Aliens; rubbersuits?

[sabredog]

I'm only recently (like in the last month) transferring my stacks of hand-written notes, maps, deckplans, aliens, guns, gear, and TL-15 kitchen sinks to my computer so I have the Prox info still handwritten.

For the UPP you roll the standard 2D6
+2 for ST (max 15 - they only average stronger)
+1 for Endurance (max 16 - they are tougher and are built for running)

DX, IQ, ED are the same

Social Standing I've used like this: the player starts at 1 ...he's out on his own and hasn't gained any territory (either expressed through real estate, influence, or whatever little empire he wants to build..."territory" to the modern Prox can mean a lot of things so long as it's all his and can be used to eventually gain and support females and offspring, which is then used to gain more).

As he gains, power, influence, control over other Prox (building his clan as alpha male, these are the guys who will keep him on top so he doesn't have to fight all his battles on his own if he's one of those smaller smart types) I would give the player points like experience points. There is no upper limit.

The points were used like command points in a wargame, or as DM's for reactions of other Prox, or …and this is the big one: used when squaring off against another Prox in a fight for dominance because a lot of ritualized behavior (posturing, bragging, display, etc) goes into those types of fights before the actual blows. Deep down, especially when confronting another alpha male a Prox still feels that reflex to submit before a more powerful dominant male. It even transfers a little to other species in similar situations (but only at 50%). In order to even fight another Prox in a ritualized duel for dominance (like when two family groups butt up against each other and they decide to go mano-a-mano to decide who has to leave) the challenger will need to match his points against the other’s first to see if he’s “big enough” to try. The challenger can’t have more than 10 points less than the Prox he’s challenging or he won’t even feel the urge to try. It’s as biological as it is psychological.

If he passes that test then the two square off for a series of ritualized threat and posturing displays in an effort to get either his opponent to back down and submit, or get psyched up to fight. Each Prox decides how many of his social points he wants to wager, rolls 2D6 and adds the points as a DM. High number wins the round. This continues till one has no points left to use, tries to submit before losing all his points, or they fight.

Now he doesn’t have to use all of them at once…just what he thinks he’ll need. If he fails he can try again so long as he has points left to use. Once used, the loser will permanently lose half of the points he tried that round to represent loss of status and “face”. And it simulates his losing nerve and ground in this sort of contest. Imagine a lot of forward hunched teeth baring, jaw popping, growling, and other threat displays - they are in primitive mode, back on the ancient grasslands and de-evolving fast. So if he tries again he then has even less to use.

Once one of the two reaches zero, he submits. He loses all his remaining points and has to slink away and rebuild his social status. No fight happens, the instincts in the Prox are strong and the winner will recognize and acknowledge this kind of submission even if under more rational circumstances he’d blow the brains out of his rival without a second thought. This is the only way to guarantee you will survive the contest.


At any time either Prox can just go at it tooth and nail and fight rather than risk losing more points. But the ritualized behavior is over then and it’s a fight to the death. By this time the two are in primitive mode and won’t stop fighting till one is just torn to shreds literally. Prox bloodsport is illegal but rumors abound of Prox who have lost everything without fighting going the underground fight route in an effort to find a death he can be proud of or regain his lost pride.

Also at any time, the challenger can also submit and back out of the fight, but that really depends on the challenged. The genetic instinct to protect territory and family from outsiders is so strong during these events that unless the challenged (read: threatened) Prox really has himself under control (roll 10+ to calm down and think straight), it’s unlikely he’ll let the other one live without having reduced him to instinctive submission through ritualized display behavior as I described. And it would be utterly unthinkable for the challenged Prox to submit without having lost all his points so this option is only for the challenger.

To gain a follower to join your clan you used the same procedure, but no one dies or fights, it’s just ritualized display behavior, and if it goes into the fight mode the damage is only used to see who wins. If you win you gain dominance over the other Prox and he stays with you for life (or at least until you lose all your points somehow, then he’s out of there. Or kills you and takes everything you have for himself. It’s considered a sort of mercy-killing among them anyway in that case.).

I never came up with a set system of how much of what is worth how many points, so feel free to invent what you need. I liked it to be under my control so it didn’t get out of control.

