All Things Vargr

[LeperColony]

The Vargr were strong enough to overrun the TL14 Reserve Fleets in Corridor. Each subsector had two of them, and they were still defeated.

 

[Condottiere]

By their nature, capital ship building programmes are tremendously expensive, time extensive, resource intensive, and require political will to run, and you carefully have to maintain the ships afterwards.

Not qualities that tend to coincide with the Vargr at any one time.

Also you need a powerful enemy to justify their existence, otherwise they revert back to small ship universe.

If your primary mission is to dissuade other Vargr not to go aviking in your territory, considering their longships seem to be four hundred tonnes, your patrol ships are not going to be much larger.

 

[LeperColony]

The thing is though, canon says they must have them. And in sufficient numbers to be an impact on a strategic scale. I'm not sure if the 5FW counter mix is canon, but I'm pretty sure MegaTraveller is, and MT says the Vargr overrun Corridor.

Perhaps its the case that the Vargr near the major human states (Imperium, Zhodani, Julians) are more inclined to construct or obtain large ships.

 

[mike wightman]

By their nature, capital ship building programmes are tremendously expensive, time extensive, resource intensive, and require political will to run, and you carefully have to maintain the ships afterwards.

And there are many Vargr states with the resources to do this - the Vargr extents are not a collection of random planets, they are a hodge podge of pocket empires, some of which may be sector sized.

Not qualities that tend to coincide with the Vargr at any one time.

Absolute tosh - canon shows otherwise.

Also you need a powerful enemy to justify their existence, otherwise they revert back to small ship universe.

You mean like having another hostile pocket empire right next door - which is the case in the majority of the extents and for the majority of Vargr space faring history.

If your primary mission is to dissuade other Vargr not to go aviking in your territory, considering their longships seem to be four hundred tonnes, your patrol ships are not going to be much larger.

This is the dichotomy of the small ship/large ship paradigm.
Vargr raiders are going to be anywhere from 100 to 100000t and possibly bigger.

 

[Condottiere]

If there were hundred thousand tonne raiders, I'd bet the Imperium would be looking for an excuse to sweep through the Vargr Extents and destroy every single shipyard and corsair base they can locate and reach.

 

[McPerth]

The Vargr were strong enough to overrun the TL14 Reserve Fleets in Corridor. Each subsector had two of them, and they were still defeated.

Yes, and that's one of the hardest parts to swallow in the whole MT history (and there are many of them).

The Vargr ships shown in MT are crap against any decent Imperial ship (even reserve light cruisers will make short of them) with MT own combat rules (see that under some other combat rules, as MgT HG, Vargr victory would be more possible, though not likely).

In MT history line, they conquered not only Corridor, but also Gemid, a HiPop TL16 client state, with the ressources to build a TL16 fleet that would be able to repeal most invasions by anything less than full Imperial fleets. And, being a client state, it's unlikely any of their ships are sent away to help Lucan against Dulinor...

And there are many Vargr states with the resources to do this - the Vargr extents are not a collection of random planets, they are a hodge podge of pocket empires, some of which may be sector sized.

Sure, many Vargr states have the techincal (TL) and economic ressources to build ships perfectly equivalent to Imperial ones, but they really have the will to do it? And, if so, will their Prince send them far away for a conquest campaign?

I don't think so...

Do you remember Asimov's Fundation and Empire, specifically Bel Riose history?

On it, it is discussed that to perform such a conquest campaign you need a strong Emperor (prince for the Vargr) and a strong general (or aldmiral). But an Emperor is strong because he does not allow for strong Genernals (as they can challenge him).

And that's for humans. Varg, being more "loyality changes" prone will have this problem inreased manyfold.

Let's accept a Vargr Prince builds such a Battlefleet and sends it far away to the Imperium fo a conquest campaign. If the fleet is somewhat successful, how long will it take until its Aldmiral, far from the Prince and with its increasing charima will declare Independence and set its own Pocket Empire in the conquered territory?

So, if the campaign goes bad, the Prince risks his fleet, and if it goes well, it risks losing its conquests, fleet and face to a defecting Aldmiral.

And if the Prince goes himself commanding the conquest fleet, how long until its own base territory revolts against the absent prince and someone else assumes his trone?

