Adding Special Duty to CT

[Supplement Four]

I've never supposed that Imperial combat troops would be equipped with anything other than TL15 equipment. Not necessarily battledress, because battledress is pricey, but the marines are an elite force, so I don't reject the notion either.

The article would have me believe that ship's troops--Imperial Marines--would be equipped in BattleDress and FGMP's. They need Vacc Suits for boarding actions, I can see that, so I'm OK with BattleDress, but the FGMP's? I don't think so.

But please note that my original post was meant as a pleasantry.

Of course, Hans! I always enjoy your posts, even when we don't agree!

 

[McPerth]

The article would have me believe that ship's troops--Imperial Marines--would be equipped in BattleDress and FGMP's. They need Vacc Suits for boarding actions, I can see that, so I'm OK with BattleDress, but the FGMP's? I don't think so.

Here I agree, at least for Ship's troops. If you want to capture (or defend) anything else than lots of junk, I guess you better use less destructive weaponry. That's why I believe SMGs, etc would still be used in Traveller, as chemical propelled rounds can be made of less destructive materials.

Fo dirtside opperations, though, I believe the FGMP would be their main weapon, as described, giving them enormeous fireposer with the need of too much support (and if they need it, ortillery is just ready).

 

[Supplement Four]

Here I agree, at least for Ship's troops. If you want to capture (or defend) anything else than lots of junk, I guess you better use less destructive weaponry. That's why I believe SMGs, etc would still be used in Traveller, as chemical propelled rounds ca nbe made of less destructive materials.

Accelerator Rifles.

Fo dirtside opperations, though, I believe the FGMP would be their main weapon, as described, giving them enormeous fireposer with the need of too much support (and if they need it, ortillery is just ready).

Even then, don't FGMP's explode in a radius? I've never used them in a game before. These weapons have always seemed to me to be the heavy weapon in a squad, where the rest of the squad is using something like a Gauss Rifle.

 

[McPerth]

Accelerator Rifles.

I guess it would depend on the mision and situation expected. See that accelerator rifles are not for too close spaces (at close and short distances they are quite ineffective), as the projectile needs some space to accelerate, while SMGs are ideal for such close quarters as you can find in most inside ship combat.

Even then, don't FGMP's explode in a radius? I've never used them in a game before. These weapons have always seemed to me to be the heavy weapon in a squad, where the rest of the squad is using something like a Gauss Rifle.

In other versions of Traveller, that's true, but in CT they are not explosive. Even so, according to CT:LBB4 page 45, the gaussrifle is at TL15 the standard weapon for non powered units, but also says that most infantry is now equiped with BD and FGMP 15, so I asume those non-powered units are support and second line units.

 

[rancke]

The article would have me believe that ship's troops--Imperial Marines--would be equipped in BattleDress and FGMP's. They need Vacc Suits for boarding actions, I can see that, so I'm OK with BattleDress, but the FGMP's? I don't think so.

I'd interpret 'equipped with' to mean that the Corps has bought and issued battledresses to all marines, but that it depends on the mission whether they're actually wearing them at any particular time.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Imperial Marines in other products besides JTAS 12...

M2 - Beltstrike - character card. Skills: "Cutlass-1, Revolver-2, Tactics-2, Vacc Suit-1. Rifle-2, Grav Vehicle-1, Brawling-1. Electronics-1." Explicitly Imperial Marine.

JTAS 13 - Casual Encounter - identified as ex-Imperial Marine, now merc.
Skills: "Combat Rifle-4, Instruction-3, Gunnery-2, RAM Grenade Launcher-2, Vacc Suit-2, Brawling-2, Forward Observer-1, Tactics-1, Zero-G Combat-1, Mechanical-1, Combat Engineering-1, Medic-1, Demolitions-1, Recon-1."

Note the weapons list - no evidence of High Energy Weapons - but LOADS of slug-throwers. Both Postdate JTAS 12, both put the lie to "Armed with Fusion Guns", as does common sense.

The T20 Gateway book notes that not all Marine units are capable of drops, and notes both Fusion and Gauss as the standard weapons. (p 45)

Also in Gateway: Horace Bertran, former Imperial Marine. He lacks the Armor Proficience (Battle Dress) Feat, which is required for Battle Dress. There is no provision for loss of talents in T20. Leo Farnold also lacks AP (BD).

TA1 - Personal Weapons of Chartered Space (T20 & CT) notes that Gauss Pistols are the standard sidearm of Imperial Marine officers.