Also, for the fighting part:

If you are a Prox who doesn’t want to fight a bigger, stronger more dominant Prox (he has a lot of social points) you have one of your champions do it for you. All he has to do is make the challenge and then go at it without the risk of losing the display portion. If he wins for you then you have to lavish him with some of your points, along with money/territory/a female, whatever.

Now, while he will still defend to the death the clan/pack aggregate territory, if you aren’t careful about how often you use him for this he might gain enough status that he starts seeing you as someone he might want to challenge himself. Again, this is a biological thing, not just psychological – the dynamic is the same as for the above described challenges.

The insurance against this happening very often is to promote family, blood family – not those males who join the clan for mutual protection and benefit because they are too weak to stand on their own. Social point parity among blood relatives in the same clan (not living outside of it, prodigal sons returning to take on dad count as any other threat) doesn’t cause fights. SO if you promote the kids, and keep them close, they’ll be the ones you can count on in your old age.

 

[sabredog]

Oh yeah, you can send them through a lot of the conventional career paths, but they naturally tend to be successful in:
Army
Other
Pirates
Belter
Scouts, but you have to wonder if the Prox will turn over ALL the data on worlds he's found, or keep a little something for himself so he can start a clan
Not merchant prince, but regular LBB 1 merchant would be ok...free trader type stuff

Essentially any service where he can be either on his own or could be a good fighting asset. But the Marines and Navy are where I absolutely draw the line. At least IMTU the Prox find them too regimented and confining, but the Army career I figure just means he went mercenary with a unit specializing in night-fighting or tickets to really nasty worlds.

Remember, they aren't chaotic pirate types; they can work and play well with others. Its usually when Prox are around other Prox that aren't part of their family or clan that causes problems. But they do rally well against common threats once everyone sorts out the pecking order.

 

[Ran Targas]

Although I really like the Prox and appreciate the thought you put into them, to me they are still too difficult to separate socially or behaviorally from certain RW groups of humans or even Vargr; I like my aliens to be really alien.

Still, I'm a homo sapiens chauvanist and strongly on the side of a very unfriendly galaxy. To that point, I actively discourage my players from rolling up non-humans and have gone to great lengths to make the standard Trav aliens even more incompatible with humaniti. I have found that this strategy develops an us-versus-them mentality in the group, keeping the group from fracturing at every little turn. I've even tried to make Vilani, Zhodani, and Solomani quirky enough so their differences prevent easy association between the human races.

For example - Although from the same genetic heritage as humans, the Vargr IMTU are very barbaric, aggressive, and even more prolific than in the OTU; for every human born to a set of parents, Vargr often have quadruplets or more. And they breed more often. The theory that they are the chosen of the Ancients has become more than just a guiding principle; it's a religon, creating a total disregard of others species except as slaves and chattle. Their numbers are such that they are regularly forced to spread out to the stars and war against their neighbors just to prevent a total self-annihilation. Rumors abound that they torture and eat prisoners captured in battle in elaborate victory ceremonies to absorb their strength and that slaves are butchered if they don't sell. Additionally, the environment of Lair was such that proto-Vargr had to adapt to breathing air laden with sulfur; without sulfur dioxide in their atmosphere, they eventually suffer from pneumonia like symptoms leading to a pitiful death.

The Aslan IMTU are more like the Kzinti or Kilrathi except where females of the species are concerned; the females are the brains of the outfit and direct the males in their conquests. Aslan body chemistry is significantly different preventing Aslan from eating human food or using human medications without significant consequences. They are strictly carnivorous, prefering live prey native to their home-world and liquids with a significant mineral content, sufficiently so to make humans or Vargr very ill if consumed. Due to their body structure, Aslan are unable to use human tools unless highly modified and find human accommodations the equivalent of torture chambers; few human trade goods interest Aslan except raw materials or technology. In addition to the physical differences, the Aslan IMTU think very little of humaniti except as cannon fodder in inter-clan warfare; most despise humaniti as little more than tool using monkeys whose prolific nature prevents them (the Aslan) from controlling more of this part of the galaxy.

The Hivers and K'kree also differ greatly.

