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Absolutely dead or just mostly dead?

Looks like the question is what happens if all three physical characteristics are "0". I go with if the player manages to get all three characteristics reduced to "0', he/she/it is dead, and time to roll up a new character.

I do not go out of the way to kill my players, so if someone does manage to achieve that, I certainly do not wish to rob them of that achievement of being the first player to get a character killed in one of my games. Might even make up a special certificate for the achievement.
 
Looks like the question is what happens if all three physical characteristics are "0". I go with if the player manages to get all three characteristics reduced to "0', he/she/it is dead, and time to roll up a new character.
The question was what the rules say happens if all three characteristics are "0", but since that appears to be pretty vague (they say the character is dead, but they don't explain what that entails), we might as well talk opinions instead.

In my opinion, having all three characteristics at "0" does not necessarily mean having the brains splashed across the floor. It means the heart has stopped. Which means the character is going to be irretrivably dead in a short while unless someone saves him. And it's not time to roll up a new character until either no one has tried to save him or they have tried and failed.

In MgT terms I think someone would have to perform a Medic task successfully in order to save such a character, the difficulty of the task being related to how much excess damage there was and how long it takes to get the character under treatment. With bonuses the higher the TL of the medical equipment.

I'm not sure what numbers to put on the task and the modifiers.


Hans
 
To be completely honest, "dead" is not really that vague ... Dead means dead.
... the problem that I have, is that I don't like that particular result.

So the RAW are less 'vague' than they are :( .
 
To be completely honest, "dead" is not really that vague ... Dead means dead.
... the problem that I have, is that I don't like that particular result.

So the RAW are less 'vague' than they are :( .

I suspect that most players do not like that particular result.

Back when I had just really started running AD&D, and this is going to date me quite a bit, the Dragon had in the April issue (Large Hint: APRIL Issue) a questionnaire for DMs to give to their players. Being a bit odd, I thought it would be interesting to do, promptly photocopied it, and gave it to my regular group. One individual made the following comment: "Doesn't anyone ever get killed around here." The next game session saw the group very much hoping that the commentator would get his wish, as I worked really hard throwing things at them, including engaging the front of the party and then hitting the rear. Did not kill anyone, but I did do my best. The group from then on did not complain about anyone not dying, and always, but always, maintained a good rear guard. I did make sure that they needed it.

Moral of the story, a good Game Master should never be out to kill his players, but if they do dumb things, consequences do result. If a player acts like he/she/it wishes to become the inhabitant of a body bag, they should be, by all means, obliged.
 
To be completely honest, "dead" is not really that vague ... Dead means dead.
That's just it, it doesn't. With modern medical technology, let alone far future medical technology, the final consequences of being dead is not always being permanently dead. So dead does not necessarily mean 'Dead (no Saving Throw)'.


Hans
 
The question was what the rules say happens if all three characteristics are "0", but since that appears to be pretty vague (they say the character is dead, but they don't explain what that entails), we might as well talk opinions instead.

In my opinion, having all three characteristics at "0" does not necessarily mean having the brains splashed across the floor. It means the heart has stopped. Which means the character is going to be irretrivably dead in a short while unless someone saves him. And it's not time to roll up a new character until either no one has tried to save him or they have tried and failed.

In MgT terms I think someone would have to perform a Medic task successfully in order to save such a character, the difficulty of the task being related to how much excess damage there was and how long it takes to get the character under treatment. With bonuses the higher the TL of the medical equipment.

I'm not sure what numbers to put on the task and the modifiers.


Hans

No, hans, they do not say "Dead". They say "Killed." Those aren't quite synonyms.

The technical meanings of dead involve cessation of various bodily processes.

The connotation of killed in the context of injury usually is "Not just dead, but permanently dead". As in, people usually don't say "Fred was killed during surgery, but the brought him back." Excepting when talking about the genres of Superheroes, D&D-ish fantasy, and soap opera.

But, if one wants to ignore that connotational difference, we can look at the rules for how to have a consistent "Death Experience" within the rules as written (and only twisting badly the intent of "is killed").

See, page 75 notes healing rates for Int and Edu. It also mentions that they can be damaged (which of course is almost self-evident given that they can need to be healed).

Suffocation does 1d6 per minute. (1d6 per round if the head isn't getting circulation or from vacuum exposure.)

Page 75 also (under Surgery) implies that a serious wound is effectively not not a serious wound if first aid (also on 75) heals one back to one or no attributes at zero. It also gives 5 minutes for first aid to be full effect.

