Jeff M. Hopper
SOC-14 1K
On Grandfather.....
Was Grandfather a moral being? Was Grandfather an ethical being?
Was Grandfather a moral being? Was Grandfather an ethical being?
About Grandfather.....
- Thread starter Jeff M. Hopper
- Start date
Killing his own children in an all-out interstellar war sounds a bit dictator-ish to me.
He seemed to be more rational than ethical in its actions.
See that ethics and morals are quite culture dependent, and for the droyne anything that is in the society behalf would be considered moral and ethical, so, maybe for them Yaskoydray's actions were according to their morals and ethics...
See that ethics and morals are quite culture dependent, and for the droyne anything that is in the society behalf would be considered moral and ethical, so, maybe for them Yaskoydray's actions were according to their morals and ethics...
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Short answer, NO.
There is a LOT of role-playing opportunity in the concept.
In a GAME CONTEXT, this question would be something that drives ideology. Ine Givar, for example, might paint a picture of Grandfather to suit their agenda.
This is a background issue, in other words. And there are actually three faces to this question, only one or two of which the players will probably learn something about:
(1) What he actually did. And, potentially, what he actually said, if any of his words were recorded. But technologically, even a geniune Ancient-era artifact claiming to be the "Voice of Yaskoydray" isn't above suspicion.
I imagine there is a whole class of scholarship in the Imperium and beyond that geeks out over this. That would be a fun profession for a Scholar character.
(2) What others say he is, or what they say he did. "Personal" experiences of course will be as common as a Graham Hancock book, but again, Ancient Devices may record a spin on Yaskoydray. This can potentially stir up lots of various types of personalities -- including player characters.
Typically any of this information will be filtered and subject to the rules of the game of "telephone", where someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that ......... Yaskoyrdray said <BLAH>. Putting words in his mouth.
(3) What he really is. This is different from (1), because even Yaskoydray can be deluded. Probably, only the referee knows this one. Even if the player characters MEET Yaskoydray, each will come away with a unique impression -- and you can bet your bottom dollar that Yaskoydray isn't confiding in anyone else. If nothing else, he appears to be reclusive to the extreme.
In a GAME CONTEXT, this question would be something that drives ideology. Ine Givar, for example, might paint a picture of Grandfather to suit their agenda.
This is a background issue, in other words. And there are actually three faces to this question, only one or two of which the players will probably learn something about:
(1) What he actually did. And, potentially, what he actually said, if any of his words were recorded. But technologically, even a geniune Ancient-era artifact claiming to be the "Voice of Yaskoydray" isn't above suspicion.
I imagine there is a whole class of scholarship in the Imperium and beyond that geeks out over this. That would be a fun profession for a Scholar character.
(2) What others say he is, or what they say he did. "Personal" experiences of course will be as common as a Graham Hancock book, but again, Ancient Devices may record a spin on Yaskoydray. This can potentially stir up lots of various types of personalities -- including player characters.
Typically any of this information will be filtered and subject to the rules of the game of "telephone", where someone said that someone said that someone said that someone said that ......... Yaskoyrdray said <BLAH>. Putting words in his mouth.
(3) What he really is. This is different from (1), because even Yaskoydray can be deluded. Probably, only the referee knows this one. Even if the player characters MEET Yaskoydray, each will come away with a unique impression -- and you can bet your bottom dollar that Yaskoydray isn't confiding in anyone else. If nothing else, he appears to be reclusive to the extreme.
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Can you really trust a dude who give canines the ability to walk and talk like hominids?
.... do Vargr keep dogs as pets?
o:
.... do Vargr keep dogs as pets?
o:It could've been worse--he could have done so for cats.
Oh, wait, they're already superior beings... they're just faking....
Enoff
SOC-13
It could've been worse--he could have done so for cats.
Oh, wait, they're already superior beings... they're just faking....
We are already under their dominion, what better way to hide the fact than to hide in plain sight.
G. Kashkanun Anderson
SOC-13
Grandfather didn't necessarily create the Vargr; the Ancients did. That's a significant difference.
