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Starships Comparative Potential Mercantile Revenue

Don't forget standard design discount, you can make a LBB2 3000 tonner barely profitable at J-2.
Size W drive, still TL-15. And if you've got TL-15, you've got Size Z drives. Less cargo space goes to waste though (unless there's another, referee-fiat or house-rule system that generates more cargo).

If we just count costs, J-3 or J-4 is the cheapest way to move cargo long distances.
If you're counting costs per ton payload, 2J2 is cheaper than 1J4. 2J3 is cheaper than 1J6 though. Increasing Jump cadence to 1/9 days (through-passage) rather than 1/14 days (default cadence for RPG purposes) may change that.

Edit to add caveat: assumes refueling available at all jump endpoints. Detours for fuel availability can change this adversely.
 
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If you're counting costs per ton payload, 2J2 is cheaper than 1J4. 2J3 is cheaper than 1J6 though.
Cheaper for WHO ... exactly?
The starship operator?
The customer who needs the goods delivered?

And yes, while all else is "equal" in a J2+2 vs J4 in terms of being able to reach a destination, the SPEED at which that destination can be reached is rather dramatically different. The slower tempo of operations in a J2+2 vs J4 means that you aren't cycling your manifests as quickly. In a "there and back again" sense of running J2+2 between two planets (say, Karin/Five Sisters and Wonstar/Five Sisters, just to give an example) ... if your midpoint is in deep space, you're basically doing:
  1. Jump 2 week (to deep space)
  2. Jump 2 week
  3. Buy/sell planetside week
  4. Jump 2 week (to deep space)
  5. Jump 2 week
  6. Buy/sell planetside week
The contrast to this for a J4 clipper would be:
  1. J4 week
  2. Buy/sell planetside week
  3. J4 week
  4. Buy/sell planetside week
Over the course of a calendar year (52 weeks, minus 2 weeks for annual overhauls), that would mean that the J2+2 cycle would be making no more than 16 deliveries per year in 48 weeks ... while the J4 cycle can make 24 deliveries per year in 48 weeks. That slower delivery tempo has all kinds of knock on effects for breaking even on overhead (crew salaries, life support costs, mortgage payments, fuel/drop tank rental expenses, etc.)

In other words, the J4 clipper can make +50% more deliveries for revenue than the J2+2 ship can over the same 4 parsec distance just cycling between the two mainworlds all year. That's +50% more opportunities for speculative cargo to make windfall profits on, relative to the "cheaper" J2+2 option.

Sure, in aggregate, a J2+2 Far Trader with a 60 ton cargo hold will tend to deliver in aggregate more total potential tonnage in 16 deliveries (16*60=960 tons per year) than a J4 clipper with a 30 ton cargo hold (24*30=720 tons per year) on the same route, but that's a difference of only 240 tons per year advantage to the J2+2 Far Trader ... and a lot of that extra capacity for deliveries is going to be eaten up by overhead (crew salaries, life support costs, mortgage payments, fuel/drop tank rental expenses) so the Far Trader needs to "work harder" just to keep up due to the slower tempo of deliveries.

An extra 240 tons per year is only Cr240,000 credits extra revenue IF you're consistently running full manifests every time (which at 60 tons capacity probably won't be a problem). Note that Cr240,000 per year amounts to only 60 man-months of life support ... for 48 weeks of life support for a crew of FIVE.

If you install a fuel purification plant onto a J2+2 Far Trader (to help with your fuel expenses!), the "cargo throughput" for a J2+2 business use case drops to 50 tons of cargo deliveries 16 times per year, for a total maximum throughput of only 800 tons per year ... relative to the J4 clipper ship with a 30 ton cargo hold delivering 720 tons in the same span of time. Now you're down to an advantage of only Cr80,000 per year on cargo (only) revenues, which is less than the life support costs for TWO crew members (never mind their salaries!) for 48 weeks (which, for the record, would cost Cr96,000 in life support for 2 crew members over 48 weeks).