So... CPR...
Probably needs a rule.
Let's just ignore CPR for the moment.

The suffocation damage, and anything past the 3 physicals, probably should go to Int and Edu...

We'll be generous and say that, for the 5 minutes where first aid is fully effective, it's the lower rate of 1d6 per minute.

OK... now we have a way to save them. But they're going to be compromised mentally for only as many days as their higher mental attribute. (The physicals are going to be the real limit).
After about 15 points (on average) the character's going to be toast. That averages 4.5 dice, so that's 4-5 minutes, so that reality checks, too.

Going Boldly into Houserules Turf

CPR: I's say Easy, Con & Medical, 1 minute; succeed or fail, the patient does not take damage from suffocation for that minute. On a fail, they take the margin of failure in additional damage, either from suffocation, or from CPR induced trauma.

Lasting effects of being down: after all 5 damage taking atts are zeroed, the rest of the damage should reduce the permanent ones, rolling 1d6 for each die of damage for which attribute takes it. Any permanent zeroed, just like an aging crisis. Any two zeroed? Dead.

Which permanent attribute takes it?
1d6 for each die of damage...
1: Strength
2: Dexterity
3: Endurance
4: Intelligence
5: Education
6: highest of those five attributes.
 
If Hans does not want people dying, then why does he not simply make a flat statement something like:

When a character's statistics are reduced to "0", immediate hospitalization is required, and character will be returned to normal, with no degradation of any attribute within "X" number of weeks.

That or simply say that no one ever dies.
 
That's just it, it doesn't. With modern medical technology, let alone far future medical technology, the final consequences of being dead is not always being permanently dead. So dead does not necessarily mean 'Dead (no Saving Throw)'.


Hans
So why, in your opinion, is something like a loss of strength due to aging permanent, but exsanguination and oxygen deprivation to the brain can be reversed by 'future medical technology'.
Restoring dead brain cells sounds closer to post-anagathic technology ... which is post TL 15.
At some point, your medical treatment is going to render the population immortal.
I think the intent of the RAW is clearly that three attributes at 0 is equivalent to -10 HP in D&D ... time to go through the pockets looking for loose change and activate the clone if you choose to go for a high-tech 'resurrection spell'.

I have no problem with house rules for other outcomes, but a game that allows death during chargen probably isn't that squeamish about death during an adventure.
 
That's just it, it doesn't. With modern medical technology, let alone far future medical technology, the final consequences of being dead is not always being permanently dead. So dead does not necessarily mean 'Dead (no Saving Throw)'.
No pulse and not breathing is not dead to me. With modern or future medical tech I'd think medical professionals do not go throwing the word dead around while they are still trying to treat someone.

So, before reading on, please think about and answer:

How often do you thing people are declared dead by a medical professional and then continue to get medical treatment?

How often do you think people come back from being dead? 1 in 100, 1 in a thousand, one in a million?






Is it over 2%? In a 2d6 system, the lowest % probability is around 2.8%. Below 2% while not impossible, is not probable enough to be addressed by the rules. Even if you don't agree, I guess Mongoose feels the percentage chance is too low for there to be any survival roll.

To me, dead = called time of death by a medical professional not just some untrained individual poking a body with a toe and it doesn't move "looks dead to me". This isn't some ancient society with doctors that believe more in spirits than science and people are constantly coming back from what is declared as dead. In today's society if someone isn't breathing and doesn't have a pulse the average person knows that the person may not dead and they can try CPR until medical aid arrives. Even if they don't know CRP, they call for help and hope for the best and don't go saying they are dead. As you've said, the game is set in the future with future tech. Even the average person in a high tech medical society might see a severed head and say let's rush him to the hospital" instead of "he's dead" if the known tech is capable of keeping a brain on life support.

To me, someone is most likely no longer receiving medical treatment once they are declared dead by a medical professional, so how often do people really come back alive?

To me, any statement of death where there is recovery is just an error, usually by a non professional but also on rare occasions by a professional. Rare enough by a professional that there need not be special rules for it I believe.

In game, someone can call someone else dead based on appearance even if the stats do not represent it and thus you can easily role play near death and coming back from dead situations as often as you'd like.

By dictionary definition you get things like absolutely, completely, no longer alive but like most things there are multiple interpretations so you also have "having the appearance of death". So of course you are allowed to have your own opinion and there is even something in real life to back it up.

