A Wonky Question about Subsidized Traders

[creativehum]

Subsidized ships get mail contracts (which are great! they earn 5x normal cargo revenue).

Question: Is revenue from the mail contract also split with the government on the 50% payment of revenue?

This strikes me as kind of strange, since the government is paying the ship Cr25,000... and then immediately taking back half of it.

This question can be looked at two ways:

1. The "in-fiction" logic of the contract.
2. What the rules were supposed to be to produce a certain effect.

Number 1 is interesting. Number 2 is the one I care more about.

 

[McPerth]

This question can be looked at two ways:

1. The "in-fiction" logic of the contract.
2. What the rules were supposed to be to produce a certain effect.

Number 1 is interesting. Number 2 is the one I care more about.

I guess yes, the subsidizing government (that needs not to be the same one that gives the mail contract) would keep half of the earnings, as for everything else.

About the "in-fiction" logic: the subsidizing government is paying hefy to keep the starlines open, and they still pay for special loads it has to send itself (mail, people as passengers, etc). There's logic in that, as they pay anyway for what they are already paying, they also keep their standard share (and after all, the ship's crew still receives 5X what they will if carrying cargo other than mail, just that the base price is halved).

About what i guess rules intended: the subsized ships are a way for the characters to have a ship with less investment money, at some price:

• loss of freedom of action (as the ship has to cover a fixed ruoute for a percentage of time)
• loss of revenue: so that they won't become rich too son (and here is where the specific question enters)
• being subjet to call (so, allowing the referee to forcé them into a specific adventure)

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Yes, the subsidising agency takes half of all revenue.

"The Government" isn't a featureless monolith, it consists of many different agencies and budgets. It might be the planetary Department of Trade that subsidises your ship, but the subsector Post Office that pays for the mail delivery.

 

[creativehum]

Yes, the subsidising agency takes half of all revenue.

"The Government" isn't a featureless monolith, it consists of many different agencies and budgets. It might be the planetary Department of Trade that subsidises your ship, but the subsector Post Office that pays for the mail delivery.

Absolutely. The in-fiction arguments can be made eighteen ways from Sunday.

I wanted to make sure I had the mechanical intent of the rules down correctly. Running the numbers on my new spreadsheets taught me quickly every credit is going to count... so I thought I'd check with Team-COTI to make sure I was reading it right.

 

[Kakistocrat]

Subsidized ships get mail contracts (which are great! they earn 5x normal cargo revenue).

Question: Is revenue from the mail contract also split with the government on the 50% payment of revenue?

This strikes me as kind of strange, since the government is paying the ship Cr25,000... and then immediately taking back half of it.

Since (at least the 1977 version of Book 2) states that the government is “taking 50% of the gross receipts of the ship while in service”, the answer to your question seems to be “Yes”.

It’s not really that strange — perhaps it reflects a division of accounting areas within the government, e.g. the mail contract pay comes out of the budget of one department, and the 50% of gross receipts contributes to the budget of a different department.

This question can be looked at two ways:

1. The "in-fiction" logic of the contract.
2. What the rules were supposed to be to produce a certain effect.

Number 1 is interesting. Number 2 is the one I care more about.

Only Marc can answer Number 2.

 

[Madmax]

Speaking of Subsidized Merchants

The day to day finances of a Subsidized Merchant are well explained in the CT adventure "The Traveller Adventure" in the "The March Harrier" chapter.
However I have not been able to find the answer to one basic question about the finances of Subsidized Merchants.
Who Owns It?
Does the agency that is providing the subsidy own the merchant ship, and is thus allowing the characters to operate it in what amounts to a lease agreement, or do the operators own it (with a mortgage) and the subsidizing agency is making the payments on the mortgage?
If the agency owns it, can they just end their agreement with the characters at any time and reposes it?
If the operators own it, at what point will it be paid off and therefor end the subsidy arrangement?
I have not been able to find one word about how this aspect works in any of the Traveller materials I have seen, in CT or any other version.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Based on:

When a subsidized merchant is ordered, the character himself must make the 20% down payment, with the government assuming responsibility for the pay- ments upon delivery, and taking 50% of the gross receipts of the ship while in service.

The subsidising agency replaces the bank and mortgage. The operator pays the down payment, so own the ship.

Presumably the subsidy end after, say, 40 years, and the operator owns the ship free and clear.

 

[Grav_Moped]

My guess is that the mortgage is in the character's name but with the subsidizer as a co-signer, and it's a standard 40-year loan.

The PCs might be able to buy out the contract at some point if they have the money to do so. In that event, the subsidizer will just have another ship built to replace it, and subsidize it instead.

The government might have to pay the players to terminate the contract early if circumstances change and the service is no longer required.

 

[Timerover51]

The day to day finances of a Subsidized Merchant are well explained in the CT adventure "The Traveller Adventure" in the "The March Harrier" chapter.
However I have not been able to find the answer to one basic question about the finances of Subsidized Merchants.
Who Owns It?
Does the agency that is providing the subsidy own the merchant ship, and is thus allowing the characters to operate it in what amounts to a lease agreement, or do the operators own it (with a mortgage) and the subsidizing agency is making the payments on the mortgage?
If the agency owns it, can they just end their agreement with the characters at any time and reposes it?
If the operators own it, at what point will it be paid off and therefor end the subsidy arrangement?
I have not been able to find one word about how this aspect works in any of the Traveller materials I have seen, in CT or any other version.