Can it be done?
Sure, it can be done ... but the J4 clipper is going to rack up the windfall speculative cargo opportunities faster than the J2+2 Far Trader can (24 chances vs 16 chances per year) and that faster turnaround on speculative cargo opportunities is what is ultimately going to make the J4 clipper more profitable (in the long run) relative to the J2+2 Far Trader ... opportunities to move cargo being relatively equal between the two.

It's a "six of one, half a dozen of the other" sort of tradeoff going on, when you start getting into longer distances for delivering goods on a "regular route" that the ship runs on a predictable schedule without deviating. When windfall profits can be expected to result in MCr gains on the profit margin ... being able to speculate +50% more times per year can really add up to some serious windfalls collected over time (chuck lots of dice!).
 
Cheaper for whom?
The provider (ship-owner), of course.

As a shipper, getting your transportation at or below the cost to provide it is a pretty sweet deal.

J2 with fuel for 2 jumps for 4 parsecs might be more costly than J4 at full range to operate (haven't run those numbers yet, and may not ever get around to it). J2 refueling after each jump is far cheaper than J4, though. J2 on a gas-and-go quick-turn schedule (9 day cadence instead of 14) should be even better.

You're highlighting my point that there shouldn't really be much Cr1k/Td/jump cargo space available for anything beyond J-1, even less for J-2, and almost none beyond that. All high-jn cargo space is merely what's left over in the hold after the ship has as much spec cargo (or critical production input that it must ship at that Jn) as it can obtain.
 
Size W drive, still TL-15. And if you've got TL-15, you've got Size Z drives. Less cargo space goes to waste though (unless there's another, referee-fiat or house-rule system that generates more cargo).
Agreed, Z-drives are always more efficient, but it might be easier to fill a smaller cargo hold consistently.


If you're counting costs per ton payload, 2J2 is cheaper than 1J4. 2J3 is cheaper than 1J6 though. Increasing Jump cadence to 1/9 days (through-passage) rather than 1/14 days (default cadence for RPG purposes) may change that.
But it takes more time, hence more operating cost.

At "standard" ops tempo, 1J4 takes 2 weeks whereas 2J2 takes 3 weeks or even 4 weeks with a refuelling stopover. So, 150%-200% mortgage, salaries, maintenance, etc costs for the same distance covered.

If you just want to move some stuff from Mora to Rhylanor, J-3 or J-4 invokes the least cost for the shipping company. Actual shipping rates are a different matter, but should vaguely reflect that...
 
Let's take the Mora to Rhylanor route as an example.

J-2 takes 7 jumps, let's say 74 days (7 days jump, 3 day stopover, and 7 days at the destination),
J-3 takes 4 jumps, let's say 44 days,
J-4 takes 3 jumps, let's say 34 days. (According to TravellerMap.)
2J2 takes 6 jumps, let's say 58 days.

A example cheap LBB5 box that can jump 5000 Dt cargo costs:
J-2: MCr 2410, cost per day kCr 377, total cost kCr 27 898.
J-3: MCr 4000, cost per day kCr 624, total cost kCr 21 216. Least cost.
J-4: MCr 6925, cost per day kCr 1080, total cost kCr 36 720.
2J2: MCr 3600, cost per day kCr 580, total cost kCr 33 640.
 
As a seller, I would be more concerned as to when the bill gets paid.

For a buyer, it would depend on whether it's a time sensitive issue (besides the cost).

For the shipping company, it would be a case of minimizing expenses.
 
What can Mora offer to Rhylanor in such volumes that Rhylanor can't produce for itself as economically?
Mora is industrial while Rhylanor has no trade code.
While trying to answer this question I noticed two things I have been doing wrong for decades.
"apply a DM of +I on the first digit if the current world's population is 9+, and a DM of -1 if the world's population is 5-"
thus you can not get any 11-16 goods and you have a 1/3 chance of getting 61-66
The other thing I know I have got wrong is the actual tonnage of the 51-56 and 66 result.

