ACS Zero: "Standard" hulls missing

[robject]

What's missing in ACS are the "standard" hulls. I know the hulls are intended to be rather standard, but they aren't completely so -- for example, planetoid hulls can never be completely "standard".

In other words, these hulls have within them an assumed range of customizability. After all, no two classes with winged hulls are alike.

Now, thinking about it from a T5 mindset. Prefab hulls are of a utilitarian but common configuration. Also, Book 2 appears to have just a dash of Niven's Puppeteer hulls in its prefab hulls table, so it's not slavishly utilitarian or common. The point of a discount is to provide a model and incentive for typical missions.

Given these fuzzy parameters, I am even more inclined to adapt these from TTB. Until then, here are some of my wild guesses.

Unless otherwise noted, each hull is unstreamlined, capable of tarmac landings, has fuel scoops with purifiers, standard life support, a Computer Model/1, and a 10 ton bridge.

Type         Tons Eng/Main MCr Months Notes
------------ ---- -------- --- ------ ---------------------------
Exploration   100  16/63     9    3   2FLNW
Trader        200  24/165    5    3   
Packet        300  40/244   10    7   SNX
Merchant      400  45/340    8    8   X

Notes: 2=Computer Model/2. F=Complete fuel treatment. L=Lift Body. N=Landers.
S=Streamlined. W=Water landing capable. X=Long Term Life Support.

Exploration Hull (100t): 16t Engineering / 63t Main. MCr 9. 3 months.
Lift Body with Landers, water-landing capable, complete wilderness fuel treatment, Computer Model/2.

Trader Hull (200t): 24t Engineering / 165t Main. MCr 5. 3 months.

Packet Hull (300t): 40t Engineering / 244t Main. MCr 10. 7 months.
Streamlined with Landers, Long Term Life Support.

Merchant Hull (400t): 45t Engineering / 340t Main. MCr 8. 8 months.
Long Term Life Support.

 

[pendragonman]

True. How about figuring the regular price for a hull of the given size, then take a 20% discount (from both price and time) off that to represent the standardization of the construction practices, standardized tools and jigs, standardized compartmental pieces (and of course those pieces that are still built between actual contracts, making assembly of a new one "straight off the shelf"), and the long term contractual relationships with the subcontractors.


Thoughts?

 

[robject]

Well, my second thought would be to just clone them in from Book 2.

 

[Original_Carl]

What if every starship in the Traveller Universe was bespoke? In other words, what if there were no standard hull?

 

[jcrocker]

What if every starship in the Traveller Universe was bespoke? In other words, what if there were no standard hull?

Parts and spares would be very troublesome.

 

[Timerover51]

What if every starship in the Traveller Universe was bespoke? In other words, what if there were no standard hull?

You will have standard hulls the same way you have standard nautical ship designs and standard aircraft runs. Once you do the initial tooling up to produce something like that, it makes sense to keep building them. Otherwise, all of the tooling is going to be charged to the one ship, and that is going to be extremely expensive.

 

[Original_Carl]

You will have standard hulls the same way you have standard nautical ship designs and standard aircraft runs. Once you do the initial tooling up to produce something like that, it makes sense to keep building them. Otherwise, all of the tooling is going to be charged to the one ship, and that is going to be extremely expensive.

Because starships are already pretty expensive to own and operate, I assume the demand for starships is low, and by extension, there aren't very many shipbuilders. The ones that exist may have standard hulls, or perhaps the hull isn't the tricky part.

Consider also that building a ship in T5 consists of a push/pull between hull size, drive size, mission fulfillment (cargo, passenger, etc), and cost. It's a bespoke process in the metagame, so perhaps it could be bespoke in the game universe.

Parts and spares would be very troublesome.

Indeed! Space Travelling would be challenging, expensive, and fraught with danger. Bold adventurers only need apply.

 

[Timerover51]

Because starships are already pretty expensive to own and operate, I assume the demand for starships is low, and by extension, there aren't very many shipbuilders. The ones that exist may have standard hulls, or perhaps the hull isn't the tricky part.

