The Long Night?

[mike wightman]

1. We know Apple tends to screw us with as cheap as possible components, but we'll assume their Jump Programmes are as simply elegant as it's possible, making the most efficient use of resources.

2. It comes down to a comparison between a technological level seven eighty megahertz sixty four bit manufactured on what, six micrometres?

3. And a technological level eight thirty two bit underclocked RISC processor at four hundred and twelve megahertz, manufactured at probably forty five nanometres?

4. Against the current Twelve model, with CPU Hexa-core (2x3.1 GHz Firestorm + 4x1.8 GHz Icestorm), at I'll assume five nanometres?

Ok, take out your smartphone.

Now use it to solve the precession around the Earth for a satellite in geostationary orbit due to frame dragging.

And I don't mean just google the answer - find an app that solves general relativity equations and enter the parameters.

I will wait for your answer...

 

[vegas]

I keep reading this stuff, that a smart phone can do such and such....

A smartphone can not solve the same problems that a supercomputer is used to solve, and plotting a jump through a hyper dimensional space would most certainly require a supercomputer.

While I agree with you, Mike, the problem is in the rules. CT says a Model-1 computer can compute J-1. A Model-1 is TL 5, pre-1940s technology. So if you go strictly by the book, then calculating J-1 must not be very challenging. That is why I house rule it can be a Model-1, but it has to be TL9 to calc a J-1. In my experience this isn't an issue for players.

2. A slight overclocking of an existing computer, the bis variant, allows you to calculate a jump factor two, at technological level seven.

I don't dispute J-2 is calculable today RAW. It's J-3 that is impossible. If you intended to write that we have Model-2 bis computers today, there I must disagree. I'll believe we are in TL 8 when I have an air/raft parked in my garage and fusion power plants power my house. We are just barely getting solar power to be economical: clearly the world is still TL 7.

 

[mike wightman]

A TL9 model 1 is 1 ton

how big is a TL5 version? I know the table says 1t but is this correct if a TL9 version is 1t and a TL11 version is 0,5kg?

We know that at higher TLs a model 1 is the size of a laptop - so why not use those in ship construction?

Hand Computer (1 1) Cr1000. Provides services of a small computer (equivalent to Model 1) in computing power), plus serves as a computer terminal when linked to a larger computer (such as on board a ship). Weighs 500 grams.

Computer, Hand (TL11): Provides services of a supercomputer (equivalent to Model 1 in computing power), plus serves as a computer terminal when linked to a larger computer (such as on board a ship).

 

[Condottiere]

1. I didn't think anyone would make a challenge on this, but, okay:

Auto-Plotted Jumps

For unknown reasons, automated jumps are prone to an increased risk of misjump. A jump plotted by the automatic systems without the involvement of a sentient astrogator is subject to the same DM-4 as all other fully automated actions. For this reason, if just one skilled crewmembers is carried it is usually an astrogator. A jump plotted in semi-automatic mode by someone without the Astrogator skill but with a basic understanding of the concepts involved suffers DM-2. It is thought that a machine will produce several apparently equal solutions to the same jump plot and cannot distinguish between them but a sentient mind somehow ‘feels’ which one is slightly better than the others. Even someone who is not a trained astrogator can do this to some extent and if one is available they can oversee the plot. Their Astrogator skill applies in this case and the DM-2 is not suffered.

Attempting to send a ship through jumpspace without people on board enormously increases the risk of misjump, for reasons unknown. In addition to the DM-4 for the autoplot, a vessel suffers an additional DM-4 if there are no conscious minds aboard. Low berth passengers are by definition not conscious and experiments with highly intelligent but non-sentient minds have produced wildly differing results.

pages 236-7 ALIENS OF CHARTED SPACE VOLUME 2


2. Just because you can user older hardware to process newer programmes, doesn't mean that those programmes are available at that level of technology, for whatever reason, canon or otherwise, the game provides.

3. Jump control one is listed at technological level nine, and jump control two at eleven.

4. However, for prototype jump drives, and especially early variants, you couldn't use them at lower technological levels, if the programmes used to activate them weren't available then, and of course, the requisite computers.

5. We could assume that these would be early prototype versions of these programmes, for what could be referred to as alpha and beta testing.

6. The complexity of a jump control one programme appears to be the same as fire control one, both available at technological level nine and requiring the same bandwidth.

 

[whartung]

Now use it to solve the precession around the Earth for a satellite in geostationary orbit due to frame dragging.

And I don't mean just google the answer - find an app that solves general relativity equations and enter the parameters.

Now you're talking about availability, not capability.

This may well be possible on a smart phone, but there's no demand for such software on the smart phone to do such a task.