As for humans, there is no trust between the different races as each has fought wars of conquest and mass destruction against the other. The Solomani are struggling under a paranoid Stalinistic dictatorship that propaganizes the Vilani as so decadent that daily atrocities against human dignity and Terran morales are committed and such horrors demand an accounting. The Vilani see the Solomani as serpent readying itself to strike, using every tool at its disposal to undermine and destroy Vilani society. The Zhodani despise both races for their lack of discipline, contributing much of it to the Solomani influence on the Vilani, and the reluctance of either to surrender to obvious Zhodani superiority. The strength of these perceptions causes significant rifts between the races, preventing pleasant co-mingling and sharing of resources, and make the border regions no-mans lands studded with military outposts and wandering fleets of warships.

So far, most of my players have gone along with my bastardization of the OTU and from their many suggestions, I have wandered further from canon.

 

[Ishmael]

I don't see how humans can generate or play 'alien' aliens. humans will simply play them as a human in an alien suit because thats what it ultimately is; a human pretending to be an alien. The best we can do is use another culture as a model.... aslan = feudal japan and samurais, bilani = modern japan corporate boardrooms, vargr = american plains indians prior to the expansion west or the various tribal communities in the middle east.
but using another culture as a model still gives us humans in rubber suits in the end. As such, the aliens can be seamlessly replaced by humans from that culture instead.

another problem is that they would have the same motivations as humans... eat lots of good food, sleep without getting killed, get laid and have lots of babies ( which would probably be tied to its ability in securing the first two 'needs' ), etc. and given similar enough ecology such that humans can interact with them, the differences might not amount to anything different that doesn't look like cultural differences.

The problem is that humans are pretending to be whatever humans think aliens might be like. The obvious solution is to remove humans from that position. Make a series of behavioral tables that can be indexed into randomly. Its a sophontists job to figure out what are in the tables are just from watching the aliens. In other words, come up with some sort of basic AI routine to govern their actions attitudes.
It'd only be good for npc aliens I suppose, but that might be good enough in a game.

 

[sabredog]

Or perhaps the only solution would be to reverse the tables by having all the players run the same alien race in an area in the universe where that species is dominant, and have humans, other aliens, or whosis be in the severe minority as NPC's.

But everyone seems to have hit on the same basic problem here: even with seamless rubbersuits, breathing weird gas mixes, eating odd food, acting like an extra from a Kurasawa film, or having exhaustively traced their biological evolution back to the ooze, any alien remotely fun to play in a game is going to have to have enough common interests/behaviors/needs/wants to still not be "alien enough." Nobody wants to play as, or talk to the thing in a jar.

In the end we are all just cosmopolitan beings looking for an angle while trying keep the other guy from getting it first.

 

[Ran Targas]

^ I think you've pretty much hit it on the head.

I know playing aliens is a double edged sword; I've been congratulated and villianized by the same fellow gamers during the same game for playing an alien way they are described in Traveller canon. Some how alien PCs are actually expected by the players of human characters to become more human during the course of a game instead of being consistent to their nature; like human culture can tame the savage beast.

You would think that when you choose to game in a universe where humans are in contact with aliens on a regular basis you would want said critters to behave differently, not just like your neighbor or grocery clerk. I guess it's another of those situations where the line between player and PC gets very confused. Players want to be comfortable with and trust their fellow gamers to be predicable so feelings get hurt when PCs have divergent agendas, particularly alien ones.

 

[aramis]

Ran:

I've had players state that was part of their goal, to humanize the alien. It's part of the faerie mythos as well, that humanity is contagious.

By the same token, however, when players do a really good job of staying alien, despite this, it creates interesting dynamics in play.

Then again, I had a player playing the ship's cat...

 

[daryen]

I refuse to believe that a "real" alien would have a set of options on their behavior that is significantly more limited than humans have. Aslan are not unrealistic because they are cat-men, but rather because they are samurai cat-men. The entire species is locked into a single monolithic culture that none can escape. And it is a culture that is fairly obvious and identifiable to humans. That is ridiculous.

Alien species should have as wide a divergence in cultures as humanity does. It doesn't have to range the same, nor does it have to have the same distribution. But the range of cultures should still be wide, and be noticably different. Same for alien religions. There should be massive differences of religion and culture within a single alien species.

I know playing aliens is a double edged sword; I've been congratulated and villianized by the same fellow gamers during the same game for playing an alien way they are described in Traveller canon. Some how alien PCs are actually expected by the players of human characters to become more human during the course of a game instead of being consistent to their nature; like human culture can tame the savage beast.