Actually, depending on how you value an Imperial Credit in terms of US Dollars, the Scout, Free Trader, and Far Trader, and even the Subsidized Merchant are not that much more expensive than a large Boeing or Airbus airliner, and on par with a nautical bulk carrier cargo ship or small cruise ship (under 100 passengers). The very large nautical cruise ships are being built in blocks of 4 to 5 to cover the cost of setting up to build them, and those ships are running over a Billion Dollars apiece. A World War 2-Era Liberty ship, which cost about $2 Million in 1943, if priced for inflation would run close to $28 Million in 2016 US Dollars and $7 Million in 1977 Dollars.

Consider also that building a ship in T5 consists of a push/pull between hull size, drive size, mission fulfillment (cargo, passenger, etc), and cost. It's a bespoke process in the metagame, so perhaps it could be bespoke in the game universe.

A standard hull is just that. You have the same basic blocks in terms of engine space and bridge, with engines setting the fuel requirement, everything else is just customizing it for the purchaser. Not all airliners are equipped precisely the same, as each airline has its own ideas of how the interior of the plane should be, and in some cases, which maker of engines to install. You have long-range versions of the 747, high passenger capacity version, and cargo versions, all with the same basic airframe.

Indeed! Space Travelling would be challenging, expensive, and fraught with danger. Bold adventurers only need apply.

Then you have problems with the whole idea of an Imperium linked together by large numbers of starships. One thing the game does not put in is insurance rates. If something is "fraught with danger", the insurance rates are either sky-high, like 10% of the cost of the ship, EVERY TRIP, or unobtainable. The rule for most nautical shipping companies on Earth is, "no insurance, no cargo".

 

[jcrocker]

Indeed! Space Travelling would be challenging, expensive, and fraught with danger. Bold adventurers only need apply.

If Every Single Ship was a custom job, Every Single Repair would be a custom job.

Either way, Space Travelling will still be challenging, expensive, and fraught with danger - but with standard parts, fittings, and components, repair jobs become, well, standard. Everything's at the warehouse. If the GM needs them stuck on that world/in that port for a while for Reasons, then there was just a run on that part, and it's on back-order. But it's in a warehouse somewhere.

With a custom bespoke ship, the least little problem/accident could potentially put the ship into the repair bay for weeks, if not longer. The more custom and esoteric the ship and its parts, the longer it will take to repair parts, or worse, try to fabricate spares on the fly. If it's a true one-of-a-kind work of art, better hope that the original artist is willing to come fix it.

If you want that kind of Traveller Universe, be my guest - but my concern as a player in it that the game would become less "Traveller" and more "Repair Awaiter".

 

[Condottiere]

Take the example of the de Havilland Comet, the world's first jetliner, and the Nimrod derivative, a rather effective sub hunter and maritime patrol aircraft; they were practically hand built, which made repairing them, and worse, upgrading them, very expensive and time consuming.

 

[whartung]

If Every Single Ship was a custom job, Every Single Repair would be a custom job.

But this is not a problem. This is reality, and the tradesmen and marketplace are built around doing "custom repairs".

Many commercial ships are just that…"custom jobs". But their components are quite standard. Standard diesel motors, standard hydraulic pumps, standard electronics.

Most houses are "custom jobs".

But they all follow basic standards of design, use standards for components, standards for base measurements, etc.

I can call pretty much any plumber, and he can come work on my house. When they replaced the central heasting/air unit, amazing, the new unit fit in the space, and was essentially the same size as the old unit. It even mated to my duct work.

When I gutted my fathers kitchen, built 40 years ago, I was able to put in brand new, pre-assembled, pre-finished, purchased off the floor at Home Depot kitchen cabinets and what do you know. They fit just like the ones I tore out. The cabinets fit, the new appliances fit, every thing fit.

The entire industry is built around these standard components installed in to custom places.