Maybe it is impractical on a smart phone, I have no idea.

I don't know what all the greek variables mean, but the math presented in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame-dragging seems straightforward.

 

[vegas]

More importantly, whether it is literally an iphone that can do the job is a red herring. For the sake of argument, grant Mike that we need a laptop. So what? We are getting caught up in the rhetorical flourish and missing the point which still stands that RAW jump-1 is a TL 5 computer problem, ergo its not that complicated.

But a lot of these critiques of traveller computers dissipate if we just assume jump math is complicated and only TL 9+ devices can do this undefined calculations with new undefined computing technologies.

A TL9 model 1 is 1 ton....We know that at higher TLs a model 1 is the size of a laptop - so why not use those in ship construction?

I guess this is directed at me? the IMTU answer is that ship computers are quantum computers required to perform jump space simulations - simulations because the math is so complex it can't be solved closed form but only approximated. Ship computer volume also includes all the ECM/ECCM hw, human operating space, 3x redundant systems, dedicated backup power and environment control, spares, work bench, blah blah blah to fill it up.

 

[Condottiere]

And since we're quoting:

Computer Cores

Most capital ships and certain other vessels have multiple distributed computer networks spread throughout their decks, but always include a central computer core that controls the ship’s jump drive. These are extremely powerful computing systems with massive amounts of processing power available.

Processing TL Cost
Core/40 9 MCr45
...

The Processing score for a computer core is in addition to the processing power needed for Jump Control programs, and all Jump Control software is included in the price of the core. Other ship software must be added at extra cost as normal.

Which sort of trivializes jump control programmes computer processing powers, since I'll assume the technological nine model can easily deal with jump control six, though the textual implications are it automatically would know it, or at least, be included in any update.

 

[coliver988]

Going to dip my toes in here a bit as the computer conundrum is always interesting.

Say that the TLB Model 1 is a laptop sized, and has all the capacity of the 1dTon Model 1. I am just thinking about the cooling and raw throughput issues. It may be that laptop Model 1 has all the same programs as our 1 dTon friend, but to calculate the jump model would either take several months or require you to plop your laptop in some liquid nitrogen to keep cool as it overclocks amazingly well to be able to get you a jump model in time for the actual jump.

(there's an old story that we could predict 100% what the weather would be like in a week. It would just take us a year to calculate all the variables. May no longer be true but I think possibly applicable to this discussion)

Now if the laptop Model1 performs at the same processing speed and raw power and throughput, okay then. But my experience with our TL7 (8?) computers is that a laptop gives up some things for the form factor. While not quite as true as it used to be, and possibly no longer true with a 2 TL jump, it is something to think about.

(and takes my toe back out of the water. the computer conundrum is always fun and will never get answered happily for everyone. I am, BTW, a proponent of the big computers are okay opinion, but more than willing to listen to and accept other ideas even if they don't end up in my game. As that is my game )

 

[mike wightman]

1. I didn't think anyone would make a challenge on this, but, okay:

Auto-Plotted Jumps

For unknown reasons, automated jumps are prone to an increased risk of misjump. A jump plotted by the automatic systems without the involvement of a sentient astrogator is subject to the same DM-4 as all other fully automated actions. For this reason, if just one skilled crewmembers is carried it is usually an astrogator. A jump plotted in semi-automatic mode by someone without the Astrogator skill but with a basic understanding of the concepts involved suffers DM-2. It is thought that a machine will produce several apparently equal solutions to the same jump plot and cannot distinguish between them but a sentient mind somehow ‘feels’ which one is slightly better than the others. Even someone who is not a trained astrogator can do this to some extent and if one is available they can oversee the plot. Their Astrogator skill applies in this case and the DM-2 is not suffered.

Attempting to send a ship through jumpspace without people on board enormously increases the risk of misjump, for reasons unknown. In addition to the DM-4 for the autoplot, a vessel suffers an additional DM-4 if there are no conscious minds aboard. Low berth passengers are by definition not conscious and experiments with highly intelligent but non-sentient minds have produced wildly differing results.

pages 236-7 ALIENS OF CHARTED SPACE VOLUME 2


2. Just because you can user older hardware to process newer programmes, doesn't mean that those programmes are available at that level of technology, for whatever reason, canon or otherwise, the game provides.

3. Jump control one is listed at technological level nine, and jump control two at eleven.

4. However, for prototype jump drives, and especially early variants, you couldn't use them at lower technological levels, if the programmes used to activate them weren't available then, and of course, the requisite computers.

5. We could assume that these would be early prototype versions of these programmes, for what could be referred to as alpha and beta testing.

6. The complexity of a jump control one programme appears to be the same as fire control one, both available at technological level nine and requiring the same bandwidth.