For example air/raft lot price is 6 MCr. which is the price of ten - ten of them by tonnage is 40t, there are 1d lots available so when building my speculative trader I would need a cargo hold 40-240t. For ATVs it is much worse, 3 MCr. is 100 ATVs at 10t per ATV 1 lot is 1000t, there are 1-6 lots available so that is 1000t to 6000t cargo hold needed.

Back to my original question it looks like results 42-66 are the goods making this trip, along with 21-24, 26.
 
What can Mora offer to Rhylanor in such volumes that Rhylanor can't produce for itself as economically?
Mora is industrial while Rhylanor has no trade code.
Whatever it is, it's a lot (according to Gurps FT):
1671794762524.png
About 8 million Dt cargo (worth GCr ~80) and 8 million passengers per year.

Perhaps not all that much for a combined population of 18 billion, that's about 0.001 Dt per capita. And it's hardly luxury goods at kCr 10/Dt...
 

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Cheaper for whom?
The provider (ship-owner), of course.
This is where "right sizing for routes" becomes the overriding factor.
Why overbuild capability (which is expensive!) if you aren't going to be utilizing your full capacity all the time?

Or to put it simply ... why use a J4 clipper for a 2 parsec trip? It's just wasteful and inefficient.

But this is where external cargo loading capacity comes into play!



If you have a J4 clipper ship, but your next destination is only 2 parsecs away, then your ship is the "wrong size for where you're going" (in effect) for your next trip. However, if you could add on EXTERNAL cargo loading and "tow it all" through jump space, you could situationally increase as needed the amount of cargo capacity you can transport.

Referring to the Optimized Drive Usage tables once more, a 600 ton hull with an LBB2 Jump-M standard drive yields:
  • J4 at 600 tons (no external loading)
  • J3 at 800 tons (+200 tons external load)
  • J2 at 1200 tons (+600 tons external load)
  • J1 at 2400 tons (+1800 tons external load)
Basic idea is no different from External Demountable Fuel Tanks ... except you're "bolting on" more cargo space, rather than just more fuel tanks.

In other words, a 600 ton J4 clipper ship can tow through jump 1/3/9 Far Traders as external cargo :oops: if necessary by accepting a "range penalty" for the privilege of doing so.

In a LBB5.80 compliant TU, that "external towing capacity" doesn't come for free (it's almost cost free, but not completely cost free).

LBB5.80, p32:
Small Craft: Various non-starships (such as pinnaces, cutters, ship's boats, shuttles, lifeboats, and fighters) are detailed in the section on small craft. Small craft are carried at their own tonnage on ships 1000 tons and under; they require tonnage equal to 130% of their mass within the hull of larger ships. The cost is Cr2,000 per ton.
Big Craft: Ships may also carry non-starships greater than 99 tons, or even other starships, provided proper arrangements are made. Big craft require tonnage equal to 110%of their mass in the ship; the cost is Cr2,000 per ton.
Vehicle Launch Facilities: Starships and non-starships carried on a ship must be provided with some form of launch facilities.
1. Dispersed Structures: Ships which have a type 7 configuration hull carry craft and ships attached to their exterior. They need no additional fittings. All craft carried by a configuration 7 ship may be launched in one turn.
2. Launch Facility: Ordinary launch facilities for a ship allow one craft to be launched per turn per 10,000 tons of hull. These facilities are available at no cost or additional tonnage.

The basic takeaway is ... if you want to build an external towing capacity into a small craft/non-starship/starship, doing so will cost Cr2000 per ton of external towing capacity.

So if you want a 600 ton hull with an LBB2 Jump-M standard drive to have up to 1800 tons of external load capacity, that is going to require:
2000 * 1800 = MCr3.6 additional base construction cost

Now, presumably a craft (small/big/star) cannot retain any kind of streamlining "advantage" while it is encumbered with external loads ... such as an array of Modular Cutter Modules or needing to dock with a 200 ton Free/Far Trader (or a few of them) for interstellar transport ... so I would stipulate that just like with External Demountable Fuel Tanks (LBB A5, p14), any craft towing an external load of any quantity is considered unstreamlined regardless of its native configuration. Only in a "clean, unencumbered by external loads" condition can a craft be considered either streamlined or partially streamlined as per its constructed configuration.



