Absolutely dead or just mostly dead?

[rancke]

So the fight is over and a PC has had all three physical stats reduced to 0. He's been dead for 15 seconds and there's a TL10 hospital just a few minutes away.

Does he have a chance to survive? My player argues that irreversable brain damage doesn't occur until much later (20-30 minutes?) and that at the very least some NPC doctor should have a chance to save his character. Maybe a Difficult or Very Difficult task, but a chance. And considering what we can do at TL7/8, not such a small chance as all that.


Hans

 

[creativehum]

Speaking only for myself, with the little context provided, I'd say, "Why not?"

I would ask, "What is the upside of the character dying?" (I know of none.)

And "What is the upside of his companions bringing the dying PC to the hospital?" (Lots -- the PCs are now in a hospital while enemies of the PCs are tracking the PCs to the hospital. The PCs need to stay to protect their friend. A gun fight is brewing. All good as far as I can see.)*

*again, I'm lacking lots of info. But that's where my thinking went!

 

[McPerth]

So the fight is over and a PC has had all three physical stats reduced to 0. He's been dead for 15 seconds and there's a TL10 hospital just a few minutes away.

Does he have a chance to survive? My player argues that irreversable brain damage doesn't occur until much later (20-30 minutes?) and that at the very least some NPC doctor should have a chance to save his character. Maybe a Difficult or Very Difficult task, but a chance. And considering what we can do at TL7/8, not such a small chance as all that.

That whould depend on many factors (where the wounds are, kind of wounds, etc..).

At grosso modo, right now at TL 7-8 (as you say) CPR must be started at most 2-3 minutes after heart stops or thr will be (at least) serious sequels. In trauma cases, though (as most combat represents), the main reasons for the heart to stop are direct damage to heart or brain or blood loss.

In none of those cases first aid can help, as in the former case there is no solution (the patient is fully dead, at most some organs will serve for trasplanting), and in the latter (Blood loss) there's no heart failute, just nothing to be pumped by it, and CPR is useless unless you can restore volume with intravenous infusión (and it's quite difficult to start an IV at such low blood presure, moe so under combat stress).

In game terms, if all three stats are at 0 (exactly), I could be convinced to give a slim possibility to be saved, higer possibility if there's full medical facility at hand. If they are at negatives, the lower they are, the lower the chance (representing either vital organ damage or even more blood loss).

 

[rancke]

Speaking only for myself, with the little context provided, I'd say, "Why not?"

I'm exploring the RAW, the Rules As Written. There's a statement in the Core Rulebook to the effect that if all three stats reach zero, the character is dead. But I can't find anything that covers what happens next.

I was wondering if I had missed a bit somewhere, or if there are more elaborate rules in one of Mongoose's other Traveller books, perhaps one that expands on the Medic skill.


Hans

 

[Murphy]

Couldn't one argue that if all stats reach zero then the character is, like, dismembered, his brains blown out or similar? I.e. at that point they can only rest in pieces.

Then again I distinctly remember a drug mentioned (in Central Supply Catalog probably) that adds something like +12 temporary endurance, and can even revive a dead character, retroactively giving them more points to soak up damage with.

 

[creativehum]

I'm exploring the RAW, the Rules As Written. There's a statement in the Core Rulebook to the effect that if all three stats reach zero, the character is dead. But I can't find anything that covers what happens next.

I was wondering if I had missed a bit somewhere, or if there are more elaborate rules in one of Mongoose's other Traveller books, perhaps one that expands on the Medic skill.


Hans

That's more than reasonable. Classic Traveller rules (which the MgT rules spring from) say the same thing: If all three characteristics reduced to zero the character is dead.

What's interesting (and I'm assuming the MgT rules are similar to CT in this regard) is that there's no status of dying. In other words, the character's status doesn't worsen toward death if two characteristics are reduced to zero. The character is stable (with Wounded Characteristics) until healed, and no healing can take place until the proper equipment/facilities are available.

So, you have wounded or dead. And that's it. Rules as Written.

