Advice Sought -- Running the Traveller Adventure

[Ulsyus]

1) I believe that a fundamental aspect of intelligence is the ability to overcome instinctual behavior. Humans certainly do it.

2) Charisma isn't a magic wand that casts a spell of obedience on another Vargr. If the referee believes it is, I certainly wouldn't want to play a Vargr in his campaign.

3) Gvouzdon's charisma is not necessarily higher than out hypothetical Vargr PC's charisma. Even if it is, situational modifiers would apply. (e.g. I don't like being bullied, I don't like commiting grand theft, my human friends agree with me).

4) Gvouzdon isn't the Vargr PC's alpha. At best he's some other pack's alpha. (There's another situational modifier: My own alpha don't want me to cause trouble for the pack and him).

Hans

Hans makes some good points. Instinct is exactly that, but intelligence allows us to question it and compare it as a course of action against other constraints and limitations. The instinct of a young man may be to fly into a rage when insulted and threatened out at the pub, but his reason may overcome that and prevent him and others from being injured and subject to long-term legal ramifications.

A Vargr, particularly a PC (those irascible individuals who buck social norms and trends) could be given the opportunity to overcome his instinctive reactions, but this could be an opportunity to role-play, with task tests affected by the roleplaying. So his instinct is to knuckle-under, but modifiers to this are based on a number of other factors.

 

[aramis]

Hans makes some good points. Instinct is exactly that, but intelligence allows us to question it and compare it as a course of action against other constraints and limitations. The instinct of a young man may be to fly into a rage when insulted and threatened out at the pub, but his reason may overcome that and prevent him and others from being injured and subject to long-term legal ramifications.

A Vargr, particularly a PC (those irascible individuals who buck social norms and trends) could be given the opportunity to overcome his instinctive reactions, but this could be an opportunity to role-play, with task tests affected by the roleplaying. So his instinct is to knuckle-under, but modifiers to this are based on a number of other factors.

The problem is that, on a species level, we don't rise above our instincts. It's not that we lack them, either... It's a flawed (fatally so) definition for intelligence. We can train almost all mammals out of instinctual behaviors - making the ability to overcome instinct meaningless in the search for a functional definition of sentience, unless one wants to include all mammals.

In mammals, conditioned response consistently can overcome instinctive behavior, but conditioned response is what the mechanics are designed to replicate, anyway... as much of culture is conditioned response (tho' a small portion is apparently instinctual... but don't tell that to the ex-sociology-adjunct-professor I got fired from UAA for claiming that humans have no instinct...).

As for Hans' question about the die rolls - 11+ pretty much requires one cooperate. 9+ is almost assured to get cooperation, at least to the level of assisting without actually entering; a 12+ reaction is enthusiastic cooperation. Gvoudzon has a minimum +3 on the roll, before Charisma. His Charisma of 6 is an issue, but he's got better than 50% odds with a Charisma 7 of securing cooperation without infighting. Note that, if he wins in an infighting situation, and is of lesser charisma, he swaps charisma with them.

But also remember - if the PC loses the infighting, he's surrendered. He's in... shamed into it, possibly looking for an "I told you so!" moment...

This doesn't preclude other PC's from trying to talk them out of it (bloody hard, unless they're also Vargr)... I had one party with 3 Vargr PC's (and 4 non-Vargr)... it resulted in 4 PC's coercing 3 PC's into the job.

Of course, the easiest way to make it happen is to start the campaign in media res rapina ... "Somehow, that Crazy vargr got you to agree to break into the museum, to recover his brooch... as you look at the building..."

 

[whulorigan]

4) Gvouzdon isn't the Vargr PC's alpha. At best he's some other pack's alpha. (There's another situational modifier: My own alpha don't want me to cause trouble for the pack and him).

As for Hans' question about the die rolls - 11+ pretty much requires one cooperate. 9+ is almost assured to get cooperation, at least to the level of assisting without actually entering; a 12+ reaction is enthusiastic cooperation. Gvoudzon has a minimum +3 on the roll, before Charisma. His Charisma of 6 is an issue, but he's got better than 50% odds with a Charisma 7 of securing cooperation without infighting. Note that, if he wins in an infighting situation, and is of lesser charisma, he swaps charisma with them.

But also remember - if the PC loses the infighting, he's surrendered. He's in... shamed into it, possibly looking for an "I told you so!" moment...

I think Hans's point above needs to be considered: If we use "wolves" as a template to understanding Vargr behavior, a wolf follows the Alpha of his pack. He does not follow a dominant wolf that just "wanders in" to his pack, or a wolf from another pack. Wolves from other packs that try to assert their dominance generally lead to death-fights between the packs corporately.

The key word in the above statement is "infighting". Infighting implies fighting within the pack. Interlopers do not "infight".

Among Vargr, the charisma dynamic certainly would still apply individually between Vargr in general due to racial psychology, but behavior and outcomes would also be related to the internal dynamics of any given Vargr's perceived "local" pack dynamics relative to the "outsider", as well as cultural and "rational" considerations.

