All Things Vargr

[GypsyComet]

Vargr are not dogs, or wolves, they were genetically modified 300,000 years ago and are as far removed from their genetically uplifted ancestors as we are from homo heidelbergensis.

The Himalayan Wolf is about the right age, based on genetic studies, to be available to the Ancients. The older distinct members of Canis are Coyotes and Jackals for the most part. The pack and litter instincts were retained in the Vargr, but that doesn't mean they weren't developed from a cross-section of early canids.

 

[Condottiere]

Vargr: Order of Battle

There is no order, whether before, during or after battle.

Though successful Vargr war bands have to be the ones that have a fairly organized structure, that establishes subgroups dedicated to support functions. And logistics.

I don't think there's that much jockeying for power in a logistics pack, beyond office politics, slacking off, and a lot of backbiting.

 

[Condottiere]

Vargr: Individualism

Despite being in one or more packs, Vargrs will want to express their individualism, in the context of their membership of said packs, which can range from more or less conformity to near outright rebellion, without actually being either bland nor crossing any red lines.

Part of that what might appear to be contradictory need of individual expression, is so that others are able to more easily identify and remember that individual, which means that any achievements the Vargr in question has accomplished are more easily ascribed to them.

Part of this involves customization of equipment, though it serves a more pragmatic purpose of adjusting it to be more easier to operate by that individual due to preferences and attributes, like not being quite that strong, and getting it to be lighter.

What started this chain of thought was the discovery in Mercenary that Weapons can be engineered.

A weapons engineer is going to be much in demand, as the Vargr try and squeeze out every last bit of advantage of their more antiquated weaponry against the Imperium. Or more likely, against each other.

You're also going to have a lot of legendary weapons, which should make reading the last will and testament of a distinguished warrior rather interesting.

 

[Timerover51]

I found the following comment on dire wolves while going through Bjorn Kurten's book, Before the Indians, covering the Pleistocene Epoch in North America. The quote comes from the caption for Plate 22, and refers to the remains of dire wolves found in the La Brea tarpits in California.

The dire wolf (Canis dirus) is more common in the tar pits than any other mammal species--remains of more than 1,500 individuals have been found. Its extremely powerful teeth and jaws suggest that it used to chew bones like a hyena.

It should also be noted that the Coyote, in its present form, Canis latrans, is also present in the tar pits, contemporaneous with the Dire Wolf.

On page 104 of the book, the following description if given of the dire wolf.

We may picture this animal as a largish wolf, rather heavier and shorter-legged than a timber wolf, and with a striking big head, armed with immensely powerful teeth and jaws. It clearly was not quite as fast and indefatigable a hunter as the living wolf, and it probably preyed on large and comparatively slow animals.

Given the depiction of the Vargr, see the Imperial Wiki, or Supplement 11, Library Data N-Z, they appear as closer to the Coyote than the Dire Wolf, based on the body shape and head.

 

[kilemall]

Re-reading Vilani and Vargr it seems even more unlikely that the Vargr could have become the major player they are. It looks like Vargr ships are TL 13 vs TL 14+ for the others shown in the alien books. They have the lowest tech levels of the major races. So it beggars imagination that they could be any sort of credible threat to either the Imperium or the Zhodani except as flea bites. I'd post more but it is a pain to type on the iPad.

Could be that they have competitive advantage in a tech scavenging environment during the various meltdowns, and during better times it's more cost-effective to 'keep them on a leash' and spar/parry them rather then force a knockdown dragout.

Besides, exactly which polity are you going to defeat to enforce a new border/terms of peace? The whole tribal raider thing means the next charismatic leader of the up and coming pack will abrogate a treaty they do not hold as binding upon a pack that did not contract it.

Don't look at the Vargr Extents as a classic empire- think of it more as Afghanistan and the Imperium as Great Britain, and the Imperium must cow the local tribes as part of the Great Game and to protect the Raj.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game

 

[mike wightman]

Don't look at the Vargr Extents as a classic empire- think of it more as Afghanistan and the Imperium as Great Britain, and the Imperium must cow the local tribes as part of the Great Game and to protect the Raj.

Now that is a brilliant idea - consider it stolen

 

[Condottiere]

Vargr: Man of the Year

I've never gotten the vibe that the Vargr ever considered having a common cultural tradition of any significant relevance, outside of the occasional theocracies that rise up.

Their cults centre around personalities, and they live very much in the present.

 

[Timerover51]

Don't look at the Vargr Extents as a classic empire- think of it more as Afghanistan and the Imperium as Great Britain, and the Imperium must cow the local tribes as part of the Great Game and to protect the Raj.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game

Hmm, the British in Kabul in 1841-42. Worth reading about.

The Afghan Wars 1839-42 and 1878-80, by Archibald Forbes

Found on Project Gutenberg at the following:

http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/8428/pg8428-images.html

The British never did really manage to "cow" the Afghans. Somehow, I cannot visualize the slow-reacting Imperium "cowing" the Vargr.

 

[Timerover51]

Hmm, the British in Kabul in 1841-42. Worth reading about.