My post picked up on the fact that medical facilities are nearby. In my view, if there is narrative juice to be had, why not take advantage of that.

Moreover, since there are currently no rules in play for dying (i.e. worsening health conditions due to wounds) I house rule that if all three characteristics are at 0 the character is dead or dying depending on the circumstances of the fiction. (How did the character get down to 0 in all three characteristics? Is there the possibility of intensive medical treatment nearby? And so on.)

But, again, RAW... a character down to the three 0s is dead, dead, dead.

 

[mike wightman]

Once the three physical stats are reduced to 0 you are mostly dead. The devil is in the detail.

If It is the result of cumulative damage then there is a good chance that it is blood loss and shock that has caused the heart to stop beating and 'death' to be the result.

Once the circulatory system stops the brain has the oxygen in the blood and the cells currently in the head to keep it alive, and the body will do just about everything it can to hang onto life.

Actual degredation of brain cells does indeed take several minutes after 'death' - so high TL medicine may indeed offer some hope, if you can get the treatment in time.

First you need something to either halt the degradation of the brain - cold berth or oxygenation would do the trick. Next you need a TL9+ trauma centre to perform its miracles. As TL goes up the difficulty of treating such wounds should go down and the length of time 'dead' before treatment has no chance should go up.

If the brain is hit by a plasma bolt then all of this is moot, but it is worth pointing out that people do - rarely - survive having bits of their brain shot out/removed with a pointy stick.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

I agree that, assuming some sort of effort was made to stablise him and he was rushed to a hostpital quickly, he has not impossible odds of recovery.

current (TL7-8) medical tech can do some serious wonders, assuming a patient lives long enough to receive full access to them. at TL 10 or above, I'd say if you were brought in before brain death occurs, Thiers a very good chance that you will live, for a given value of "alive". he might need extensive (and expensive) surgery and prosthetics or cloned tissue, though, depending on how much of him got shot away.


all in all, unless you want to rule that his last hit took his head out, then I'd say the PC could be brought back. he may be bedridden for months, and have a medical bill to rival the ship mortgage, but he'll be alive, dammit!


fun fact: like in DND, the rules assign no actual penalties for being dead. they just asssume that everyone knows what being dead means.

Its actually better than being on just one point, in some ways.

 

[Hyphen]

Penalties for being dead?

Movement rate: 0
All skills: 0
All tasks: Impossible difficulty or higher
Complications: may be pursued by stake-wielding mobs...

 

[Jame]

I would draw from a GM who ran Mega Traveller for my group. Give the character a 2d6 each round, minute or whatever timeframe you find reasonable versus a target number, and as long as this is passed the character can keep going.

You could also draw from D&D 4E, and each time the character does not roll the TN or more he takes a death tick. After 3 of these, the character dies. Gives the player a chance, a bit of control over it and doesn't feel like the character is just taken away.

 

[Hyphen]

OK, maybe a more serious response is due. Hans, you're after Rules As Written?

Medic skill (p 56) says:
"Medic
The Medic skill covers emergency first aid and battlefield triage as
well as diagnosis, treatment, surgery and long-term care. See Injury
and Recovery, page 74.
First aid: Education, 1–6 minutes, Average (+0). The patient regains
lost characteristic points equal to the Effect.
Treat poison or disease: Intelligence, 1–6 hours, Average (+0).
Long-term care: Education, 1–6 hours, Average (+0)."

The Damage section (p 65) says:
"If all three physical characteristics are reduced to 0,
the character is killed."

Finally, the Medical Treatment section (p 75) says:
"First Aid: Applying first aid restores a number of characteristic points
equal to twice the Effect of the Medic check. Points restored by first
aid are divided as desired among all damaged physical characteristics.
First aid must be applied within five minutes of the injuries being
received to be fully effective."

Hey look! I've found an Errata: the Medic skill says "equal" and the Med Treatment says "2x". Oops. Ref's choice, I guess. [Possible house rule: Success gives "equal"; Exceptional success gives "2x".]