And considering the unpredictability and general nastiness of most primate species, canids might seem to be the more reasonable choice.
I don't see why not. They're related to dogs, but not dogs, so they probably find them as cute and fascinating as humans find chimps or capuchins to be. Monkeys and apes make horrible, if not downright dangerous, pets and yet people still want them around. Can you imagine how popular a truly domesticated breed of primate would be?.... do Vargr keep dogs as pets?
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
It could've been worse--he could have done so for cats.
Oh, wait, they're already superior beings... they're just faking....
That is my explanation for the Aslan in My Traveller Universe. After all, the Lion is a somewhat social feline that would have been more visible to alien visitors on the savanna than Wolves, which tend to be more forest inhabitants. For that matter, African Wild Dogs (Cape Hunting Dogs) would be more visible to alien visitors than Wolves as well, for they also inhabit the savannas of Africa.
As for cats, I have 3 and they definitely know that they are the owners of the house. We just co-habit with them.
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G. Kashkanun Anderson
SOC-13
WHAT?! NO. WAY.
Originally, the Grey Wolf was the world's most widely distributed mammal, living throughout the northern hemisphere north of 15°N latitude in North America and 12°N in India.
-- The IUCN Red List of Threatened SpeciesAnd as to their traditional habitats:
Gray wolves are habitat generalists and populations can thrive in any type of habitat in the Northern Hemisphere (forests, prairies, swamps, mountains, deserts, tundra, and barren lands) from about 20° latitude to the polar ice pack, as long as there is abundant prey and controlled human-caused mortality.
-- Minnesota Department of Natural ResourcesYou only think of wolves as woodland animals because that's where we humans have driven them to. From about 1500 until 1960 any wolf caught out in the open anywhere near human settlement was summarily killed. And even those that weren't were poisoned anyway. Before then, they were EVERYWHERE.
Even today, Grey wolves can be found in the Middle East and the Arabian Peninsula, and one was spotted wandering around Ethiopia just a few years ago. Until humans came along, it could be argued that they were the most prolific and successful apex predator on the planet; and even now they're probably still in second place -- if you include their subspecies cousin, the dog.
In fact, it was probably easier for a wandering alien to find a pack of wolves 300,000 years ago than a clan of humans. Unlike us, who were just loafing around Africa and Eurasia at the time, wolves could be found in every continent except Australia and Antarctica. They were all over the Americas for hundreds of thousands of years before we even knew they existed.
Hah! Loser. My cats let me own the house, as long as I keep the payments up. And I almost never need to ask permission from them for anything in return.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Thousands of years ago cats were worshiped as gods. Your cat has not forgotten this...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
By his code of ethics and morality yes.
Morality and ethics are not laws of nature, they are constructs of intelligent beings.
Easterner9504
SOC-13
TV Tropes classifies him as an Eldritch Abomination
That said he returned the Travellers home in original SotA and saved the Droyne from extinction with the Coyne ceremony.
However his motives are missing. He could have acted from his code of ethics or had ulterior motives.
That said he returned the Travellers home in original SotA and saved the Droyne from extinction with the Coyne ceremony.
However his motives are missing. He could have acted from his code of ethics or had ulterior motives.
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Fully agreed.
For the K'kree is quite moral and ethical to exterminate carnivores, as they are just (from their POV) killing vermin and protecting thier race, while we would consider it genocide...
For the Vargr, it's quite ethical and moral to change sides for a higher charisma leader, as he deserves it, while we would see it as treason...
Awesome! I'm adding him to my Nebulas and Nightmares idea.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Hmm, that does assume that there is no higher ethical being or basis, and that your race and culture determine what the standard is. That is not an acceptable defense according to the War Crimes Trials following World War 2.
If you follow your reasoning to its ultimate conclusion, then the only moral standard to go by is: "Does it benefit me and my immediate family, and if I am stronger than you, yours is mine."
How many of you really would like to live is such a society?
See Thomas Hobbes:
Next, I will get out my Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion.