Cars and what not are standardized not so much because of repair, but because of production. You'll find many a new car that has it's own quirks the frustrate repair, from special tools, to tight fittings, to very specialized parts.

A car (once it's assorted components are in place) can be assembled in less than a week. A house takes much longer. A ship, far longer. There's only so much efficiency that can be gained in creating the larger structures. When the demands for efficiency fall, the capability of customization rises.

A manufactured home (i.e. a "trailer", but not necessarily) come with more limits on design as it's built in components on an assembly line that are shipped and mated. The production line for this components is standardized for efficiency.

Consider Log Homes. Limited plans, sold in "kits".

A ship is a big hole to fill with stuff. Given basic patterns such as an engineering space, corridor space, and any dynamic balance issues, the rest is pretty much carte blanche, and doesn't slow the ships build down that much.

So, yea, custom ships, but standard jump and maneuver drives.

 

[robject]

Note that I have an ulterior motive: cribbing and adapting the prefab hulls from TTB/Book 2 gives me another avenue for fast-track ship design.

You will have standard hulls the same way you have standard nautical ship designs and standard aircraft runs. Once you do the initial tooling up to produce something like that, it makes sense to keep building them. Otherwise, all of the tooling is going to be charged to the one ship, and that is going to be extremely expensive.

This.

Cars and what not are standardized not so much because of repair, but because of production. You'll find many a new car that has it's own quirks the frustrate repair, from special tools, to tight fittings, to very specialized parts.

A car (once it's assorted components are in place) can be assembled in less than a week. A house takes much longer. A ship, far longer. [...]

A ship is a big hole to fill with stuff. Given basic patterns such as an engineering space, corridor space, and any dynamic balance issues, the rest is pretty much carte blanche, and doesn't slow the ships build down that much.

So, yea, custom ships, but standard jump and maneuver drives

And this.

I keep forgetting to look at The Traveller Book for the prefab hulls table, their construction times, and their engineering room limitations.

 

[jcrocker]

Many commercial ships are just that…"custom jobs". But their components are quite standard. Standard diesel motors, standard hydraulic pumps, standard electronics.

(snip)

The entire industry is built around these standard components installed in to custom places.


So, yea, custom ships, but standard jump and maneuver drives.

I think we're working off different definitions of 'custom' and standard'.

If that's your definition of 'bespoke' then yeah, standard parts in a more-or-less industry standard hull with the only customization being which standard wall the standard sink is on, you're right, that would be pretty much a standard repair time.

If your slider for 'bespoke' is at the other end of the spectrum - "oh, my shipyard doesn't use standard compound three in the coolant systems, it does this exquisite thing with some sort of ammonium compound and turbo pumping, you get an extra 20% efficiency out of it. Have any in stock? No? How long to order? What?" - then that would give you a whole lot of time to explore whatever world you're on.

 

[Condottiere]

Far more likely the personal computer business model, where components can be manufactured by anyone, as long as they adhere to a set of standards that allows inter-compatibility.

 

[aramis]

But this is not a problem. This is reality, and the tradesmen and marketplace are built around doing "custom repairs".

Many commercial ships are just that…"custom jobs". But their components are quite standard. Standard diesel motors, standard hydraulic pumps, standard electronics.

Most houses are "custom jobs".

Not where I've lived.

The neighborhood had 5 designs in total, and 2 of them were also done mirrored. 150 houses, most of them (>90) of 3 designs.

Next neighborhood, again, 3 designs. Another neighborhood, a mile from the first, uses the same 3 dominant designs.

The apartment complex I lived in last: one of 7 identical building plan complexes in Anchorage. 8 identical buildings in that one. 4-6 buildings each in the others; all are identical 6-plexes, with 2 apartment designs per building, each design mirrored across the centerline. (half-basement floor has the mechanical room and laundry, so has smaller second bedrooms; what's the master above is the smaller on that floor.) Same builders, 7 different complexes, but all 40-some buildings to the same, time-tested plan.