In the case of a dead PC, my interpretation is that if you successfully apply First Aid to a "dead" character within 5 minutes of them dying, you can revive them. They're still very sick, of course ("poorly" for you Brits out there - always an amusing understatement), which should lead to a fun side adventure as the PC's friends attempt to obtain proper medical treatment. "What medical fund are you with, ma'am? No fund? Please sign this release authorising a lien of Cr100,000 on your bank account..."

 

[Shonner]

So the fight is over and a PC has had all three physical stats reduced to 0. He's been dead for 15 seconds and there's a TL10 hospital just a few minutes away.

Does he have a chance to survive? My player argues that irreversable brain damage doesn't occur until much later (20-30 minutes?) and that at the very least some NPC doctor should have a chance to save his character. Maybe a Difficult or Very Difficult task, but a chance. And considering what we can do at TL7/8, not such a small chance as all that.


Hans

Depends on what your players agreed on before ever starting a game. If it's a solo game, doesn't matter as much.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I'm exploring the RAW, the Rules As Written. There's a statement in the Core Rulebook to the effect that if all three stats reach zero, the character is dead. But I can't find anything that covers what happens next.

I guess you need a different RPG that covers playing the after life?

So, you have wounded or dead. And that's it. Rules as Written.

Unconscious, seriously wounded... also in the rules as written.

As Hyphen points out, an optional interpretation of the rules could be made based on providing first aid

A character can still benefit from first aid up to an hour after their injury

Keep track of how negative the characteristics went and if first aid can bring them above 0 0 0 the first aid efforts have brought them back from the tunnel of shiny light, or the hot place as applicable :devil:.

For the OP, if somebody already performed first aid and status is still dead, well, they are gone. But if there is nobody on site that can provide first aid, yes, get them to the high tech emergency room in less than an hour and let the Doc perform first aid.

What's interesting (and I'm assuming the MgT rules are similar to CT in this regard) is that there's no status of dying. In other words, the character's status doesn't worsen toward death

While they don't give it a title of dying, from the rules

the character may never heal naturally and will even get worse if his Endurance DM is currently negative.

Summing up the rules in my own words for you: A character that is still seriously wounded after first aid could be considered dying until such time as they can be stabilized by surgery or medical care.

Hey look! I've found an Errata: the Medic skill says "equal" and the Med Treatment says "2x". Oops. Ref's choice, I guess.

Not errata. As per the rules. First Aid within 5 minutes is 2x. After that, but within an hour, is equal. In this case, as in others, the task examples in the skills section are for one of the possibilities without all the possible DMs and rules options and should not be interpreted as "all tasks of this type should be done in this way".

 

[rancke]

I guess you need a different RPG that covers playing the after life?

I'd settle for rules that reflected Real Life enough that a player wouldn't feel hosed by the rules when his character is killed.

Though some that also reflected ultra-tech medical capabilities would not be amiss for an SF roleplaying game.

For the OP, if somebody already performed first aid and status is still dead, well, they are gone. But if there is nobody on site that can provide first aid, yes, get them to the high tech emergency room in less than an hour and let the Doc perform first aid.

OK, that helps. It's fine as far as it goes, but it doesn't go far enough. A fully equipped medical facility should, logically, be able to outperform first aid. Especially an ultra-tech facility.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

OK, that helps. It's fine as far as it goes, but it doesn't go far enough. A fully equipped medical facility should, logically, be able to outperform first aid. Especially an ultra-tech facility.

I agree.
Strictly my opinion, but for 'mostly dead' vs 'fully dead'*,
I would suggest a 5 minute window of opportunity for first aid to be effective, and a 1 hour window of opportunity for the 'ultra-tech' wonder hospital to reverse the damage.

[Personally, I would continue to apply damage driving the character far into the negatives and use that as a gauge for the required length of the hospital stay.]

* a 'Princess Bride' reference to Miracle Max.

 

[CosmicGamer]

OK, that helps. It's fine as far as it goes, but it doesn't go far enough. A fully equipped medical facility should, logically, be able to outperform first aid. Especially an ultra-tech facility.