So by that standard ... a stock 200 ton Jump-B drive Far Trader has 61 tons of internal cargo space @ J2 ... and up to +200 tons of external cargo capacity @ J1 ... at an additional expense of MCr0.4 for the modifications to the ship's hull (200*2000=MCr0.4).

A 600 ton Jump-M drive J4 clipper could also have ~60 tons of internal cargo space @ J4 ... and up to +1800 tons of external cargo capacity @ J1 ... at an additional expense of MCr3.6 for the modifications to the ship's hull (1800*2000=MCr3.6).

3x the (primary) hull displacement.
2x the (base) jump range.
9x the external load capacity. 😲



Now, as a Referee ... the way I would rule that the external load capacity for a ship can be filled would be by either:
  1. Major Cargo ONLY (in increments of 10 ton lots in CT) bound for a starship's declared destination.
  2. Charter of the external load capacity available for the starship's declared destination.
For option 1 (major cargo only), the major cargo is assumed to be inside containers which can survive exposure to vacuum and which can be towed through jumpspace close to the hull of the starship (within a jump bubble, basically). This option yields a base Cr1000 per ton (just like regular internal cargo rates) because the starship operator is contracting for the transport directly.

For option 2 (charter), the starship operator basically "sells" the rights to the ship's external load capacity (consistent with the declared destination) to an interested 3rd party ... who then delivers the containers of cargo for transfer to the starship to be loaded externally. With the charter option, it becomes someone else's responsibility to scare up enough cargo to fill up the charter capacity, regardless of how much (major) cargo was (or was not) available to the starship operator to transport. This option yields a base Cr900 per ton per 2 week time block for interstellar cargo deliveries.



Note that if the declared destination is an Amber Zone, there will be no major cargo available to a starship operator for transport ... so option 1 could be "right out" in that case. However, a 3rd party may still have amassed a substantial quantity of cargo that needs to be transported to the Amber Zone world (hence why it was not available to the starship operator in the first place!) and that 3rd party is essentially working as a fixer/broker on behalf of clients wanting to transport that cargo to the starship's declared destination. The 3rd party would be billing Cr1000 per ton to their clients, but only paying Cr900 to the starship operators for chartered transport services. Presumably the 3rd party would have capital investments in the necessary containerization to facilitate such operations ... they just need starships to move the containers.

And it's through charters with 3rd parties (at Cr900 per ton), rather than the starship operator contracting directly with clients for cargo freight transport (at Cr1000 per ton), that it is possible to "get around" certain trade restrictions (such as Amber Zones having no major cargo bound for them).

As for whether such charters are available to a starship's declared destination ... I'm thinking:
  1. Add the world population value of the origin and destination worlds then divide by 2 (round up).
  2. DMs (origin and destination): +1 per type B starport, +2 per type A starport
  3. Roll the threshold or less on 2D6 for there to be a charter available to the starship's declared destination.
So a J1 transit from Rhylanor/Rhylanor to Porozolo/Rhylanor, for example, would involve a population 9 and A (so average is 10) and two type A starports (so +4 DM). Roll 14- on 2D6 for there to be charter available for pickup that will max out the starship's manifest.



And it's at this point, with external loading and charters that a wily starship operator can start self dealing on speculative cargoes. :cool:

A savvy operator would charter their external load capacity (only) to their declared destination ... but keep their internal cargo hold available for speculative cargo and direct contracts (at Cr1000 per ton), with charters for the internal capacity as a last resort if they can't fill their internal cargo hold.



