMTU, the former are Marines and the latter are Naval Infantry/Naval Regiment (borrowing the second title from Grand Fleet).

 

[Mithras]

McPerth is correct, my protoTraveller threads are related. I see from these very helpful posts that the situation isn't impossible. Looking at the power of the laser, it must play a part, but is huge weight, 10kg, it looks like a candidate for Battle Dress. Or as a nonBD support weapon.

Some good ideas, especially concerning autorifles.

The Ramshackle Empire setting was something to consider as a suitable setting for a 'retro' Traveller game, but since I need type Z drives (TL 15), I may forget it, or just fudge the TL and assume that it reached TL 15 prior to the Long Night. Lots of options and ideas.

 

[Icosahedron]

Well, on the last page of LBB3 (1st ed) it says:
"Traveller is necessarily a framework...Virtually anything mentioned in a story or article can be transferred to the Traveller environment..."
That gives you carte blanche to import weaponry from elsewhere, including other Traveller sources.

Another way to look at it is that LBB1 seems to describe only small-arms. You KNOW that heavy machineguns and rocket launchers must exist, even though they're not mentioned in the rules, therefore by extension other high-power weapons may also exist - laser weapons bridging the gap between the Laser Rifle of LBB1 and the Turret Weapons of LBB2, for example.

Let's face it, that's why LBB4 was written; not to alter the Traveller universe, but merely to save the Referee some work. I'd say the material of LBB4 exists in the universe of LBB1, it just isn't described.
YMMV.

 

[McPerth]

I have no opinion about using the chargen from LBB4-6, but I would suggest at least using selected equipment from them.

Saves you from having to recreate that gear

I may agree with that, but I'm afraid that's not what Paul is asking for.

 

[Jame]

I'd say alter the skill list a bit so that Marines get Vacsuit skill and have a higher likelihood of getting Gun Combat and tech skills.

I have no opinion about using the chargen from LBB4-6, but I would suggest at least using selected equipment from them.

Saves you from having to recreate that gear

I endorse this suggestion with whole heart.



Of course, I absolutely LOVE the Gauss Rifle.

 

[Mithras]

Do Marines NOT GET vacc suit skill???? I'm going to check.

I'm certainly up for using some of the kit from Book 4, but very hestitant to import fusion guns, meson cannons, pgmps etc. More like grenades, tac missiles, MRLs and chameleon suits! In Book 1 it states that the laser is "The standard high energy weapon," so I think the mindset of Books 1-3 is that this weapon is the next gen, the high tech standard, and of course Book 3 shows no more innovations after the laser rifle.

Of course using the old fashioned slug throwers of Book 1 needs a fresh approach, no-one can imagine imperial marines storming a zhodani stronghold with M14s. At TL 10+ I'm going to have to think of what these guns might look like. The illustrations in The Traveller Book provide the unnerving imagery of 1950s-1970s guns used 5,000 years in the future. No!

The TL 8 carbine, for example, doesn't look like the old M1 Garand any more, but the FN P90, with no real rule change. The rifle and auto rifle may use the same stats, but may well be more 'exotic', perhaps using binary propellants, bullpup configurations or flechette bullets. I'm using much simpler combat rules than those presented, so these cosmetic changes won't require Book 4 for the 'futurification!'

I'd say alter the skill list a bit so that Marines get Vacsuit skill and have a higher likelihood of getting Gun Combat and tech skills.
I endorse this suggestion with whole heart.
Of course, I absolutely LOVE the Gauss Rifle.

Heartily agree about the gauss rifle. How do you pronunce that? For us it was 'gorse', but I think technically it should be 'gows'. Prefer the term 'mag gun'!

 

[mike wightman]

Borrow from T2300 - at least the description of the weapons.

An auto rifle doesn't sound very high tech, but when it fires caseless ammunition or electrically detonated binary propellant it's much better.