TA4 - 76 Gunmen. None of the 4 Imperial Marine templates have Battle Dress proficiency.

TA5 - Objects of the Mind - an active duty squad of Marines in Cloth armor - also lacking the AP (BD) feat.

I'm not looking at TNE, T4, nor T5 sources.

We have 4 individual characters lacking the skills for Loren's weapon mix - and lacking the skill needed to even use it unskilled (which requires BD 1 under CT, and AP (BD) under T20, despite the CGen allowing for it. And then the "template" T20 NPC's also lack the BD proficiency.

The preponderance is that Loren's JTAS 12 article was ignored.

 

[rancke]

The preponderance is that Loren's JTAS 12 article was ignored.

Ignoring/being ignorant of what previously published material says is quite common in Traveller.

The 'forgotten skill' explanation works perfectly well even if there is no explicit game mechanism for forgetting skills.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Ignoring/being ignorant of what previously published material says is quite common in Traveller.


Hans

Neither Hunter nor MJD were ignorant of Loren's article - the T20 materials are clearly rejection of it, and are setting canon. (In part my fault - I cited for them multiple contradictions of JTAS12 in DGP materials, as well. But my DGP stuff is mostly packed.)

Beltstrike was J Andrew Keith and John Harshman - it's doubtful they wouldn't know it.

And that's before noting the marines in AHL don't all wear Battledress, and only half the mix carry FGMP's. (and using them aboard is STUPID!) 18/30 are in combat armor, while the other 12 are in battle dress. Given the bulk of both, it's unlikely that you'd double issue - again, an apparent contradiction of Loren's article.

And, when one looks at a canon - rulebooks and game components generally trump magazine articles.

And then there's the expense argument. A suit of BD is ~MCr1 bare bones, and ~ MCr2.5 for the hopped up suits in TD. The FGMP 14 is KCr100.
The Combat and Gauss Rifle is KCr20+KCr3.5. By swapping out 1 suit as described in JTAS 12 (MCr1.5+) one can field 4+ CA+GR suits with the same Camo options.

In other words - it appears GDW didn't follow Loren's article in the details. QLI was a definite rejection of the absolutism and equipment mix. DGP, not so certain, but definitely not "every marine is a BD trooper" - in fact, the field uniform armor is a CES in the TD article on Earth Occupation Forces, who are imperial Marines. (BD troopers are not uncommon.)

 

[aramis]

Accelerator Rifles.





Even then, don't FGMP's explode in a radius? I've never used them in a game before. These weapons have always seemed to me to be the heavy weapon in a squad, where the rest of the squad is using something like a Gauss Rifle.

Explode? no. Splash? yes. Danger space is 4.5m wide under MT.
Under CT, they have no special rules except the recoil. (Firing a PGMP-13 or FGMP-14 without suit has a chance of doing up to 2d damage to dex.)
Under TNE, they splash multiple locations and adjacent targets.

They're ugly under every edition - different kinds of ugly by system, but ugly none the less.

 

[mike wightman]

Imperial Marines in other products besides JTAS 12...


The preponderance is that Loren's JTAS 12 article was ignored.

Then there is the IM platoon in A:1 Kinunir which pre-dates Loren's article.

 

[rancke]

Neither Hunter nor MJD were ignorant of Loren's article - the T20 materials are clearly rejection of it, and are setting canon.

I said ignoring slash being ignorant.

And that's before noting the marines in AHL don't all wear Battledress, and only half the mix carry FGMP's. (and using them aboard is STUPID!) 18/30 are in combat armor, while the other 12 are in battle dress. Given the bulk of both, it's unlikely that you'd double issue - again, an apparent contradiction of Loren's article.

But that doesn't mean that the Imperial Marines couldn't train all their marines to wear BD.

And then there's the expense argument. A suit of BD is ~MCr1 bare bones, and ~ MCr2.5 for the hopped up suits in TD. The FGMP 14 is KCr100.
The Combat and Gauss Rifle is KCr20+KCr3.5. By swapping out 1 suit as described in JTAS 12 (MCr1.5+) one can field 4+ CA+GR suits with the same Camo options.

But aren't you the one who argues that the supply of people able to withstand the stress of shipboard life is limited? Marines would have to come out of the same supply, so perhaps the Imperium just doesn't have four time as many marines to put into combat armor. Or perhaps the limitation is transportation. A ship capable of carrying only 200 marines might be better off with 200 marines in BD than 200 marines in CA and 600 marines stuck on some planet, don't you think?