And *THAT* is how you make a profit with a J3+ clipper ship! 💰 💸

 
Yep. Until TL-15, nothing in LBB2 can haul cargo at J-2 and profit at Cr1000/Td/jump -- and the TL-15 ship that does break the Cr1000/Td barrier on J-2, needs to fill 3439Td of payload per trip to do it (the ship's a 5000-tonner).

Which leads to the conclusion that the market supply of freight space at J-2 and above is only what's left over after the rest has been filled with either speculative cargo or essential inputs for products where the end profit justifies carriage at below cost. The latter should be fairly minimal, though, assuming competent corporate management (they'll run their ships as full as possible).
Watch your terms -
Cargo is owned by the ship as a company, the ship's operator, or ship's owner
Freight is owned by others and the ship hired to carry it.

These definitions are standard in the game rules, and make an important distinction.

By using "cargo" you're wrong, as the bk2 trade actually averages more than Cr1000/Td. In general, by using a broker, you're making 10% per level increase in value for 5% cost increase.
So... that means a typical 5% increase in value per level of the broker - long term, this average matters. Note that brokers cannot be arranged for purchases under the RAW...
But the average world is a SP C, and thus broker 2, and thus 10% net increase after paying the broker.
Value# Entries
3001
5001
10003
15001
20001
30001
60001
70001
90001
10,0004
20,0001
30,0002
50,0001
70,0002
100,0002
150,0002
200,0001
250,0001
400,0001
750,0001
1,000,0003
3,000,0001
6,000,0001
7,000,0001
10,000,0001
It works out to about KCr873 as the average price per Td for spec. And the average profit is KCr87...
well, that's over simplified, since 7/12 of all cargoes lack the 6_ series, and 1/12 lack the 1_ series...
and lower value cargoes tend to be larger.
And then there's that about ≈1/4 have higher prices locally, and ≈1/4 lower prices locally, and the same opposite end... so ≈ 3/4×3/4 (=9/16) are advantageous DMs...

The introduction of Broker skill as a PC skill, rather than NPC only, is a minor hiccup... unless you, like I did with one PC I played, get broker 5+...
Trader 1+ allows you to predict local sale die; trader 3+ allows destination sale die; the other die is not known in either case.
But, given brokers on sale only (RAW) that's an average of 10% gain for brokers, (SP >= C, Broker 2 averages +20% sale, but costs 10% sale, so +10% net profit).
And that is before Bribery and Admin DM's. Each level thereof on the selling character is also a roughly 10% improvement in sale price.

The selection factors in competent Bk2 without Bk7 play are that you get to know what the lot and modifiers are before committing; without knowing the purchase die, you only buy when the net DMs are in your favor, and you have a bribery or admin skill advantage for your supercargo/purser.

I should actually model out, but am unable to devote the hardware time to brute force it, the actual distributions... but Bk2 you make your money on advantaged sales at a median of about KCr10 per Td and 14 Td over the long haul.
 
Watch your terms -
Cargo is owned by the ship as a company, the ship's operator, or ship's owner
Freight is owned by others and the ship hired to carry it.
Yes, used interchangeably and incorrectly.

I was loosely referring to the Cr1000/Td/Jump stuff with both terms; in-game, it's "Freight" and that was what I was talking about.
 
Traveller ship construction is comparable to aircraft construction costs of $500k-$1000k per register ton (about 5 per Td). Compare to cruise ship construction costs in the $5k-$10k per register ton.

Meanwhile, Traveller passenger rates are comparable to cruise ship rates. Cruise ships charge around $50/m² per day, while airplanes charge around $100/m² per hour. Airframe construction is 100 times higher, and space utilization is around 50 times greater (not counting cargo for either the ship or the airplane).

Traveller construction costs should be somewhat lower. Starships are made of thick base metal rather than cardboard-thin lightweight alloys. Cost for hull and non-engineering equipment would be about one tenth as much. Cargo rates would run about Cr7500 per Td at "standard" loading of roughly 5 tons, or Cr1600 per ton for greater loads.
A Free Trader, about 1000 register tons, runs Cr32,720,000... so Cr32,720 per ton. Traveller Credits haven't inflated like Dollars over the past 45 years, So the original 10 credits for 3 meals at diners is no longer "2 credits per buck" but now more like Cr1:$3. That puts a free trader about $10,000/ton.

