A question about Firefly/Serenity & Traveller

[far-trader]

Do you really think that Mal would let Jayne go to all the trouble of using a vacc suit for the gun just to humor him?, do you really think that?

Why not? It wasn't a hard shot. All he had to do was break the window. And iirc that took more than one shot and a few were fired. So much for "she needs oxygen to fire" since the first shot broke the helmet (and cracked the window) and all that oxygen was gone. The followup shots (again iirc) broke the window and killed the crew.

Well, yes they do, evidently more than you realize,
Star Trek being the most obvious case, they even have people who work for NASA giving them tech advice,

If you don't "don't credit most of TV or Hollywood with that much layering" why bother with anything, why make new sounds for the guns? why not just use the old firearm sounds, (got to be cheaper)

No, not that kind of layering. That's technical and field of expertise sources. And yes some do hire specialists for that, and then everybody ignores it if it gets in the way of the "cool" factor.

I'm talking character layers. Where Jayne may not be exactly what he first appears to be. Where maybe Wash isn't simply the child like pilot savant he's first made out to be. And so on. But that usually takes time to develop and Firefly didn't have that chance. Right from the start when the executives insisted Josh start with the "car chase" and "shoot em up" episode instead of telling the story in order. The layers may or may not have been there. All we have are hints they may have been.

As for why bother watching anything? Simple escapism most of the time. Hope they may surprise me (because sometimes they do) all the time.

 

[PathfinderAP]

Huh, well if that's so it only proves my point all the more, and gives me a reason to go watch it agin for the 50th+ time!

They should hire someone like me to maintain continuity and realism.

Not much realism in plastic firearms, (they add sound and muzzle flashing later in FX)

Case in point "Alien vs Predator" all off the shelf (modified) plastic BB guns
They rarely use real firearms now, most are plastic or rubber, or a mix of all of the above

 

[sabredog]

Agreed, Firefly had depth - Serenity was a little weak in that they messed up how River was rescued from the Institute (in the original pilot it was explained that Simon paid his fortune to have others do it for him), but other than a few small errors overall it was dang impressive.

The best part about it was the depth of the characters and the 'Verse they lived in. How the guns worked or not was really a minor quibble; the grognardy sort of thing to argue over many beers and pretzels late at night like whether or not the T-34's in Stalingrad were correct for he year or not (which BTW: they were not even correct for WW2...so sayeth this grognard).

When they killed Wash in Serenity I felt like a stake was driven through me, too, I think that was the first time in a looonnng time that I actually yelled at a movie. I really loved those characters.

 

[PathfinderAP]

Why not? It wasn't a hard shot. All he had to do was break the window. And iirc that took more than one shot and a few were fired. So much for "she needs oxygen to fire" since the first shot broke the helmet (and cracked the window) and all that oxygen was gone. The followup shots (again iirc) broke the window and killed the crew.

Dude thats insane, there is no way Mal would play stupid games with Jayne,
moreso in a critical situation,

No, not that kind of layering. That's technical and field of expertise sources. And yes some do hire specialists for that, and then everybody ignores it if it gets in the way of the "cool" factor.

I'm talking character layers. Where Jayne may not be exactly what he first appears to be. Where maybe Wash isn't simply the child like pilot savant he's first made out to be. And so on. But that usually takes time to develop and Firefly didn't have that chance. Right from the start when the executives insisted Josh start with the "car chase" and "shoot em up" episode instead of telling the story in order. The layers may or may not have been there. All we have are hints they may have been.

As for why bother watching anything? Simple escapism most of the time. Hope they may surprise me (because sometimes they do) all the time.

We are talking about why a gun needs a vacc suit in and airless environment
that is a technical issue

 

[far-trader]

...


Does this look like no thought was given?

You're joking right? That is proof of deep thought? Of realism?

I'm not saying the universe could never come up with such a "solar system" but the chances of it are mind boggling remote. I have my suspicions (have had from the start but never bothered to look into it) that it is physically impossible meaning the orbits would never work. Not over the lifetime required for planetary development. Not without some high order (Grandfather's Ancient tech) manipulation going on. No it was a way to "create" a verse with hundreds of worlds without having to mess around with FTL or hyperspace drives. So they broke one set of rules to avoid breaking another. No biggie.

 

[sabredog]

Not much realism in plastic firearms, (they add sound and muzzle flashing later in FX)

Case in point "Alien vs Predator" all off the shelf (modified) plastic BB guns
They rarely use real firearms now, most are plastic or rubber, or a mix of all of the above

Yeah, true...I have real guns though. I named the carbine in my trunk Vera, but after having to explain why so many times I've given up trying. Only one guy at work ever saw Firefly and gets the joke, but we have 6 guys who dress up in stormtrooper armor for the 501st Rgt (Vader's Fist).