In other words - it appears GDW didn't follow Loren's article in the details. QLI was a definite rejection of the absolutism and equipment mix. DGP, not so certain, but definitely not "every marine is a BD trooper" - in fact, the field uniform armor is a CES in the TD article on Earth Occupation Forces, who are imperial Marines. (BD troopers are not uncommon.)

"Every member of the <unit> is equipped with a dress uniform" doesn't mean they wear dress uniform all the time.

Just for the record: I'm not wedded to the "every Imperial marine has a battledress" concept. This subthread started as a joke and I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here.

Personally, I'd go with the compromise (which means contradicting BOTH versions of canon ) that all Imperial line marines (but not necessarily other kinds of marines) have BD training but aren't all equipped with BD on all missions. And all the canonical ex-Imperial marines seemingly without BD skill actually have BD-0; it just isn't listed, as so many level 0 skills are not listed.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Then there is the IM platoon in A:1 Kinunir which pre-dates Loren's article.

I explain that by saying that the Luuru is a Duchy of Regina Navy vessel with DoR Marine Corps marines aboard.


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

DGP, not so certain, but definitely not "every marine is a BD trooper" - in fact, the field uniform armor is a CES in the TD article on Earth Occupation Forces, who are imperial Marines. (BD troopers are not uncommon.)

Since I was just re-reading this article yesterday (by coincidence):

In the article, the Imperial Earth Occupation Forces are dressed in CES-field uniforms for political reasons: by not having the Imperial Marines running around in Battledress constantly, the hope is that the Imperial presence is perceived as less threatening in order to soften any political tensions that might otherwise arise.

It makes the point that these CES-equipped forces are ready to backed-up at a moment's notice by full BD-equipped units should the need arise.

The article makes the explicit point that for Imperial Marines, the CES-dress is completely archaic.

 

[SpaceBadger]

I realize that y'all are hashing the Marine/BD issues out mainly on precedent from publications and articles, but just figured I'd throw my IMTU view into the mix.

Marines IMTU are included aboard almost every Navy vessel of any size. Smaller non-combat vessels would not have any, but even smaller patrol vessels might have a squad aboard if needed for boarding inspections, as in doing blockade work (similar but different to customs inspections).

As IRL they brag that every Marine is a Combat Rifleman, so it is IMTU. Every Marine is trained in Combat Rifleman, VaccSuit, Zero-G, and Battledress. They may or may not be trained in Plasma/Fusion weapons, unless assigned to a unit where those are issued, in which case they get the training.

Standard Marine equipment is Combat Armor with Gauss Rifles, with Plasma/Fusion as a squad support weapon. Assault groups expecting lots of hard targets and not concerned with damage to the combat environment get Battledress and a mix of Gauss Rifles and Plasma/Fusion guns.

Not all Marines are trained as Jump Troops. When Marines are used as Jump Troops, they all wear Battledress and are likely equipped as an Assault group.

For boarding actions, most likely Combat Armor, unless this particular unit is usually deployed as Jump Troops in which case they will have their Battledress. Armament will be mostly Gauss Rifles, with Plasma/Fusion as squad support. IMTU there is a fragmentation gauss round that shatters into splinters on impact (treated as HE round). Useful against soft targets and for not damaging important machinery in the ship you are trying to capture.

Marines don't like the frag rounds so much, because in their experience they may get surprised by someone in armor against which the frag rounds are fairly useless, so generally at least one or two Marines in each squad will be loaded with standard gauss rounds to take out the armored guys and give their squadmates a chance to switch out magazines.

So there you have it, IMTU, Marine contingents on almost all Navy ships, trained as the go-to guys for vacuum, Zero-G, and hostile environment combat, plus an elite trained as jump troops. Weapons carried depends on mission goals and expected resistance.

 

[Baron]

IMO, arguing canon like this is kind of fruitless. Authors forget, are ignorant of, or disagree with prior writings. Even original authors have the annoying habit of changing their minds. Things get overlooked or aren't considered in earlier (and later) publications. I wouldn't apply the word 'canon' to much, other than things that get repeatedly published explicitly and don't have contradictory publication. Is it really worth it? As far as I'm concerned, "IMTU" pretty much covers every single game, doesn't it? And every single GM? Say rather, "It makes sense to me for it to work like this," and let it go...