Actually, that brings up another point. Why are almost all aliens "savage"? All of the examples described here (e.g. the Prox) are savage and brutal. They must display base, primitive skills and abilities to advance. Where are the egalitarians? Where are the elitists? Where are the intellectuals? Where are the philosophers? I want an alien race that is so civilized and refined that humans are the savage beasts. Heck, even a scheming grey would be an improvement.

 

[Ran Targas]

^ Actually, I think humans are very chauvanistic and intolerant (a trait I exagerate IMTU), assuming they are the pinnacle of civility and morality. Faced with an egalitarian or elitist or intellectual society, we humans would still assume we are superior and judge them as uncivilized for something we either misunderstand or just won't accept. We can see this in the RW with the differences between Western culture and Eastern culture; the West often passes judgement on the East and vice versa whenever the behaviour of one ruffles the feathers of the other.

As such, the terms barbarism and savagery would probably be used in the Imperium to describe societies both above and below humaniti in the socio-evolutionary scale. A species, like the Hivers, that basically practice eugenics does so with the full support of its population and without moral qualms, but a human think sending their children into the wilderness to weed out the weak as barbaric. A society like the Droyne that uses a mystic ceremony, with little or no scientific basis, to pigeon hole their young into castes and careers, casually dismissing free will, definitely insults the sensibilities of most humans as barbaric. But is it really barbaric or just outside human tolerance?

I see this as the biggest reason there would be a lot more strife in the OTU between the different sophont species; humans would keep trying to make everyone act like humans instead of accepting the differences or voluntarily separating the cultures entirely. I keep thinking back to Star Trek and Kirk's and Picard's crusades to wipe out alien cultures and replace them with "Federation" brand morality and civilization. It seems almost an addiction for some humans to meddle in the affairs of others. Some Prime Directive.

 

[daryen]

Ran,

I don't disagree with your point about humans. However, that is not what I meant.

When I say "savage", I mean it in its most basic terms. The Prox (described above) are savage. The Aslan and Vargr are savage. In 2300, the Kafers are savage. Leaving Traveller, Klingons (both TOS and TNG) are savage. They determine social order and superiority by physical competition. All that matters is if you can kick your opponent's butt. That is what I am complaining out.

I can see the occasional "savage" species attaining interstellar technology. But, for the most part, I just don't buy it as what appears to be the "norm" in so much sci-fi. (Which, actually, helps amplify the underlying point you are trying to bring out.)

As a contrast, I like the Hivers. Especially the post-CT version as expressed in TNE and GT. (The CT version is unnuanced and boring.) They are moderately alien and, while they fail my "monolithic culture" complaint, they get around it because they actively did it to themselves. (The Hivers are elitist, but they practice their eugenics on themselves as much as any other race.)

 

[sabredog]

Actually, that brings up another point. Why are almost all aliens "savage"? All of the examples described here (e.g. the Prox) are savage and brutal. They must display base, primitive skills and abilities to advance. Where are the egalitarians? Where are the elitists? Where are the intellectuals? Where are the philosophers? I want an alien race that is so civilized and refined that humans are the savage beasts. Heck, even a scheming grey would be an improvement.

Savage and brutal? No more or less than modern humanity, it's just that an alien race's ways of expressing that "brutality" might be more shocking in its bald-faced honesty because we would look for those differences we would otherwise be inured to by our long human history. And even now, on Earth, we can make a long list of brutal and savage practices and mores that would match that of any imagined alien.

Genocide on an industrial scale (those crazy humans just butcher each other by the millions once and a while for no apparent reason, maybe it’s a religious sacrifice?)…assorted odd involuntary surgical amputations to keep females “pure” (those human females must not be very enlightened or maybe they are not highly intelligent to put up with that)…and if you’ve ever seen a gang fight (or even a fight among many primitive tribes) then you’ve witnessed ritualized dominant behavior in human form.
You say tomay-to, I say tomah-to, it’s all the same thing. But since we are used to it in human varieties we are shocked when we see it displayed by aliens.

As for the philosophy, artsy, intellectual aliens among savage neobarbs like the Prox> they are out there on the many worlds that species exists on, but who wants to play a philosophy professor in an RPG like Traveller? I'd even argue that the smartist elitist ones are the ones who strike out for the stars to compete among technologically superior and more numerous aliens rather than sit at home.