You'd need an entire medical library to cover every type of injury and treatment... the rules obviously need to be simplified.

First aid is, well, first. Next is surgery. If you want death to be more recoverable in your games, there is no reason you can't allow surgery to bring people back from "near" death if enough points are regained.

 

[rancke]

You'd need an entire medical library to cover every type of injury and treatment...

Then you'd need an encyclopedic knowledge of first aid to cover every type of injury, wouldn't you?

...the rules obviously need to be simplified.

Obviously.

First aid is, well, first. Next is surgery.

First aid is also less effective than surgery. You can stop someone from bleeding out by applying a tourniquet, but you need to sew up the wound to get the blood flowing the right way in the body again.

One could make an argument for letting first aid prevent further deterioration and death temporarily, but not giving back any attibute points at all.

If you want death to be more recoverable in your games, there is no reason you can't allow surgery to bring people back from "near" death if enough points are regained.

I can do anything I want in my games (As long as my players don't object). But there is a perfectly good reason why I don't want to do that: if I did, people who preferred to stick to the RAW wouldn't be able to use my adventures.


Hans

 

[CosmicGamer]

If a character decides to get into a deadly situation they should be ready for their character to die. There is some harsh realism for your game. So what if there is high tech medical care. A shot to the head with brains splattered to the wall... Hope you have a clone.

some that also reflected ultra-tech medical capabilities would not be amiss for an SF roleplaying game.

For any game, I would assume "dead" or in MgT "killed" reflects the setting and rules. Iin this or any game it could very well be dead beyond any of the settings "normal" ability to deal with. For Traveller, high tech first aid kits, high tech educated medics, high tech hospitals and medical equipment all considered and, yup, "killed".

However, stats 0 0 0 and dead is not a status known to the characters!!!!

Until they attempt medical treatment all they know is what they see and medical instruments tell them.

In some cases they may be stats -5 0 0 or 0 -1 0, or 0 0 1 or 3 0 0 and so on. They get first aid, surgery and sometimes they are "called time of death" before they get to the hospital, sometimes they die on the table, sometimes they are critical, sometimes they are stabilized. All are possible with the rules if you role play and don't play the OOC stat info!

So the whole concept of are they really dead? Reveal that IC.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I can do anything I want in my games (As long as my players don't object). But there is a perfectly good reason why I don't want to do that: if I did, people who preferred to stick to the RAW wouldn't be able to use my adventures.

If that is your perspective, you did not make it clear to me but I still was only offering suggestions that I felt fit with the RAW because that is how I do things as much as possible too.

Rules are open to multiple interpretations and I don't think there is a rule against applying first aid or surgery to a "dead" person, if one wants to interpret "killed" as including near death or a state which is recoverable.

 

[CosmicGamer]

You can stop someone from bleeding out by applying a tourniquet

You barbarian! I guess if there is no first aid kit.

First aid falls under the Medic skill. I'd think that the average person today that learned some CPR and took some basic first aid would still be a -3 untrained Medic in game terms vs a Medic 0 being someone trained and on the job as a first aid provider like a battlefield medic, emergency room nurse, or doctor in training. Medic 1 being a doctor with little experience or very experienced first responder and Medic 2 being the full doctor. Keep in mind that all those military careers like the navy are probably taught simple damage control and first aid, just not enough to get engineering or medical skill at even level 0 basic training. Perhaps enough first aid to possibly stabilize someone with obvious issues, prevent them from choking or such, but not enough to assess symptoms of internal injuries, poisons and diseases, set bones, know what meds to provide, and set up IVs, use the simple high tech tools of the trade to do emergency healing. Which is what I see first aid is by the rules, a medic trying to provide emergency healing and not just stabilizing a patient, as it can often provide a recovery of characteristics.

For people looking for more detail, the rules do not specifically cover things like bleeding out or stabilizing but within the rules getting worse and preventing someone from getting worse are possible outcomes.