 

[Supplement Four]

Imperial Marines in other products besides JTAS 12...

Let's not forget Supplement 13 - Veterans. Not a lot of BattleDress or FGMPs, even among the TL 15 crowd.

The preponderance is that Loren's JTAS 12 article was ignored.

Like much of JTAS, maybe it's just not considered canonical. I agree, there are bits of canon in JTAS, but a lot of it is just Ref's talking about House Rules, much like what we do now on this very forum.

Explode? no. Splash? yes. Danger space is 4.5m wide under MT.

That's what I'm remembering. As I said before, I've never used them in a game. They're, as you say, too ugly. They are military weapons that I usually make very, very hard for players to obtain in a game.





@Hans

I am re-evaluating my stance on the core Marine reflecting only Imperial Marine (and I've held that stance for decades). This thread has convinced me that the career can certainly be Imperial Marines, but it is also generic enough to create other types of marines as well.

My new stance: It's generic, catch-all, marine that can be whatever you want it to be.

 

[BlackBat242]

But that doesn't mean that the Imperial Marines couldn't train all their marines to wear BD.

"Every member of the <unit> is equipped with a dress uniform" doesn't mean they wear dress uniform all the time.

Personally, I'd go with the compromise (which means contradicting BOTH versions of canon ) that all Imperial line marines (but not necessarily other kinds of marines) have BD training but aren't all equipped with BD on all missions. And all the canonical ex-Imperial marines seemingly without BD skill actually have BD-0; it just isn't listed, as so many level 0 skills are not listed.


Hans

In USMC basic training in the 1980s (specifically June-August 1981) every recruit received "familiarization" in the M2 .50BMG, the M40 40mm grenade launcher, helicopter/infantry fighting vehicle combat embarkation/combat debarkation, and so on.

In the late 1980s training was modified so that following basic all Marines head to the School of Infantry to attend the 22-day Marine Combat Training (MCT) course* - even aviation maintainers, supply clerks, and administrative specialists.

There they receive training in a lot of equipment that they will never again be issued (or even touch) for the rest of their careers... "just in case".


I treat BD training as following this model - all Marines receive initial familiarization training with BD (hence the Vacc-Suit skill of many) but most do not receive full qualification training (hence no BD skill).

As for equipment load-outs aboard ship - there would always be spare sets of BD, and indeed there would be enough extra to make up at least a squad if not a platoon, depending on the size of the Marine complement aboard, in order to allow for emergency situations.

After all, when a Baron or such unexpectedly wants to tour the ship, or the ship finds itself having to make a diplomatic call somewhere, the Marines in the ceremonial "Honor Guard" aren't expected to have to fight in their nice pretty BD - they just have to be able to keep proper formation and march in a smart manner.



* see the last paragraph on page 4 here: http://usmilitary.about.com/od/marinejoin/a/marinebasic2_4.htm

 

[Carlobrand]

On a practical note:

A battalion of Marines on the pattern of Spinward Marches Campaign is 506 officers and men, 44 12-person APCs, 13 tanks, 4 artillery APCs mounting MRLs, 4 artillery APCs mounting drone missile launchers. Now, that's off to begin with because there's no maintenance or support; we'll come to that.

Each vehicle requires 5 maintenance points plus another 20 for weapons plus 90ish for electronics; there's a lot of standard stuff on the Marine APC and I tend to assume each soldier carries a commo unit and at least one night-vision device. The battalion's vehicles draw around 7500 maintenance points: 150 men plus equipment and vehicles to transport them. The battalion needs a maintenance company, but we'll assume they accidentally got left off the chart.

Adding battledress to each of the 10 infantrymen in the APC means an additional 30 maintenance points per APC, increases maintenance load battalion wide, means another 27 maintenance workers for the battalion. The chief gain for that is that each man can carry more - not a big bonus when they're APC-mounted - can carry a shoulder-cannon instead of a laser that punches infantry armor almost as well, and can lift boulders. For me, combat-armored laser rifles with a battle-dressed FGMP in squad support is just as effective and means fewer men sitting back at HQ instead of up on the front lines.

And then there's cost: the Striker APC's running 5.6 million with all those lovely extras. 10 men in battledress with FGMPs is MCr1.05 each, versus 96 thousand credits for the combat armor and laser rifle. In other words, I can buy almost two and a half APCs with combat-armored laser-rifles for the price of one with battle-dressed FGMPs, and the chief disadvantage of the men with lasers is they can't toss around boulders. The combat armor serves fine for personal protection in hostile atmospheres (53.C.3.a); they can't stay inside a burning building, but that's not a serious handicap.