In the material that I have read on Vargr, the impression I get is that Vargr society revolves around the "state" or "community" as the "super-pack", with sub-packs within that social construct (whether those sub-packs are municipalities, or combat units, or co-workers, etc.). In each of those cases, a "new" Vargr who is entering the pack must find his position within the pack over time through challenges and responses, and eventually become integrated into the new pack-structure in a particular "place" in the pack-hierarchy. That is a process that takes time and is done in the context of the pack/sub-pack as a whole.

Playing a Vargr as a simple set of reaction-roll mechanics seems to me to be just as unrealistic as playing one as a human in a Vargr-suit (and neither one is good roleplaying). Good roleplaying would have the player of the Vargr character consciously aware of the differences in psychology between Humans and Vargr/wolves, utilizing both racial psychology and human rational decision making behavior as complementary templates (perhaps supplemented by a die-roll when behavior is uncertain or "on the fence").

I don't think that a Vargr would simply follow some "strange Vargr" that he just bumped into simply on the basis of Charisma-dynamics alone. The PC Vargr may feel an emotional compulsion toward the NPC Vargr, but I would still think the NPC Vargr would need to make his case in a way that would make sense to the PC Vargr (taking into account racial psychology, of course).

 

[Lycanorukke]

I don't think that a Vargr would simply follow some "strange Vargr" that he just bumped into simply on the basis of Charisma-dynamics alone. The PC Vargr may feel an emotional compulsion toward the NPC Vargr, but I would still think the NPC Vargr would need to make his case in a way that would make sense to the PC Vargr (taking into account racial psychology, of course).

This is the bit I think is important. What benefit is the other Vargr (in this case Gvouzdon) offering if the subordinate follows? The Vargr pack mentality as described in the books is based on the pretty flawed understanding of wolf pack dynamics of the time, so a better example might be a historical pirate band. A strong leader is required to keep the peace and to organise, but that alone isn't enough for the crew to put their lives on the line. There has to be a promise of booze, booty, and bling - and that promise followed through or the crew leaves or mutinys.

If Gvouzdon tried to dominate the PC to obey and no sweetners were offered, the PC would be right to laugh (bark?) in his face. At the very least you would have to put something in the museum worth the PC's time in order for them to be insterested. Offer them a better deal than they already have and a reasonable chance of getting it and a Vargr will switch sides in a nanosecond with no regrets or apologies, but screw them over and they'll leave just as fast.

The other thing not mentioned is that you have a few large pink skinned apes nearby who may not like some strange vargr roughing up their friend. If he starts swinging to enforce his charisma, Gvouzdon is likely to find himself stuffed in the nearest trash can with a note "To the Vemene with love" written on the side.

And lastly - while the PC is a vargr, the player is not. While they may be able to RP a vargr to the hilt, leashing the player to the plot train is not a good thing. The moment the GM starts throwing 'GM fiat' around willy nilly the PC's will either push back (hard) or leave.

 

[gregcaires]

Is there anything else worth stealing in the museum (real or imagined, like a treasure map on the back of the priceless imperial warrant...uh, wait, what?) that Gvoudzon could approach the PCs about stealing and then he nips off and steals the broach and then the simple heist becomes a run for your lives affair?

 

[aramis]

Is there anything else worth stealing in the museum (real or imagined, like a treasure map on the back of the priceless imperial warrant...uh, wait, what?) that Gvoudzon could approach the PCs about stealing and then he nips off and steals the broach and then the simple heist becomes a run for your lives affair?

Plenty.

 

[rancke]

Is there anything else worth stealing in the museum (real or imagined, like a treasure map on the back of the priceless imperial warrant...uh, wait, what?) that Gvoudzon could approach the PCs about stealing...

Bound to be. But some players will just not want to risk it.

... and then he nips off and steals the broach and then the simple heist becomes a run for your lives affair?

Followed by the PCs refusing to have anything to do with Gvouzdon from then on.

How's this: The PCs befriend Gvouzdon but there's nothing they can do for him in regards to the broach, alas. That night the museum is broken into and a sackful of small precious objects are stolen, including the objects in the display case where the broach was. Gvouzdon remembers that the broach has an integral transponder (something he'd either forgotten or failed to explain properly in his argument with the museum puke (or he did mention it and the museum puke told him "So sue us")). Have an adventure where the PCs use this to track down the thieves and recover the loot. Someone with a sense of justice admit that this seems like good evidence that the broach does belong to Gvouzdon. The museum people quickly make the broach part of the reward.


Hans

 

[Vargas]

How's this: The PCs befriend Gvouzdon but there's nothing they can do for him in regards to the broach, alas. That night the museum is broken into and a sackful of small precious objects are stolen . . . Someone with a sense of justice admit that this seems like good evidence that the broach does belong to Gvouzdon. The museum people quickly make the broach part of the reward.

That's a nicely elegant solution to smoothing out the adventure.

 

[Murphy]

One of my players was a wealthy dilettante. He bought the brooch on the auction that was held by the museum on a pawn shop's behalf. Then the party finds itself attacked repeatedly while the local law enforcement is bribed to look another way. They are struggling to defend themselves, and then an armed Vargr appears conveniently to save them. Voila.

The idea isn't mine, I've read it here somewhere, just can't be arsed to look that thread up