So I guess that demographic sampling, limited though it may be shows why the show died off?

 

[far-trader]

Dude thats insane, there is no way Mal would play stupid games with Jayne,
moreso in a critical situation,

...oh? You mean like when he had him locked in the airlock without a suit and threatened to open the outer hatch unless he... I forget now, apologized for some silly thing or another. And I seem to recall a couple other incidents as well.

Again, what makes letting Jayne put the gun in the suit an issue? Presuming it had some kind of head's up sight (how else could he sight it) the helmet lens isn't going to affect the shot at all. So why not. The only downside is you gotta replace the suit helmet lens. And we know how often the suits saw any use.

It's not a stupid game. If Jayne thinks he needs to have Vera in a suit to make the shot, then Jayne needs to have Vera in suit to make the shot. Do you think Mal should have argued with him that it was silly? That Vera was perfectly capable of firing, probably even better in fact, without being inside a suit?

Anyway, sometime I'll pull out the DVDs and look at it again to see how many shots Vera fires without oxygen. Or if I'm misremembering it. Unless someone else has the time before that

 

[far-trader]

So I guess that demographic sampling, limited though it may be shows why the show died off?

Partly. But as much or more so because the networks never gave it a chance. Bouncing it around the schedule. Mixing the story order. Putting it in throwaway time slots where it would take a pounding in the ratings.

 

[sabredog]

...oh? You mean like when he had him locked in the airlock without a suit and threatened to open the outer hatch unless he... I forget now, apologized for some silly thing or another. And I seem to recall a couple other incidents as well.

Again, what makes letting Jayne put the gun in the suit an issue? Presuming it had some kind of head's up sight (how else could he sight it) the helmet lens isn't going to affect the shot at all. So why not. The only downside is you gotta replace the suit helmet lens. And we know how often the suits saw any use.

It's not a stupid game. If Jayne thinks he needs to have Vera in a suit to make the shot, then Jayne needs to have Vera in suit to make the shot. Do you think Mal should have argued with him that it was silly? That Vera was perfectly capable of firing, probably even better in fact, without being inside a suit?

Anyway, sometime I'll pull out the DVDs and look at it again to see how many shots Vera fires without oxygen. Or if I'm misremembering it. Unless someone else has the time before that

Firstly, the hlemet issue: the range and relative motion of the ship from the station might have made proper sighting of the weapon critical - especially since all their lives depended on Jayne getting right the first time.

As for the airlock thing - that was over Jayne turning River n' Simon over to the Feds...and it would've cost Mal and the others their freedom and ship, too. Mal has repeatedly shown and said how much all those things mean to him. And he and Jayne have that whole dominance testing thing dgoing on between them, too, so I wouldn't have doubted that Mal would have blown him out the lock over it.

Vera fires like 4-5 shots in vacuum, but it's a petty issue. My problem was mainly over the whole helmet blocking the sight picture and making it harder to hit the little window on the station. I'd rather have seen Jayne standing in the lock blazing away, or better yet, climbing out of the hatch and standing on top of Serenity to do the firing. More dramatic and more sense.

 

[robject]

I'm talking character layers. Where Jayne may not be exactly what he first appears to be.

The layers may or may not have been there. All we have are hints they may have been.

e.g. He and Mal were chatting with Badger in "Shindig", and Jayne correctly used the word "pretentious" in an appropriate context. Mal paused and glanced at Jayne. A subtle clue that Jayne's not a complete stereotype.

e.g. Inara takes out a syringe during the pilot episode, in anticipation of potential capture by Reavers. Why does she have that syringe in the first place? Couple that with her later thought-comment "I don't want to die at all". And the question everyone asks: "what's a registered Companion doing out here?" Her explanation is adequate, barely.

e.g. Book's explanation for travelling is likewise adequate, barely... until we learn that he has knowledge, skill, and credentials that no ordinary shepherd would have.

 

[aramis]

Every lead character in Firefly is enigmatic...

Kaylee even... small time floozy with a nack for engineering and big dreams. Where did she learn what she knows? What's her backstory? Of all the mains, she's the only one we don't see any backstory development on, just more questions which can be answered by Backstory development.

And Zoe... We know she served in Serenity Valley. With Mal. She found Wash during her and Mal's pre serenity adventures.