Absolute tosh - canon shows otherwise.

I don't have every published book, so, where exactly (aside the script need of Vargr invasion while the Rebellion)?

You mean like having another hostile pocket empire right next door - which is the case in the majority of the extents and for the majority of Vargr space faring history.

Agreed, but those are similar Vargr Pocket Empires with the same strengths and weaknesses that their own, not established larger Empieres like 3I.

This is the dichotomy of the small ship/large ship paradigm.
Vargr raiders are going to be anywhere from 100 to 100000t and possibly bigger.

Again, where in Traveller canon appears a Vargr ship of this size?

The larger ones I've seen are the 30000 dton Battlecruisers in MT:RS, that, as said above, would be no match for the Imperial Ligth Cruiser (also 30000 dtons, BTW) shown three pages latter in the same book...

 

[LeperColony]

I think the problem is you're looking at how the Vargr are described in the canon and, through entirely reasonable inferences, you're attempting to project the capabilities of the various Vargr states.

Unfortunately, your projections run contrary to what we know the Vargr did manage in the canon.

I would submit that rather than argue the contradiction, which is certainly apparent, it may be a more useful exercise to try to find ways to harmonize the difference between the Vargr psychology and ideology on the one hand, and the canonical events ascribed to them on the other.

 

[McPerth]

If there were hundred thousand tonne raiders, I'd bet the Imperium would be looking for an excuse to sweep through the Vargr Extents and destroy every single shipyard and corsair base they can locate and reach.

Why should 3I have done that? Just pitch those Pocket Empires against one another, it's easier and cheaper. I guess there were several Imperial Intelligence (all agencies) such operation being performed at any moment.

And they make funnier adventures (or interferences on them) for players than having the IN conducting the campaigns you tell about :devil:...

 

[The Pakkrat]

A Census of the Extents TLs

Looking at TravellerMap, official, in review or unofficial as it may be, this Anchor-rat would be aptly afraid of the Vargr Extents ability to produce any class of military starship.

One unofficial yet listed source I found told that almost every polity in Gvurrdon Sector sent a few to many military vessels, contributing to the Fifth Frontier War; the exception being the Thoengling Empire who was on relatively good terms with the Third Imperium of the times. History only wants to remember the 40th Squadron’s two fleets and the Kfourzeng Corsairs.

Here is a list of searches for TL15 and TL16 worlds of the Vargr Extents. Discount them at your discretion. Note that while these worlds have yet to be fully fleshed out, they may or may not be able to crank out TL 15 or TL16 vessels unlike Darrian which are barely holding onto their TL16 ships during the Fifth Frontier War.

Tech Level 15 worlds of the Vargr Extents (in-review and unofficial)

Serue (Knoellighz 1221) NaVa
Dzagok (Knoellighz 2436) NaVa (a state secret in that Sector)
Oenlaetsvaeg (Ghoekhnael 1938) NaVa
Tavok (Dhuerorrg 2026) Vm Members of Knaeleng
Gikfaksae (Ngathksirz 0124) Ve Empire of Varroerth
Ghongsaenua (Ngathksirz 3018, 3020, 3021 duplicates) Ve Empire of Varroerth
Kirzngoegh (Tuglikki 3212) VVar Empire of Varroerth
Augurgh (Tuglikki 3037) VAug United Followers of Augurgh
Ekaez (Gzaefueg 2904) NaVa
Llueng (Amdukan 2736) JuHl Julian Protectorate – Hegemony of Lorean
Gnoengoezvik (Kharrthon 2601) NaVa
Dzaeva (Knaeleng 0236) Ve Empire of Varroerth
Oknagoe (Ksinanirz 2801) NaVa

Tech Level 16 worlds of the Vargr Extents (in-review and unofficial)

Oeoengokdhis (Fa Dzaets 2107) Ve Empire of Varroerth
Dhillourr (Gzaefueg 1413) V5 or VRo5 Ruler of Five
Irreth (Knaeleng 0513) VK Koenotz Empire
Ksoenaek (Zao Kfeng Ig Grilok 0214) NaVa
Hellewanse (Ksinanirz 2138) Ve Empire of Varroerrth

Live via satellite and from stellar cartography on Serue (Knoellighz 1221), this is the Pakkrat.