I prefer to run, and I’ve always found that players prefer a game that is more action and adventure oriented. Navel-gazing Hiver types are great for patrons who send the players off to find the mythical statute or writings of whosits-whatnot, but the players then like to be the intrepid adventurers who have to face danger and risk among the savage alien hordes to find such items. And that means while they appreciate all the back-story that I put into my aliens (much much more than is possible to put into a post); they really just need to deal with those cultural aspects they regularly rub up against. All that background is mainly my hobby and interest as a referee who likes a universe where you won’t run into many “Dungeon Under Construction” signs.

Once in a great while I have had players who decided for some reason or another to run a “real” full-on alien. They read all my material on various ones and then played it. It’s interesting, its novel, but in the end they just pretty much end up running a caricature of the alien that with lots of exaggerated behavior they become a joke. That happens mainly because as far as how I run aliens the ones that are out adventuring among humans and others tend to be the ones who are less “alien chauvinistic” too. So it’s like one big melting pot effect once you get out among the stars, unless you predominantly stay with your own kind while doing so.

That’s why I had the admonition that Prox really only behave all snarly and posturing in either a fight or mainly only among themselves. Otherwise the ones who decided to strike out on their own are by definition a lot like us: curious, adventuresome, unconventional, not too uncomfortable around other species, a wee more tolerant than you’d give them credit for, and maybe braver than most for breaking out of conventional practices.

If a Prox acted the way they do in conflict with each other they’d get gunned down routinely, and if they hadn’t evolved to create communities based on mutual interest and fostering cooperation (if only when faced with outside threats…hmmmmm, sounds like speech I heard back in the 80’s) they would’ve never even made it to the low TL they did.

BTW: I know you’re not picking on my aliens per se, this is just my philosophical take on the regular debate on “Why aren’t these aliens alien enough and why don’t the players play them that way?”.

 

[sabredog]

Ran,

I don't disagree with your point about humans. However, that is not what I meant.

When I say "savage", I mean it in its most basic terms. The Prox (described above) are savage. The Aslan and Vargr are savage. In 2300, the Kafers are savage. Leaving Traveller, Klingons (both TOS and TNG) are savage. They determine social order and superiority by physical competition. All that matters is if you can kick your opponent's butt. That is what I am complaining out.

Perhaps you could better define your term? Savage can mean a lot of things, but I'll take it in the "primitive noble warrior fights real good" sense.

Now name me a human civilization that has really existed that didn't determine a social pecking order by means of kicking other people's butts by either brute force of arms, or by the more polite and socially acceptable (in today's more anyway) method of knifing them economically?

Greeks practiced infanticide (not just the Spartans, mind you, they were just more Hiver-particular like) yet gave us the foundation of Western culture and sciences. Romans were considered pretty advanced but had gladitorials and the Pax Romana was kept through force of arms.

The British Empire started out ostensibly for purposes of creating a trading empire and it turned out that wasn't going to work out so "civilized". Victoria's Little Wars were virtually non-stop, but no one can accuse the British Empire of not being pretty technologically and philsophically advanced. But dueling was accepted, if not always legal. Hmmm..."dominance fighting" among the Eton class?

I once read that if you imagined what life was like in the pre-ACW American South it could be summed up by lots of Spanish Moss, dewy-eyed belles under parasols, and getting shot in a duel by an over-educated dandy in exquisite dress over some slight not wholly understood by either party. It also meant institutional slavery in what was a modern society...but I'd say that might be a wee savage.

So you see, it's all relative anyway to your point of view. In the end though, we are only playing a game, and games require conflict so whether its a savage orc, barbarian Vargr, over-civilized high-tech Hiver with a gun, or savage barbarian or barbarian savage, in the end I only want it to be fun.

And, of course, I need to know how many rounds I gotta use to stop it from eating me or carrying off the girl it has unholy intentions on.

 

[Ran Targas]

^ Nicely put SD BTW, glad you understand we're not knocking the Prox; as I said, they seem very well thought out. I may just plant them on a planet I'm fleshing out as another Ancient uplift species.

And Daryen, I agree that not enough species in the OTU are superior to humans socially or technologically; it's very homo-centric in that area. This may in itself be another example of subtle, inadvertent human chauvanism. Would you want to play a game where your own species aren't the best and the brightest? I think most Travellers subconsciously take comfort in that our species dominates most of the known universe, even if it's fictional. Plus it's a hell of a lot easier to relate to.