 

[cajon5]

see how often they have to keep racking their semi-autos or shotguns even after they already did 2 seconds ago

I used to joke that in the future, firearm advertisements would have slogans like "now with new and improved dramatically appropriate racking sound!"

:rofl:

 

[cajon5]

I mean come on, is the state of education so poor now that simple physics is beyond the ken of the average person?

Alas, yes it is.

 

[sabredog]

I used to joke that in the future, firearm advertisements would have slogans like "now with new and improved dramatically appropriate racking sound!"

:rofl:

Even better - in the future all the lasers will have that sound so the target knows they have it pointed at them because a "click..bzzzzzz" just doesn't have the right sound of authority.

 

[sabredog]

Every lead character in Firefly is enigmatic...

Kaylee even... small time floozy with a nack for engineering and big dreams. Where did she learn what she knows? What's her backstory? Of all the mains, she's the only one we don't see any backstory development on, just more questions which can be answered by Backstory development.

And Zoe... We know she served in Serenity Valley. With Mal. She found Wash during her and Mal's pre serenity adventures.

Zoe met Wash when Mal hired him to pilot Serenity.

Kaylee's an odd one out, but they do say she just has a "rare gift" for just knowing what to do with machines. Almost psychic or something. But I think mainly she's there to help soften some of the more adult characters (like Mal, who treats her like a little sister, and her relationship with Inara allows the writers to help open Inara's character up a little more), and maybe this character was a casualty of the early cancellation like Book was. We just never had a chance to see all there was of them.

Which, as I have read, was a large part of the reason for the cancellation. Like the reordering of the episodes the attention-span deficient idiots at the network felt the show was moving too slowly and took too much time to develop the characters and that that was the reason for the low ratings - so they blamed steady, careful character development and story for their failure to support a show from a proven writer.

Wow, how often has that not been the case? Star Trek, anyone?

 

[cajon5]

Why not? It wasn't a hard shot. All he had to do was break the window. And iirc that took more than one shot and a few were fired.

You may want to rewatch that epidsode and pay attention to the dialogue before they enter the airlock. In order to disable the net, Jayne had to hit one of the "breakers" I think they called it(one of the points that the electrical arcs were coming from); breaking the window would only kill the crew of the gizmo, not disable the net.

So his first shot was to take out the breaker, and hence the net. The subsequent shots were to shatter the window and kill the bad guys. 'Cause hey, it's a Western in space, right?

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

If you are calling Inara a "whore", you clearly have not been paying attention to the show.

She was a 'Companion' -- a paid professional -- not some common, streetwise, holler-for-a-dollar (or whatever else you can get for a buck) prostitute.

 

[sabredog]

You may want to rewatch that epidsode and pay attention to the dialogue before they enter the airlock. In order to disable the net, Jayne had to hit one of the "breakers" I think they called it(one of the points that the electrical arcs were coming from); breaking the window would only kill the crew of the gizmo, not disable the net.

So his first shot was to take out the breaker, and hence the net. The subsequent shots were to shatter the window and kill the bad guys. 'Cause hey, it's a Western in space, right?

Yup, he had to hit a junction...then he emptied the gun into the window...here is the script as available on Fireflywiki:

http://www.fireflywiki.org/105.html

 

[far-trader]

You may want to rewatch that epidsode and pay attention to the dialogue before they enter the airlock. In order to disable the net, Jayne had to hit one of the "breakers" I think they called it(one of the points that the electrical arcs were coming from); breaking the window would only kill the crew of the gizmo, not disable the net.

So his first shot was to take out the breaker, and hence the net. The subsequent shots were to shatter the window and kill the bad guys. 'Cause hey, it's a Western in space, right?

Ah, that's right, I recall it now that you mention it. Still...

Jayne: "Vera needs oxygen to shoot" so in the space suit she goes...

BLAM! The shot goes through the helmet, the space suit deflates, the shot takes out the junction, and Vera no longer has oxygen to shoot...

BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!! Shots fired at the window spider web it, blow it out, eat vacuum dogs!

Err, what was that about Vera needing oxygen to shoot Jayne? :smirk:

I probably could have let the "needs oxygen" slide for some reason that is not apparent and special to Vera, if only he hadn't kept firing after.

 

[rancke]

Even better - in the future all the lasers will have that sound so the target knows they have it pointed at them because a "click..bzzzzzz" just doesn't have the right sound of authority.

In Robert Sheckley's "The Gun without a Bang" the protagonist is field testing an amazingly deadly beam weapon with no flash and no bang. It proves useless as a deterrent, because the ferocious animals that attack him don't connect the disintegration of their fellows with the prospective meal they're attacking.


Hans