 

[Condottiere]

You can always tell if a former Vargr polity has reached tech level sixteen by the trail of exploded stars.

 

[Condottiere]

Spoiler

Invested Vargr.

 

[Condottiere]

Vargr: With a Capital V for Vessel

Spoiler

Callsign Hot Dog


After some consideration, I've come to the conclusion that the most canny canines won't build many capital sized starwarships over five thousand tonnes, and when they do, it's likely a strike or an assault carrier.

It resolves three issues, it has the capability to enter combat, it acts as a mothership to non jump capable attack ships (which means that even if a crew does get an entrepreneurial itch, they have nowhere to go), and it provides an impressive screen to act as a buffer.

 

[flykiller]

Invested Vargr

the dog looks like he's thinking, "ok, he's the alpha, I have to do what he says, this will be over soon."

 

[The Pakkrat]

Orphaned Human in the Extents

An orphaned Human is raised by a Vargr family and Pack. It doesn't matter what ethnicity of Vargr, e.g. Gvegh, Ovaghoun, Urzaeng, Logaksu, or Suedzuk way out in the Enclaves.

Does the Human child gain a Charisma stat and a very low Social Standing?

How would that work if this question has not been posed before? I am aware of how Mongoose treats Human Charisma for those Humans travelling into the Extents. This seems different, a Human raised by the wolves.

From the Living Section of Net-7 News, this is the Pakkrat.

 

[Condottiere]

Gamewise, you could represent that as the time and energy the human character spent climbing up the greasy pole, dice modifier minus one or two for racial discrimination.

Vargr worship perceived success, somewhat more rationally than humans do.

 

[epicenter00]

Does the Human child gain a Charisma stat and a very low Social Standing?

I've never liked the idea of the stats being mutually exclusive. I think it's more apt that one stat would be "invisible" in an area dominated by one society or another.

The inviability of exclusiveness I think could be pretty easily illustrated by Archduke Brzk. Surely he has to have some Charisma among the Vargr. In fact, if you think about it, Brzk sort of gets to have his cake and eat, too. He has a high Social Standing (he's an Archduke, after all). For the Vargr, the guy has to have pretty high Charisma, regardless of if they think he's a sell-out or whatever; he has millions of "followers", his own loyal "pack" (his household cavalry), and so on. Unlike a Vargr leader, Brzk can't really be pulled down because his power derives from human institutions.

Back to the human raised by Vargr, the human would certainly have a Charisma stat - that's how Vargr operate and regardless of what shape of peg the human is, the human still has to fit into the round hole of Vargr society.

The Social Standing of said human would depend pretty much on how humans perceive this human-raised-by-Vargr. If the human is Charismatic and leads a large number of Vargr, human society may grant this human quite a high Social Standing.

 

[Condottiere]

What do you call a Vargr bank executive?

A loan wolf.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[flykiller]

dogue one

clicking onto this post is ... horrifying.

You can play Vargr as anything between Gnolls to the Rats of Nimh

how 'bout the entire range all at once?

whipsnade's comment about vargr being uplifted from primitive dog ancestors made me wonder - what exactly would their baseline characteristics be? sneaky loner fox? aggressive wolverine-like kill-everything direwolf? business-like alpha-breeder beta-loser packs? radically communistic african wild-dog? something else?

when my players encounter their next opposition ship I'm thinking of two vargr breeds, an alpha-beta dominance four-pack and a sixpack of fox-sized wild-dog engineers.

 

[Condottiere]

If aliens are humans in rubber suits, Vargr are furries in costume.

Most players seem disappointed if they can't play Vargr as dogs or wolves, though canon seems rather neutral on this, except that if left alone, Vargr civilizations are inherently unstable.

The baseline is either space vikings, or a more hyper version of us.

When it comes to Wing Commander, the cats are Klingons without the PG rating.

Canon makes it clear that centaurs are killer bunnies, without the cute part; you can't play them as My Little Pony, those are probably the crazy ones, isolated in their own little communities, and branded with a cutie mark to warn off the rest.