 

[pendragonman]

Not where I've lived.

The neighborhood had 5 designs in total, and 2 of them were also done mirrored. 150 houses, most of them (>90) of 3 designs.

Next neighborhood, again, 3 designs. Another neighborhood, a mile from the first, uses the same 3 dominant designs.

The apartment complex I lived in last: one of 7 identical building plan complexes in Anchorage. 8 identical buildings in that one. 4-6 buildings each in the others; all are identical 6-plexes, with 2 apartment designs per building, each design mirrored across the centerline. (half-basement floor has the mechanical room and laundry, so has smaller second bedrooms; what's the master above is the smaller on that floor.) Same builders, 7 different complexes, but all 40-some buildings to the same, time-tested plan.

I think what is meant is the following:

Yes, almost every neighborhood has a small sett of standard designs at start of build, but unless all of those houses are build "on spec" or speculative builds already constructed and waiting for a purchaser, each and every one of those houses will be slightly different based on the requirements of the owner as time of purchase pre-build. Small changes like different light fixtures, fireplace or no fireplace, moving interior walls a foot this way or that, adding a foot to the width or length or both, adding a third car garage, etc...is what makes every house a custom job.

But they all come from the same components, electrical systems are electrical systems, etc.

 

[jcrocker]

Small changes like different light fixtures, fireplace or no fireplace, moving interior walls a foot this way or that, adding a foot to the width or length or both, adding a third car garage, etc...is what makes every house a custom job.

I see the argument, but I was thinking that if it's 95 to 99% standard, that's really a 'tweak' not a true custom job. The salespeople for the housing development are going to call it 'customization' because they want the sale.

But if you ask an industrial engineer what constitutes 'customization' you might get a very different answer than a sales rep.

From the tone of the original post I took 'custom' or 'bespoke' to be Different, not to just have the gold trim option in the latrine, or matte blue instead of matte black. To use the house example, there'd be the bungalow, next door would be the spray-foam cave [remember when in the 70s those were going to be the next big thing?], next door to the fieldstone Norman Castle next to the converted windmill. Yes, you can get someone to fix any one of them, but the guy who can dress the stone for the Castle isn't set up with the spray gear to put in another garage on the spray cave.

 

[pendragonman]

I see the argument, but I was thinking that if it's 95 to 99% standard, that's really a 'tweak' not a true custom job. The salespeople for the housing development are going to call it 'customization' because they want the sale.

But if you ask an industrial engineer what constitutes 'customization' you might get a very different answer than a sales rep.

From the tone of the original post I took 'custom' or 'bespoke' to be Different, not to just have the gold trim option in the latrine, or matte blue instead of matte black. To use the house example, there'd be the bungalow, next door would be the spray-foam cave [remember when in the 70s those were going to be the next big thing?], next door to the fieldstone Norman Castle next to the converted windmill. Yes, you can get someone to fix any one of them, but the guy who can dress the stone for the Castle isn't set up with the spray gear to put in another garage on the spray cave.

And this is why questions should be posed in exacting language. Bespoke, nd similar wording, means different things to different people.

 

[aramis]

I think what is meant is the following:

Yes, almost every neighborhood has a small sett of standard designs at start of build, but unless all of those houses are build "on spec" or speculative builds already constructed and waiting for a purchaser, each and every one of those houses will be slightly different based on the requirements of the owner as time of purchase pre-build. Small changes like different light fixtures, fireplace or no fireplace, moving interior walls a foot this way or that, adding a foot to the width or length or both, adding a third car garage, etc...is what makes every house a custom job.

But they all come from the same components, electrical systems are electrical systems, etc.

In the neighborhoods in question, yes, they WERE largely built on speculation. In fact, in Alaska, that's pretty normative post-1975.

The duplex my parents bought in 1975 was identical in every detail save one to every other duplex on the block - one wall was removed. Since I was the paperboy, I was in all the livingrooms monthly for about 7 months. The only differences were carpet color, counter color, and appliance color And only my Parents' was different in carpet and counters! And it cost them an extra few thousand.