Here is what LBB2-Starships, 1981 edition says about Subsidized Merchants.

When a subsidized merchant is ordered, the character himself must
make the 20% down payment, with the government assuming responsibility for the
payments upon delivery, and taking 50% of the gross receipts of the ship while in
service. The character is responsible for all expenses and costs of operation.

Subsidized merchants are also subject to mobilization (and use as auxiliaries) in
the event of emergency or hostilities. At the end of 40 years, the vessel is completelypaid off, and full title passes to the character, but the vessel remains subjectto mobilization in case of government need.

As I see it, this means that the subsidizing government gets 50% of what the ship is paid in cargo and passenger fees. If the crew elects to engage in speculative trading, purchases the cargo, and pays the shipping fees, the subsidizing agency only has claim to the shipping fees, not any profits from the speculative trading, as the goods are property of the operators, who have paid the cost of shipment. Every time the ship operators are able to make an independent monthly payment on the ship, it reduces the time to ownership by 1 month. If the route the ship is on develops into a highly lucrative one for speculative trading for some reason, the crew may be able to purchase the ship for themselves much earlier than the 40 years. In my Out Rim sector, using the same rule for Subsidized Merchants, I have one planet owning two of them, one for use on the main world of the subsector to the owning planet, and one engaged in what amounts to speculative trade throughout the 4 adjoining subsectors. In this case, the ship is buying the cargo, but any profits above the standard monthly payment received by the planetary government are credited to the ship's account and reduce the time to ownership by the master or the company which is operating the ship.

 

[mike wightman]

It may be worth a look at the final rewards from The Traveller Adventure:

Rewards: Oberlindes will be more than generous in his
final meeting with the adventurers. Until now, March Harrier
has been tied down to a subsidy payment and the
responsibilities that go with it. Now Oberlindes changes that.
At the conclusion of the Zilan wine deal he purchased the
ship's subsidy contract from its previous owners; now he
tears up this contract and sets March Harrier and the crew
free of all obligations. The unending battle to cover expenses
and turn a profit goes on, but is no longer complicated by
the need to pay half of the ship's income to a third party
every month. March Harrier is free now to ply the space
lanes as her crew wishes.

 

[BRover]

Also, the government taking 50% of all (subsidized) ship income is why, when speculating, the crew will most often list the invested cargo as personal property, and pay the standard freight charge to the ship. That way the government only gets Cr500 per ton-jump, not half of the speculative profit.

 

[Grav_Moped]

It may be worth a look at the final rewards from The Traveller Adventure:

SPOILER ALERT, DUDE!!!

... um, yeah, it's what, almost 40 years old now? Nevermind.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Ok, I'm pathetically old now.

If I'd run a merchant ship back when I was playing Traveller in my teens, it'd be paid off in elapsed real time by now.

*sigh*

 

[BRover]

Ok, I'm pathetically old now.

If I'd run a merchant ship back when I was playing Traveller in my teens, it'd be paid off in elapsed real time by now.

*sigh*

I hear you. I'm there too.

But I refuse to admit it. We upgraded to a new ship somewhere in there and reset the clock, didn't we?

 

[Grav_Moped]

Oh yeah.

 

[Gray Lensman]

Naw, got a Scout mustering out, dumped the air-raft for more cargo space and it only took me 40 years to make enough dough to put a down payment on a Subsidized Merchant .... now it's ALMOST paid off :rofl::rofl::rofl::coffeegulp:

 

[Condottiere]

If you really wanted to get rich, time travel.

Put your money into investments with guaranteed five percent compounded returns, and either low berth yourself with the timer set say forty years later, or take your spaceship on a near light speed slingshot tour.

 

[kilemall]

To take a stab at question 2, I'd say the subsidized merchant is less a free to run amuck Firefly thing, and more a build up your equity for a subsidized shipping line. Roll over profits into the 20% down for the next ship, and before you know it you have a whole fleet.


The big speculation bucks means you can score enough to start paying off ships, or the next you'll actually adventure in could be paid off and tricked out. Get factors on worlds to support speculation where they are on the lookout to buy optimal cargos while the fleet has not called yet and load em up to cash in.


Lack of mortgage payment means a LOT more money available to get that armament for mail contracts and speculate. Can easily take game years off of getting to those Mcr20 level sort of deals.



Another campaign thought with the above in mind- you could have players be competing ship captains on the make to get their own ship equity and/or be commodore of the growing subsidy fleet.



Could also be another way for players to get ships on the cheap, buy out a current arrangement/contract for a subsidy owner to monetize/get out of the business. Recoup at least their 20% down on the ship plus some profit, but of course the ship is x years older.

 

[Timerover51]

Ok, I'm pathetically old now.

If I'd run a merchant ship back when I was playing Traveller in my teens, it'd be paid off in elapsed real time by now.

*sigh*

I am in the same situation. Against that, consider the alternate to living until now.

 

[Grav_Moped]

I am in the same situation. Against that, consider the alternate to living until now.

Spending a year dead for tax reasons?