That's MgT, yes? I tend to discount MgT for OTU discussions since it is usually badly researched and incompatible with previous canon. MgT appears to makeup stuff that is not canonical for the OTU, but that's ok since the MgT universe is an ATU.

A scout does not have a navigator, an x boat has no navigator in fact no ship needs a navigator until it is larger than 200t - these are OTU facts.

Canonically a ship needs a jump cassette or a generate programme.

You can build a robot using LBB8 that can have pilot and navigation 4 - plus it can carry the jump cassette or generate programme from storage to the computer. Pretty sure there was an robot pilot in the 101 robots DGP supplement.

 

[Condottiere]

The MongoVerse is the current edition, and if it were MegaTraveller, I'd be quoting from there. They deliberately avoid the fork in the road that kickstarts the Rebellion, so unlike GURPS, can't really be accused of speaking with forked tongues.

It does make you wonder how any later robotic rebellion can spread, unless sentience onboard a starship and astrogation at that stage would include artificial intelligence.

Which leaves us with the King Marc Bible: what does Tee Five have to say about empty hexes?

 

[whulorigan]

Which leaves us with the King Marc Bible: what does Tee Five have to say about empty hexes?

There are no empty-hex constraints in T⁵. (In fact, some of the higher-order FTL-Drives depend on the ability to Jump to/from empty hexes in order to be useful as a drive, due to "scatter" (i.e. increasing imprecision of jump-destination for higher order-of-magnitude drives).

 

[whartung]

There are no empty-hex constraints in T⁵. (In fact, some of the higher-order FTL-Drives depend on the ability to Jump to/from empty hexes in order to be useful as a drive, due to "scatter" (i.e. increasing imprecision of jump-destination for higher order-of-magnitude drives).

I don't recall any empty hex limits in CT either.

Does T5 cover historical jump as well?

The premise of the empty hex jump problem is that it's an attribute of early jump. "Today" it's not a problem. It's not a problem with the jump drive, it's not a J1 problem.

It's a navigation problem of computing the computables on the computer for the computation that drive the jump drive.

It's like the problem isn't that the rifle can't make the 1000 yard shot, the problem is that the shooter can't make the 1000 yard shot.

Also, to be fair, there is no mention of this in JTAS 24 (which I frankly consider the canonical jump reference). But, again, it's not a jump drive problem, and it would only come out in early jump history.

Perhaps empty hex jump is the "longitude" problem with jump. We did fine without it for some time, but got much better once that issue of navigation was solved.

Either way, as a game element, I'm totally fine with it in the ISW period.

 

[BackworldTraveller]

I don't recall any empty hex limits in CT either.

Does T5 cover historical jump as well?

The premise of the empty hex jump problem is that it's an attribute of early jump. "Today" it's not a problem. It's not a problem with the jump drive, it's not a J1 problem.

It's a navigation problem of computing the computables on the computer for the computation that drive the jump drive.

It's like the problem isn't that the rifle can't make the 1000 yard shot, the problem is that the shooter can't make the 1000 yard shot.

Also, to be fair, there is no mention of this in JTAS 24 (which I frankly consider the canonical jump reference). But, again, it's not a jump drive problem, and it would only come out in early jump history.

Perhaps empty hex jump is the "longitude" problem with jump. We did fine without it for some time, but got much better once that issue of navigation was solved.

Either way, as a game element, I'm totally fine with it in the ISW period.

Of course, without a jump-governor, the empty hex problem is fatal!

 

[Condottiere]

When I was trying to streamline the ten tonne jump drive, I tried to figure out how how much space the jump governor took and how much it cost.

If I remember correctly, it was a tonne and and add on for Book Two jump drives, though I can't remember where I saw it.

You probably don't need one for a factor one jump drive, since it's only for regulating fuel use.

 

[Jetrock]

Either way, as a game element, I'm totally fine with it in the ISW period.

I'm kind of liking the limitation on jumping to empty hexes during the ISW/2E/Long Night period (presumably the problem gets solved during the Aslan border wars as outlined in Dark Nebula) as I'm progressing from general Long Night info into a specific campaign setting, using some existing Traveller sectors that make reference to events during the Long Night. In this (now non-canon) campaign setting, a formerly hostile and expansionist (subsector-sized) empire established during the Rule of Man and a relatively benevolent planetary federation, who had some fairly nasty shooting wars during the early Twilight phases of the Long Night, were physically separated by two-parsec jumps.