For the games perspective on it, perhaps the most telling thing is what you are complaining about
(they say the character is dead, but they don't explain what that entails)
No rules for near death experiences, bringing someone back from the dead, being left for dead... Just killed. Did the writer and editors really mean for death to be recoverable and then totally forget to put the rules in for it?

So in this case, perhaps the rules and you do not agree on the interpretation of "dead" (not that the rules used this term). It does not mean either is wrong, but as you have said you want to use the RAW, shouldn't you forgo forcing your interpretation of death onto the rules and use the interpretation that seams more likely the intent?
If Hans does not want people dying, then why does he not simply make a flat statement something like:

When a character's statistics are reduced to "0", immediate hospitalization is required, and character will be returned to normal, with no degradation of any attribute within "X" number of weeks.
He asked if he missed some RAW about recovering from death, but there are no specific rules just for this and I've already pointed out the rules for first aid and surgery that do not specifically say they can not be used once stats have gone below 0 0 0 so one could use this with Hans' interpretation of dead to have recoverable death within the RAW. Not sure what more he wants?

Perhaps he could clarify what further assistance he's looking for so that this Traveller community could better help him. Or are you just venting about something you don't like in the rules and not really looking for any further input?

Perhaps that should be another identifier for a post "just venting".
 
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CPR: I's say Easy, Con & Medical, 1 minute; succeed or fail, the patient does not take damage from suffocation for that minute. On a fail, they take the margin of failure in additional damage, either from suffocation, or from CPR induced trauma.

I'd use 5-10 minute increments (as MgT uses them, though no such increments are used on it), as the possibility to recover a patient in 1-6 minutes is low, and doctors don't usually give up before having tried for at least 10-30 minutes. I'd also make it more difficult (perhaps increasing the difficulty with each minute past when CPR is started)

How often do you thing people are declared dead by a medical professional and then continue to get medical treatment?

When there are legal reasons to do it.

Esample: you're a paramedic on an ambulance. You arrive at the place and realice the victim is dead, but if you so declare, it must be left at place while waiting for the judge to authorize its transfer. So, beter you say it's in critical situation and take him/her to a medical facility, while practicing (or seeming so) CPR on the way. It will be declared dead on the way (a not too rare situation), but you can avoid some legal mess...

How often do you think people come back from being dead? 1 in 100, 1 in a thousand, one in a million?

It depends on the situation. If the heart stops in a medical facility, up to 30-40% may be recovered (depending on the cause and experience of the team). Out if it, it mostly depends on the cause and time of response. As I said, traumatic causes are the worst.

See that laws (at least in Spain) only allow a full doctor do declare someone dead, unless there are descomposition signs (lividness included) or amputations not compatible with life (beheaded, teared apart, etc). In any other case, not even a nurse (there are no paramedics in Spain) may declare him/her dead and is expected to try CPR until it is taken to a medical facility or a doctor says to stop.
 
Just a reminder to everyone: These are my opinions, not the RAW.

So why, in your opinion, is something like a loss of strength due to aging permanent, but exsanguination and oxygen deprivation to the brain can be reversed by 'future medical technology'.
a) Because that's how it works in the real world. Aging effects are a lot more difficult to reverse than many injuries.

b) Also, aging rolls are even more abstract than the combat system.

c) Also, the aging rules are missing modifications for tech level (as in, the writers made a mistake in not having that). Someone living at TL15 ought to live longer than someone living at TL7.

Restoring dead brain cells sounds closer to post-anagathic technology ... which is post TL 15.
So it is. However, brain damage from lack of oxygen to the brain can be recovered from after a period of more than 0 seconds (the interval allowed for by the rules if 'killed' means 'absolutely dead'). So if the rules don't allow for that, the rules are inadequate. And not for any good reason that I can see.

At some point, your medical treatment is going to render the population immortal.
a) Yes, but not at TL15.

b) Allowing a chance to revive a dead character is not the same thing as making the entire population immortal. It's not even making that character immortal. It just increases the verisimilitude of the rules.

c) So what?

I think the intent of the RAW is clearly that three attributes at 0 is equivalent to -10 HP in D&D ... time to go through the pockets looking for loose change...
Could be. If so, the RAW fails to reflect reality. Both actual Real Life reality and SF ultra-tech medical capability reality.

...and activate the clone if you choose to go for a high-tech 'resurrection spell'.
a) I know T5 introduces such technologies. For earlier Traveller versions braintaping and uploading are not available (at TL15).

b) Cloning and brain uploading is a good deal less realistic than fixing a dead persons wounds and restarting his heart.

c) It's also not the same thing at all (unless you're playing PARANOIA).