(Me, I'm a big fan of chameleoned combat environment suits and gauss rifles with RAM rifle grenades for the regular army joes, but they don't have to serve on ships that could lose their atmosphere.)

The guy in the fancy suit drops quite nicely if you hit him with a RAM grenade; a TL13 laser offers a bit under a 1/3 chance of a light wound versus his certain-kill shot, but that's not much of an edge for a trooper that costs 10 times as much as the other guy - a light wound will stop a Striker regular from advancing even if it doesn't take him out of the fight. The guy really needs to be veteran or elite to take full advantage of that edge and, even then, cost-benefit still favors fielding more combat-dressed troopers over fewer battle-dressed troopers. His chief advantage is the ability to defeat bunkers and light armor: you need 20 inches of reinforced concrete before it even starts doing you any good, twice that thickness if you want a reasonable chance of stopping the blasts, but one guy in the squad is enough for that advantage to pay off. Mercenary and MT aren't any better: the fancy suits and big guns are nice for special ops but they don't bring enough to justify the cost on a battalion-wide basis. GURPS I think is different, but I don't know it real well.

Battledress and FGMP is fine for an elite small-unit operation and in the squad support role, but it's impractical for a battalion-size unit. Meaning no disrespect, but I think folk got charmed by the dramatic appeal and didn't give it a critical look.

I explain that by saying that the Luuru is a Duchy of Regina Navy vessel with DoR Marine Corps marines aboard. ...

Makes them members of the 4518th, no? Duke's own Huscarles!

 

[McPerth]

Personally, I'd go with the compromise (which means contradicting BOTH versions of canon ) that all Imperial line marines (but not necessarily other kinds of marines) have BD training but aren't all equipped with BD on all missions. And all the canonical ex-Imperial marines seemingly without BD skill actually have BD-0; it just isn't listed, as so many level 0 skills are not listed.

When refreeing, I've always given several 0 level skills to most players depending on their former careers. As a rule of thumb, those skills were those available in the MOS table (if advanced Chargen was allowed for their careers) or those I thought they should be trained on in other cases (e.g. vacc suit for any career that included active shipboard duty). See that this gave all marines from a TL12+ BD 0 as a skill (in fact, I applied only to TL13+, as this is the TL for a BD. For TL12 Marines I exchanged it for VaccSuit).

Also as part of the same home rules, I exchanged the VaccSuit skill for BD for the training in the Comando School if the TL of the army was 13+ (I believe the Comandos will be equiped with the best equipement available).

See that this is the approach MgT took years latter for basic training, and in MgT all marines have BD 0 as a result of this

@Hans

I am re-evaluating my stance on the core Marine reflecting only Imperial Marine (and I've held that stance for decades). This thread has convinced me that the career can certainly be Imperial Marines, but it is also generic enough to create other types of marines as well.

My new stance: It's generic, catch-all, marine that can be whatever you want it to be.

IMHO, the basic rule may be discussed, but in advanced CharGen the fact there are provisions for marines being under TL 15 (they have a +1 to the MOS skills table if TL 12+, hinting that their TL may be lower) makes clear that not only Imperial Mariens are created by them, but also other Marines (colonial or planetary).


And about Basic CharGen, remember in LBB1 BD skill did not exist, and Vacc Suit skill was used for using a BD.

 

[aramis]

Battledress skill existed by 1981 - but was never backported to the Bk1 marine with the 1981 revision (which was a significant revision). It probably should have been - especially since Loren's article was cotemporous with said revision.

Note also: Loren's claim is that battledress is the standard equipment - but later CT sources usually show combat armor (which has similar protection value, but no augmentation) rather than the much more expensive BD. But that's not the big issue.

Loren's article also claims that the standard infantry sidearm is the KCr100 FGMP-14 - a weapon which requires both Battledress Skill AND high-energy weapons skill. Further, it's a big, sloppy weapon under Striker and AHL. Further still, the Gauss Rifle and Gauss Pistol are the standard TL13+ military sidearms in other sources, and considerably lower cost.

Chameleon Combat Armor with vision enhancement, radio, and a gauss rifle is far less expensive than battledress with the same enhancements and an FGMP-14. And requires only retconning a little read magazine article, rather than published rulebooks.