MTU is different; my Hivers and Droyne are vastly older than humaniti and retain significant technological advantages. Hivers have been manipulating humaniti for millenia and the Droyne use us as cannon fodder or worse. Humaniti in general just doesn't know that they are some where near the bottom of the food chain, but my players have pretty much figured it out.

 

[sabredog]

Use them or abuse them any way you want, I'm happy and flattered anyone likes them.

So do you think the whole "uplift by the Ancients" is more of a cheap way to come up with aliens that are dogs and cats, not to mention why all the human varieties look like humans from different parts of the world? I know there are some aliens (Droyne don't count since we know who they are), like the Hivers, that are different, but they seem all so interconnected.

Why not have a universe full of aliens that all developed independently of each other, no genetic or eugenic meddling? Convergent evolution provides for many solutions to the same problems - which is why its easy to explain why so many aliens are bilateral bipeds with only one head that has all the main sensory organs in it. Its pretty efficient and nature is highly conservative in design theory. Form definitely follows function.

So what kind of aliens would we come up with if we tried it from the non-uplift approach?

BTW: are the Hivers uplifted starfish? Why not spiders, camels, or dinosaurs as uplifted aliens?

 

[sabredog]

Ooops, it just occurred to me…are K’kree really uplifted camels? Wouldn’t that blow their vegie minds if that turned out to be true?

 

[daryen]

Perhaps you could better define your term? Savage can mean a lot of things, but I'll take it in the "primitive noble warrior fights real good" sense.

That pretty much works. But by "fights real good" I mean the physicality of it. So, I am making a clear differentiation between knifing someone economically and knifing them with an actual, physical knife.

In other words, let's take the Klingons (so my example is outside Traveller and I am not stomping on anyones favorite Traveller species). As shown in TNG, it really doesn't matter who is smarter (or even right), it just matters that, once you get to the mano-a-mano, you can kill him before he kills you. There just isn't any mechanism to allow other means of conflict resolution.

So you see, it's all relative anyway to your point of view. In the end though, we are only playing a game, and games require conflict so whether its a savage orc, barbarian Vargr, over-civilized high-tech Hiver with a gun, or savage barbarian or barbarian savage, in the end I only want it to be fun.

Hey, I fully understand that "civilization" is much a common lie as anything else.

Again, I am not arguing against conflict, or even violence. I am just talking about resolving that conflict or violence by means other than physically ripping each others throats out with their claws. (BTW, that raises the whole other question of why they all have claws and sharp teeth and whatnot. But let's ignore that one for now ...) Let's see some use of technology. Or even acknowledge its existance. How about sublimating that physical violence into something different? You can even kill off the loser if you really want. Just don't make them stand there and beat on each other with claws and teeth.

I guess that is my major point. Here are races that span the stars, have access to unimaginable technologies, can do tremendous things, and they still can't resolve conflict by means other than clawing at each other. (I was going to say hitting each other over the heads with clubs, but they don't even go that advanced. Except the Klingons. At least they use funky swords instead of intrinsic weaponry.)

I prefer to run, and I’ve always found that players prefer a game that is more action and adventure oriented. Navel-gazing Hiver types are great for patrons who send the players off to find the mythical statute or writings of whosits-whatnot, but the players then like to be the intrepid adventurers who have to face danger and risk among the savage alien hordes to find such items.

Again, I fully understand the need for conflict to drive the story. That isn't my point. Using your example, I am sure your players like action and adventure, but would they really enjoy having to have bare-knuckle fights to setting whose idea they use? Would they really follow a stupid idea just because the biggest brute of the group champions it? Of course not, but we are expect to believe that is how entire societies are run.

And Hivers are not "navel-gazers". They are arrogant jerks who view others as tools as much as "people". They are a good example of what I would like to see more of. (And just to be clear, I am not talking about the boring CT-Hivers, but the more nuanced TNE-Hivers and GT-Hivers.) They can be adventurers as much as any other race. They will just want to make sure the other adventurers are in between them and the immediate danger ...

 

[daryen]

And Daryen, I agree that not enough species in the OTU are superior to humans socially or technologically; it's very homo-centric in that area.

Actually, this is an important part of the OTU. One of the main points of the original OTU setup was that humaniti were the dominant species of Charted Space. Changing that would move away from one of the founding pillars of the OTU.