My spin on the setting is, when both empires regressed in technology during the Long Night, they lost Jump-2 technology, which cut off the intervening space between the empire and the federation. Because the result was a cluster of relatively resource-rich worlds on a subsector main, relatively isolated from other systems and hard to reach, piracy dropped to nearly nil. The cluster started to develop into a peaceful, economically successful if informal alliance of worlds, dedicated to collaborative exploration and economic development. This led to a rekindling of scientific curiosity and exploration. Eventually, they rediscover Jump-2 and start expanding, only to realize that the nearby empire has also been consolidating its power and developed a Jump-2 drive of its own--which necessitates expanding in the other direction, to find out if their old homeworlds in that federation are potential allies in a potential fight for which their peaceful scout ships are poorly suited--or whether their worlds survived at all. I'm still trying to work out the details of a TL 9-10-11 based campaign in roughly the 30th Century (Terran), but disallowing jumps into non-star hexes (or, at best, making them an extremely risky proposition) is a concept I hadn't encountered before (guess I'll have to give GT:ISW a more thorough read, as well as other old Traveller fluff I'm digging through and acquring)--but it makes sense to me dramatically, and fills what had otherwise become a plot hole in my campaign setting!

 

[Condottiere]

Okay, now I get why the Model One computer keeps getting referred to as technological level five, from Classic High Guard.

At the University of Manchester, a team under the leadership of Tom Kilburn designed and built a machine using the newly developed transistors instead of valves. Initially the only devices available were germanium point-contact transistors, less reliable than the valves they replaced but which consumed far less power.[127] Their first transistorised computer, and the first in the world, was operational by 1953,[128] and a second version was completed there in April 1955.[129] The 1955 version used 200 transistors, 1,300 solid-state diodes, and had a power consumption of 150 watts. However, the machine did make use of valves to generate its 125 kHz clock waveforms and in the circuitry to read and write on its magnetic drum memory, so it was not the first completely transistorized computer.

That distinction goes to the Harwell CADET of 1955,[130] built by the electronics division of the Atomic Energy Research Establishment at Harwell. The design featured a 64-kilobyte magnetic drum memory store with multiple moving heads that had been designed at the National Physical Laboratory, UK. By 1953 this team had transistor circuits operating to read and write on a smaller magnetic drum from the Royal Radar Establishment. The machine used a low clock speed of only 58 kHz to avoid having to use any valves to generate the clock waveforms.[131][130]

If this is the case, I suspect the Apple Watch can be programmed with Jump Control One.

 

[Condottiere]

Jump Governor: It is possible to procure a jump governor for ships produced according to Book 2. It allows such a ship to utilize fuel more efficiently; instead of consuming all fuel when performing a jump, regardless of jump number, the ship will consume fuel equal to O.1MJn, where Jn is the actual jump number used, rather than the maximum jump number available. Available at any industrial world with tech level 10 or higher. Cost: Cr300 000. Mass: 1 ton. Ships produced according to this book already have the jump governor as part of their drives.

Finally tracked it down.

Probably integrated by now in all designs from all editions.

 

[GypsyComet]

Probably integrated by now in all designs from all editions.

Yes, for the simple reason that the thirsty jump drive mode is never mentioned again.

I'm kind of liking the limitation on jumping to empty hexes during the ISW/2E/Long Night period (presumably the problem gets solved during the Aslan border wars as outlined in Dark Nebula)

As previously noted, it's not that those hexes are truly empty, but that you don't know where the masses that make a jump safer are located. That takes some fairly powerful passive astronomy to remedy. If your two warring clusters were spoiled by having J2 they may not have the necessary navigational ephemera to know where the masses are, and, having come from a Ziru Sirka background, don't have the observational astronomical resources to find new ones. The old data would have aged out while they were in survival mode, as well, so even if they did have that data it is no longer useful.

 

[tjoneslo]

Jump Governor: It is possible to procure a jump governor for ships produced according to Book 2. It allows such a ship to utilize fuel more efficiently; instead of consuming all fuel when performing a jump, regardless of jump number, the ship will consume fuel equal to O.1MJn, where Jn is the actual jump number used, rather than the maximum jump number available. Available at any industrial world with tech level 10 or higher. Cost: Cr300 000. Mass: 1 ton. Ships produced according to this book already have the jump governor as part of their drives.

Finally tracked it down.

Probably integrated by now in all designs from all editions.

https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Jump_Governor/meta For the full story.

 

[Condottiere]

The jump governor was mentioned earlier, and got me thinking that the brute force approach would be simply jumping to any parsec within reach.

That extended to astrogation requiring a faster than light, to almost instantaneous, information about the gravitational fields at the destination to prohibit execution of the jump.

Without that instantaneous feedback, it becomes more a discrete decision as to whether the risks involved are worthwhile the attempt, rather than the inability to execute.