I'm used to neighborhoods where, largely, a developer buys a plot of land, builds 20 cookie-cutter homes to a plan he's used elsewhere (often for a much reduced Architecht's fee), sells them, builds the next 20 to the same plan, and so on. About 1 in 20 is sold prior to construction being completed, and is to one of the plans with minor customizations (appliances, colors of walls, floor treatments, cabinets, and counters). Which sounds very like "standard designs"...

And, having subbed in about 50 different Anchorage elementary schools, 8 of 9 high schools, the 7-12 and the K12, there are a dozen with the same plan as the one I attended, over a dozen with the same superplan as the first one I worked in long term - none built all 6 wings, but the wiring and plumbing to add them is already in place... In all, I've seen 5 "superplans" which were built from, and it's instantly clear you've been in the plan before when you get to another on the same plan. And there are a handful of bespoke plans - Fairview comes to mind. As do East High, West High, and Bartlett High. People think denali was, but it isn't - they just removed all the interior walls (leaving pillars) in the same plan as half of Lake Otis/Mountain View/Roger's Park/Oceanview...

Modern new construction tends to be standard plans, as a cost savings measure. I'm seeing it in Oregon, too. Newer neighborhoods all built to one plan. 100 unit apartment complexes, all built to one super-plan as 4-plexes or 6 plexes. Industrialized construction.

 

[pendragonman]

In the neighborhoods in question, yes, they WERE largely built on speculation. In fact, in Alaska, that's pretty normative post-1975.

The duplex my parents bought in 1975 was identical in every detail save one to every other duplex on the block - one wall was removed. Since I was the paperboy, I was in all the livingrooms monthly for about 7 months. The only differences were carpet color, counter color, and appliance color And only my Parents' was different in carpet and counters! And it cost them an extra few thousand.

I'm used to neighborhoods where, largely, a developer buys a plot of land, builds 20 cookie-cutter homes to a plan he's used elsewhere (often for a much reduced Architecht's fee), sells them, builds the next 20 to the same plan, and so on. About 1 in 20 is sold prior to construction being completed, and is to one of the plans with minor customizations (appliances, colors of walls, floor treatments, cabinets, and counters). Which sounds very like "standard designs"...

And, having subbed in about 50 different Anchorage elementary schools, 8 of 9 high schools, the 7-12 and the K12, there are a dozen with the same plan as the one I attended, over a dozen with the same superplan as the first one I worked in long term - none built all 6 wings, but the wiring and plumbing to add them is already in place... In all, I've seen 5 "superplans" which were built from, and it's instantly clear you've been in the plan before when you get to another on the same plan. And there are a handful of bespoke plans - Fairview comes to mind. As do East High, West High, and Bartlett High. People think denali was, but it isn't - they just removed all the interior walls (leaving pillars) in the same plan as half of Lake Otis/Mountain View/Roger's Park/Oceanview...

Modern new construction tends to be standard plans, as a cost savings measure. I'm seeing it in Oregon, too. Newer neighborhoods all built to one plan. 100 unit apartment complexes, all built to one super-plan as 4-plexes or 6 plexes. Industrialized construction.

Well, it isn't that way everywhere for sure. Around here, we bought our new (10 years ago) construction home as part of a 200 home subdivision. All of the homes but 10 (fifteen if you include the model homes) were sold and customized as I outlined. We chose to finish the basement, no fireplace, and picked a unified theme thruout for our lighting system (which we found was different than how the rest did it from the electricians). I was out here every day speaking with the various crews every step of the way.

There were five models (as I said above) but the vast majority of the 200 homes are of the three smaller types and only a handful of the two larger (3 and 4 bedroom respectively) types.

And you are correct even here about multifamily buildings. Duplexes tend to be very standardized with even fewer choices available for personalization. In an area that 10 years ago was being reserved for retail space, there are another 200 units going in (100 duplex buildings) and they will be very cookie cutter.