The Afghan Wars 1839-42 and 1878-80, by Archibald Forbes

Found on Project Gutenberg at the following:

http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/8428/pg8428-images.html

The British never did really manage to "cow" the Afghans. Somehow, I cannot visualize the slow-reacting Imperium "cowing" the Vargr.

A good quote to sum up the result of the 1st Afghan War of the British.

and ere Ferozepore was reached they heard that the last of the Suddozye line had fled, that Akbar Khan had seized the throne in trust for his father, and that Dost Mahomed himself was even then on his way through the Punjab to resume his old dominion. And so the English army left secure on the throne of Afghanistan the dynasty they had spent so many millions of treasure and so many thousands of lives to overthrow.

From the Project Gutenberg EBook of The First Afghan War, by Mowbray Morris. which may be found here.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/50145/50145-h/50145-h.htm

 

[Condottiere]

Alexander had more success and left a more lasting impression.

 

[Timerover51]

Alexander had more success and left a more lasting impression.

He did? I do not think that any of the successor kingdoms had any control over Afghanistan, nor any control over the area that he marched through in India. With India, commercial contacts were retained, however.

 

[Condottiere]

He had an endgame, and I recall that Greek art supposedly influenced the styles of Indian and Chinese; it's also possible some of the pacifistic philosophical musings made it's way to the Middle East.

 

[kilemall]

Hmm, the British in Kabul in 1841-42. Worth reading about.

The Afghan Wars 1839-42 and 1878-80, by Archibald Forbes

Found on Project Gutenberg at the following:

http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/8428/pg8428-images.html

The British never did really manage to "cow" the Afghans. Somehow, I cannot visualize the slow-reacting Imperium "cowing" the Vargr.

Exactly.

 

[kilemall]

Had a further couple thoughts on this topic.

1. The Imperium doesn't need to crush the Vargr and in any event IMO cannot due to their tribal raider/decentralized nature.

The Imperium does need to worry about the Solomani, the Zhodani, and those nuke wielding herds, and so minimal resource/maximum effect would be the watchword.

So playing packs against each other, supporting one then the other, ensuring one pack never 'unites the clans' like classic British divide and conquer would be the way to go.

2. Since sophonts will tend to look at others through their own cultural lens, the Imperium would look like a SuperPack to Vargr.

And all that pledging fealty and nobility, etc. would likely be interpreted as meaning the Emperor was a megacharismatic figure of epic proportions.

In that instance the Emperor may loom larger to the Vargr then to his subjects and vassals.

As such, a simple note from the Emperor, positive negative or even diplomatically, may be worth fleets in the hands of an adept Archduke.

Conversely, if the Emperor is assassinated, civil war starts or even just a low level succession crisis erupts, the perceived 'charisma' of the Emperor and his Imperial MegaPack can wane in Vargr eyes and cause more pack leaders to chance bold action.

3. On the point of how the Vargr could be threats, if one thinks of them as steppe raiders, such peoples have produced military leaders like Genghis Khan and Timur, could be some real talent develops with all that pack struggle.

 

[flykiller]

their tribal raider/decentralized nature.

how are starships built by "raider/decentralized" societies based on charisma?

 

[GypsyComet]

Because they aren't quite that scattered. Multi-world polities are based far more on proximity and success. Nationalism as we understand it holds little to no weight with Vargr.

Instead of "The Old Country was so organized. The trains ran on time." it is "The Old Ruler was so organized. He made sure the trains ran on time."

 

[flykiller]

well, presumably building starships is an intensive exercise in intensive technology. this requires generations of expertise in math, chemistry, metallurgy, physics, and computer tech, none of which appeals to those attracted to charisma. it requires application of these disciplines over multiple generations in a sustained industrial effort to obtain, shape, and install the requisite materials and generate, test, and implement the requisite systems. and that simply is to make the ship appear. it then must be operated, and this requires generations of experience, expertise, and competence, to do so successfully.

(one may skip consideration of the fact that this concentration of wealth will attract decentralized tribal raiders - corporate and physical and criminal - for now ....)

any notion of charisma here seems more decorative than relevant. any society able to do all that is more likely to value sustained competence and to despise ephemeral charisma than to follow some upstart no matter how charismatic.

 

[Condottiere]

I think the Vargr have gone through all possible permutations of history and scientific discoveries, probably several times over.

My take on them is that a certain demographic are just instinctive engineers, and that at a certain critical mass, they can keep some form of interstellar civilization(s) going, long enough until their next regional renaissance.

 

[flykiller]

at a certain critical mass

not just mass, but also sustained focus, is required for any technological feat. charismatic leadership is inherently inimical to that. a rousing speech around the campfire and running off with sticks and rocks to attack the neighboring tribe is one thing, but a rousing speech to risk generations of achievement and wealth-accumulation of a major culture in a raid on a neighboring star system is another matter altogether.

 

[Condottiere]

I think that Vargr society go through regular periods of Dark Ages, but tends to be separate from the rest of the Diaspora, and that some attempts are made to maintain their knowledge and technical base, which is what leaders are for.

These societies either redevelop on their own, or a trading mission from a nearby system sells them the means.

Or colonizes them.