So, I don't think it was "human chauvanism", but rather just an overt design decision.

MTU is different; my Hivers and Droyne are vastly older than humaniti and retain significant technological advantages. Hivers have been manipulating humaniti for millenia and the Droyne use us as cannon fodder or worse. Humaniti in general just doesn't know that they are some where near the bottom of the food chain, but my players have pretty much figured it out.

That all said, I have no problem with an ATU that de-emphasizes humaniti. Doing something useful with the Droyne is always a good idea, since they are little more than window dressing in the OTU. Making them relevant (and dangerous) can only be a good thing for the setting.

(And I have already stated my views on the Hivers. Giving them metaphorical "teeth" is good.)

 

[daryen]

So do you think the whole "uplift by the Ancients" is more of a cheap way to come up with aliens that are dogs and cats, not to mention why all the human varieties look like humans from different parts of the world?

Just for the record, the Aslan, K'kree, and Hivers are not uplifted anything. The Vargr are pure uplifts. The Droyne were manipulated. The non-Solomani humans were manipulated.

Note that this is OTU. Do what you want in YTU. I certainly do in MTU.

So, the Aslan are not really uplifted cats. They are an independent species that has nothing to do with anything from Terra. (Well, except for their jump drive. They got that from a misjumped Solomani ship.)

The reason for the Ancients is to get humaniti into the stars. The original designers wanted the first aliens met by Terran explorers to be humans. To do that, they had to create the Ancients to get humans into the stars. That was the "story" purpose of the Ancients. (LKW explains much of this in the sidebars of the GT Sourcebook.)

So what kind of aliens would we come up with if we tried it from the non-uplift approach?

I think someone on Freelance Traveller was trying something like that. A "no Ancients" universe. If based on the OTU, you will still get the Aslan, K'kree, Hivers, and Solomani from among the "majors". The Vargr, Zhodani, and Vilani all go away. (As do all of the other minor human races.)

 

[sabredog]

I am just talking about resolving that conflict or violence by means other than physically ripping each others throats out with their claws. (BTW, that raises the whole other question of why they all have claws and sharp teeth and whatnot. But let's ignore that one for now ...) Let's see some use of technology. Or even acknowledge its existance. How about sublimating that physical violence into something different? You can even kill off the loser if you really want. Just don't make them stand there and beat on each other with claws and teeth.

I understand what you are saying here. Let me clarify (and feel free to beat on my aliens, I do all the time):
I agree with the whole Klingon thing - they were just comic opera bad guys originally and evolved into comically operatic bad guys when the movies came out. They make no sense whatsoever, my God; they didn't even have enough self-awareness on a racial scale to save themselves when the sun on their one world was going to explode. What about all the worlds they otherwise lived on?

As for my Prox, the rationale for the way they resolve disputes involving dominating behavioral issues among themselves the way they do is twofold: first, it is because dominating other males is ingrained behavior that cannot be changed – it’s integral to the Prox worldview because it’s a biological imperative and it has implications all up and down the scale of their society.

Second, it forces the player (and me) to balance the desires and actions of the NPC or character against a natural behavior that is an intrinsic part of that species. So because of that, and the possible conflicts it causes, players and I are forced into self-limiting behavior and decision-making options. Part of the Prox character is this self-limiting behavior that is not only personal, but societal. Because it’s there, and because it is something to be avoided if possible, it doesn’t happen as often I modern society as you might think. As you pointed out, how does a violent race avoid killing itself off before it learns to produce any higher technology, art, etc.? Well, that is also part of the human paradox so I think that answers itself.

Now, just because in its ultimate the form ritualized combat for dominance is a tooth and claw affair doesn’t mean that that is always the way it can go. As I said before, there are two basic survival strategies that they evolved: smart weaker Prox banded together to protect territory and share females for breeding against the larger, stronger Prox who maintained it by force. Do you not think the former might try to assassinate or financially break through remote means a stronger competitor in a more advanced society? Don’t you think there’d be a place for both types in a society – we have that even here?