Payload space for that free trader is 82+10+24, 116 dTons or 580 freight tons. At Cr1000/$3000 per dTon, or 200/$600 per freight ton, we're coming in quite a bit more than the cost to ship a LEU (10t) container across the pacific today (about $2000).

As for the cost for hulls, remember, the Cr100,000/ton includes the deck grav control, the power distribution network, airlocks, ducting for life support, machinery to evacuate spaces, etc. - I even include a lifter unit so the ship can fly like an air/raft. I think the most expensive would be the grav control.
 
A Free Trader, about 1000 register tons, runs Cr32,720,000... so Cr32,720 per ton. Traveller Credits haven't inflated like Dollars over the past 45 years, So the original 10 credits for 3 meals at diners is no longer "2 credits per buck" but now more like Cr1:$3. That puts a free trader about $10,000/ton.

Payload space for that free trader is 82+10+24, 116 dTons or 580 freight tons. At Cr1000/$3000 per dTon, or 200/$600 per freight ton, we're coming in quite a bit more than the cost to ship a LEU (10t) container across the pacific today (about $2000).

As for the cost for hulls, remember, the Cr100,000/ton includes the deck grav control, the power distribution network, airlocks, ducting for life support, machinery to evacuate spaces, etc. - I even include a lifter unit so the ship can fly like an air/raft. I think the most expensive would be the grav control.
I always figured lifter and internal grav is a function/cost of m-drive…
 
Seems edition specific.

The next iteration, if I wrote it, I would give more options to engineering and drives, including whether lifters could be made integral to the manoeuvre drive, instead of just vectoring it ninety degrees.
 
Seems edition specific.
It is.
CT1/2 no artificial gravity system in Bk2, don't even recall a specific mention until Sup7, but... deckplanse from '79 on seem to be decks run at aircraft style rather than tower-style.

MT: artificial gravity is separate from drives

TTNE & T4: artificial gravity separate from both inertial compensation and from drives

MGT: I don't recall it being separate in 1E, and haven't looked at 2e in detail.
 
Granular, I think the term is; financially, doesn't make sense in the current edition.

I think it was less of an issue when acceleration was capped at six, but with the afterburner option, with possible acceleration upto twenty five gravities, you start to wonder about things like inertial compensation.
 
That still left open the gate for greater acceleration, if you switched off artificial gravity, belted yourself in a chair, or decided you prefer a goldfish bowl.

And/or, drugs.
 
Watch your terms -
Cargo is owned by the ship as a company, the ship's operator, or ship's owner
Freight is owned by others and the ship hired to carry it.

These definitions are standard in the game rules, and make an important distinction.
Dunno about other versions, but in CT the word "freight" or "freighter" occurs only in description text, not in tables. Cargo is used both for consigned loads carried for another and for goods purchased by the ship/crew/owner.

kCr873/Td does jibe with my rough mental calc of construction cost. While one Td is about 5 register tons, the Cr is about $4 in modern money. That puts it right about the middle of the $500k-$1000k aircraft construction cost.
A Free Trader, about 1000 register tons, runs Cr32,720,000... so Cr32,720 per ton. Traveller Credits haven't inflated like Dollars over the past 45 years, So the original 10 credits for 3 meals at diners is no longer "2 credits per buck" but now more like Cr1:$3. That puts a free trader about $10,000/ton.
CPI in 1977 was 60. Currently is up over 240, so parity in 1977 is $4 now. Also matches well with ¼ hour base labor. But you just did the calc backwards. MCr37.08 LBB2 = kCr37.08/ton × $4/Cr = $148.3k/ton. That is much cheaper than $500k/ton, yet it still has a hard time breaking even without spec trade.
 
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