Play with the stats a bit too - a magazine of caseless or binary ammo could be double the capacity for the same weight.

Combine weapons - an auto rifle with underslung shotgun or laser carbine (remove the weight of the stock from the underslung weapon).

 

[McPerth]

Do Marines NOT GET vacc suit skill???? I'm going to check.

If you play by the book, only Belters get auromatic Vacc Suit.

As a house rule, we've always played that all skills in the service table (even for advanced characters) were learnt at level 0 as basic/advanced training. That was to avoid marines or Navy personnel unable to wear a vacc suit or Army men with no close combat (blade) training, to put some examples. Of course, having JOT at 0 means nothing.

BTW, I was quite surprised when I saw that MGT used the same rule for basic training.

I'm certainly up for using some of the kit from Book 4, but very hestitant to import fusion guns, meson cannons, pgmps etc. More like grenades, tac missiles, MRLs and chameleon suits! In Book 1 it states that the laser is "The standard high energy weapon," so I think the mindset of Books 1-3 is that this weapon is the next gen, the high tech standard, and of course Book 3 shows no more innovations after the laser rifle.

If you want to use some Bk4 equipment, you'd see how to include some skills to use it (heavy weapons, Field Artillery, Forward Observer come to my mind, maybe some others...) without having to fully rewrite the skill tables. You may consider to borrow some cascade skills from MT (or even some whole tables, where most skills are cascades)...

 

[Mithras]

I think the cascade system is a good one. For Marines & Army, I could take 'Blade Cbt' and 'Gun Cbt' as the new cascade skill 'Combat'. It could cascade to Gun Cbt, Blade Cbt (neither need to cascade to individual weapons) Field Artillery and Heavy Weapons. However I'd need some 'heavy weapons' ready in rules form, and might nod toward Bk 4 for those, but without the many ammo variations that clutter up the tables.

Simplicity being my friend, you know, I think Gunnery might stand in for Field Artillery, giving it dual use. In our space travelling games, over many years, no artillery piece has ever featured, ever. But there are plenty of ship's weapons that need firing! If that Army Major knows how to fire big guns for the army, maybe laser cannon on TL 10 laser tanks, why not let him into the turret?

 

[McPerth]

I'd suggest you to add Zero G to the cascade skill (at least for Marines), and maybe for the army Cbt Engineering, if you want to allow mines/field fortifications.

About Artillery, if I have to say the truth, I've never understood the game difference among skill 1 or skill 4, as most direct fire is more a heavy weapons matter, and about indirect fire, FO is the related skill, more than FA.

 

[far-trader]

...Simplicity being my friend, you know, I think Gunnery might stand in for Field Artillery, giving it dual use.

Per Book 3 vehicle mounted weapons if I recall it correctly I think that is the intent. Or I'm recalling an old house rule to that effect.

I'd suggest you to add Zero G to the cascade skill...

Book 1 Vacc Suit skill has that covered. And (again iirc) to the earlier "What? no VaccSuit skill for Marines?" issue:

a) VaccSuit is one of the suggested zero-level skills, I see no issue with allowing any PC or important NPC to have VaccSuit-0

b) Using the char gen as written suggests that not all Marines are Battle Dress (elite) troops or even CATs (Combat Armour Troopers - special forces, but not elite). Just the best of the best are turned into BDTs and CATs. The ones who rolled VaccSuit at least once. The rest are possibly more prosaic support elements or simply fighting Marines.

 

[aramis]

I'd suggest you to add Zero G to the cascade skill (at least for Marines), and maybe for the army Cbt Engineering, if you want to allow mines/field fortifications.

About Artillery, if I have to say the truth, I've never understood the game difference among skill 1 or skill 4, as most direct fire is more a heavy weapons matter, and about indirect fire, FO is the related skill, more than FA.

Fire correction should use the lower of the two (FO's FO, or Gunner's FA Gunnery); uncorrected or self-corrected fire should be pure FA Gunnery.