Of course they would. But, by making it something that is a time-honored ritualized behavior, that also has a hormonal element that forces a biological imperative into the equation, it happens to even the most advanced of them. Because it is tradition in some instances it just has to happen no matter what, more in some areas of Prox society than others. Because of the hormonal component it’s kind of like the Moties (Mote in God’s Eye) not being able to stop breeding no matter how advanced they become – their biology means they have to breed or die. Here on Earth female ferrets (for just one example) can have an embolism and die because of hormonal changes during estrus. An operation fixes that but imagine what that might be like in an intelligent race. It can be treated as a shameful secret, or something embraced and proclaimed proudly. Prox are proud, but most are apologetically proud of this less savory aspect of their character. That’s another component in their psychology.

So the Prox have incorporated it into their modern culture in a way similar to dueling was in Victorian days. A highly ritualized and ceremonial affair that has various checks and balances to attempt to prevent it from happening in the first place, but if it really just has to be then here’s how it’s done. One of the natural checks is that the challenger can (most of the time, and to a certain point) submit and slink off with his hide intact if he’s having an off day. However, that’s a chancy thing because after a certain point in the process his body chemistry will get caught up in it all and he’ll lose the control of his modern mind.
But then, according to most experts on the subject, deaths in the majority of human Victorian duels were extremely rare and attributed to mainly a loss of temper. It was actually considered bad form to kill your opponent if it was obvious that merely a show of force was needed to assuage one’s honor.

 

[sabredog]

CONTINUED...

Prox can solve modern problems like anyone else can, too, it’s just that given it is a male society (remember the females are semi-intelligent and kept hidden and protected), and a definite pecking order exists at all times, then there has to be a way of sorting that order out if there are disputes about who gets to sit where. Think of it as instead of flipping a coin, a Prox might want to bristle his fur and growl a little. The other Prox recognizes those little unspoken clues that a non-Prox might misinterpret completely and ducks his head a little. He now understands his place, no feelings are hurt, and no blood is shed.

As for the tooth and claw part, the reason is again tradition and biology, psychology and chemistry.

Tradition: tradition and ritual has made the practice something that Prox can accept as normal in an advanced society. By embracing that primitive aspect of themselves they keep in touch with their ancestral home world and ancestors during a time when they are scattered among the stars and could run the risk of losing that identity. By embracing it they don’t feel shame about it, they feel pride –

“Look at us! We are Prox! We are strong enough to embrace the savage animal within us at the same time as we can advance to fly among the stars! We need not be ashamed; it is as natural as having babies, eating, and sleeping. And as thinking beings we control it (even if that’s only by way of developing elaborate rituals of contact and trade) while outsiders kill each other over nothing.”

And like ritualized violence in our own societies its more prevalent, even required, in some areas of society more than in others. Criminals do it all the time, while trading clans do it extremely rarely.
But regardless of how often it happens, or by whatever other means are used to dominate an opponent, it’s always there in every Prox. If he loses control at the wrong time in an argument he might get into more trouble than he can handle. So learning control is a big part of early Prox development.

Psychology: Anyone can buy a fancy outfit, jewelry, a nickel-plated blaster. But take off his clothes and the flashiest gangsta might just look and act pretty pathetic. Stripping off one’s clothing, depending on the situation can teach you the difference between being naked and feeling naked. It levels the playing field. It’s also important if you go through various natural behaviors to make yourself look bigger, meaner, stronger, in order to intimidate your opponent. This is like watching the New Zealand All-Blacks square off and dance a haka prior to kick off on the soccer field. Watch this and you’ll see what I’m talking about - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd0kDxP04eI&feature=related

Bristle fur, pop jaws, flex muscles, claws, whatever. Brandishing sharp or enhanced claws (like that nickel-chromed blaster) is part of the package – it might be bragging, it might be real. We humans don’t have those things as regular weapons – we are tool makers and users, but from personal experience I can tell you that tooth and nail will happen even in humans.

But that aside, if an alien race had a natural arsenal it could use in addition to tools, why would it deny their use? We don’t even though we don’t have teeth and claws. Soldiers are still fought hand-to-hand skills even though they might be driving a tank into battle. Why do we have all these martial arts and Ultimate Fighting when all anyone needs is a gun? Maybe it feels more natural in some circumstances, and maybe it means the fight is too important for whatever reason to do it any other way.

Biology & Chemistry: I already touched on the why of the thing, but also part of the equation are pheromone releases and other physical cues that happen that force the whole thing to happen. There is a point of no return, so trying to avoid the whole thing is probably the best thing to do. So the smart ones try to avoid, and the rest, well I said it was self-limiting.