Hans
 
Just to play devil's advocate (since I already admit to not using death at 0 IMTU) ...

What if all of these 'near death' scenarios fall into the area of 0-0-N [where N is some number greater than 0]?
Two attributes at 0 render the character unconscious (and vulnerable) in CT ... and I assume MgT is similar.
So 'WHAT IF' 0-0-0 is not cardiac arrest but rather a flatline EEG or no activity fMRI?
The time to rush a person to the hospital is while he still has at least 0-0-1 to avoid the 0-0-0 brain death.
0-0-N becomes the equivalent to -1 to -9 HP in D&D ... a chance to apply first aid or advanced healing before it gets to 0-0-0/-10HP and 'killed'.
 
It depends on the situation.
How about averaged over all situations? Because as I said in an earlier post, an entire medical library of game documentation to cover all possibilities is not within reason.

To me, the different situations, including someone that is a medical professional believing someone is really dead but pretends is not for legal reasons, are all a possibility to role play within the more simplified RAW.
 
What's interesting (and I'm assuming the MgT rules are similar to CT in this regard) is that there's no status of dying. In other words, the character's status doesn't worsen toward death if two characteristics are reduced to zero. The character is stable (with Wounded Characteristics) until healed, and no healing can take place until the proper equipment/facilities are available.

In fact, MgT has some differences with CT in this sense. The first one is that initial damage is always applied to Endurance.

Another difference is that when a carácter is seriously wounded, it regains his End bonus per day. As (per previous paragraph) Endurance is the most probable stat being reduced to 0, this means a bonus of -3, so he lossess 3 points in the remaining characteristic points per day, unless he receives medical treatment that raises his endurance back. (CB:page 75 , under natural healing)
 
What if all of these 'near death' scenarios fall into the area of 0-0-N [where N is some number greater than 0]?
Two attributes at 0 render the character unconscious (and vulnerable) in CT ... and I assume MgT is similar.
So 'WHAT IF' 0-0-0 is not cardiac arrest but rather a flatline EEG or no activity fMRI?
The time to rush a person to the hospital is while he still has at least 0-0-1 to avoid the 0-0-0 brain death.
0-0-N becomes the equivalent to -1 to -9 HP in D&D ... a chance to apply first aid or advanced healing before it gets to 0-0-0/-10HP and 'killed'.
That might work if the rules didn't allow someone with two atributes reduced to 0 to linger for several days before dying. Admittedly, he'd have to have more than 3 in the last attribute to last more than a day. But somone capable of living for a day is not suffering from a stopped heart.

Also: "seriously injured characters who have somehow avoided unconciousness cannot move except to hobble or crawl along at 1.5 meters per combat round." [Core, p. 75]

That's serious enough, but it's still being alive. If the character has 4 points left in his third attribute, he can linger for two days.


Hans
 
Perhaps he could clarify what further assistance he's looking for so that this Traveller community could better help him. Or are you just venting about something you don't like in the rules and not really looking for any further input?
Since people kept on posting their opinions, I've gone along with the majority and shifted from my initial desire for information to venting about something I consider to be a lack in the rules.


Hans
 
How about averaged over all situations? Because as I said in an earlier post, an entire medical library of game documentation to cover all possibilities is not within reason.

It's difficult to average them, but, at grosso modo, chances when the heart stopping are due to illness were (IIRC) about 10-20% last time I read stadistics on them (it was time ago, I'm afraid, and they may have varied).

When they are due to combat (or other trauma), I keep in what I said:

In trauma cases, though (as most combat represents), the main reasons for the heart to stop are direct damage to heart or brain or blood loss.

In none of those cases first aid can help, as in the former case there is no solution (the patient is fully dead, at most some organs will serve for trasplanting), and in the latter (Blood loss) there's no heart failute, just nothing to be pumped by it, and CPR is useless unless you can restore volume with intravenous infusión (and it's quite difficult to start an IV at such low blood presure, moe so under combat stress).
 
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So perhaps 0-0-4 is a wound that is slowly going septic.
Perhaps 0-0-3 is internal bleeding leading to shock.
Perhaps 0-0-2 is major damage to internal organs.
Perhaps 0-0-1 is the arterial bleed or stopped heart where time is extra critical.

I could easily imagine a wounded character at 0-0-1 with minutes to live, receiving a far future tech shot that is easier to administer than an automatic defibrillator machine, which stabilizes him enough to stretch the 4-5 minutes of dying into a 1 hour window to get him to hospital class medical treatment.
 
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