All Things Vilani Thread

[aramis]

One thing that's consistent in canon, and vital for understanding how T5.09 drives revolutionize travel (and why 5.09 high range drives don't increase the mass shadow, unlike 5.0)...

You don't have to aim precisely if you can hit the mass shadow of the target. Overshooting isn't a possibility that way.

Which is why Hop 1 will replace J2+. (J1 will be viable for local 1 Pc traffic only; even 2J1 is eclipsed by 1H1... and while you can't actually AIM H1 for 1-8 Pc, you can aim for 10 Pc directly behind the target... and, provided it's the planet, the accuracy rate is sufficient to collapse your wavefunction on your intended target instead of the plotted one...
(That the T5.0 version increased shadow size as well, well, it also meant Bound was eternally useless inside the galaxy, and Leap was useless within systems with oort densities and sizes similar to our own - the shadows essentially overlap into an apparent "shell"...)

Consolidating this, with GTIW...

The Vilani probably didn't know any better, and just aimed at the target object, full distance, never realizing that you could aim for distance as well as direction.

Until someone else figured that out and told them (intentionally or not)...

 

[Whipsnade]

I don't presume a mass precipitation requirement. I presume a need (by the Vilani) for a hard and predictable navigational fix, made immensely simpler by the presence of a physical target.

Which is mass precipitation in everything but name. It may not be required, but the Vilani understanding of jump drive assumes it is required.

It also fails to explain why the Vilani were able to cross the hundreds of one and two parsec gaps within the borders of the Ziru Sirka except for the Sirius Gap. The Ziru Sirka was larger than the Third Imperium and the Vilani crossed all those gaps with either jump1 or jump2 drives except for the Sirius Gap.

So, either:

Mass precipitation, "Lite" or not, is required or assumed to be required and the Sirius Gap was the only one of hundreds which somehow lacked a target.

Or:

The Vilani performed deep space jumps.

Which of those explanations requires special pleading? Which of those explanations adds more problems to an already problematic canon? Which of those explanations is the best application of Occam's Razor?

 

[Condottiere]

At a constant acceleration of 1 g, a rocket could travel the diameter of our galaxy in about 12 years; if the last half of the trip involves deceleration at 1 g, the trip would take about 24 years. If the trip is merely to the nearest star, with deceleration the last half of the way, it would take 3.6 years.[6]

I'm not an engineer, but I would presume the Vilani could have taken retro technology and crossed the gap if they wanted to.

 

[kilemall]

Which is mass precipitation in everything but name. It may not be required, but the Vilani understanding of jump drive assumes it is required.

It also fails to explain why the Vilani were able to cross the hundreds of one and two parsec gaps within the borders of the Ziru Sirka except for the Sirius Gap. The Ziru Sirka was larger than the Third Imperium and the Vilani crossed all those gaps with either jump1 or jump2 drives except for the Sirius Gap.

So, either:

Mass precipitation, "Lite" or not, is required or assumed to be required and the Sirius Gap was the only one of hundreds which somehow lacked a target.

Or:

The Vilani performed deep space jumps.

Which of those explanations requires special pleading? Which of those explanations adds more problems to an already problematic canon? Which of those explanations is the best application of Occam's Razor?

I always understood the Sirius jump to be logistical not technical jump issues, that the specialized tanker unit was extracting fuel from the star itself since no water or gas giant source was available and hence no regular or peacetime colonial traffic was economically viable.

Some of the Imperium maps had a second cul-de-sac system that had the same issue, although not as strategic.

So, a bridge that was not 'worth it' to build or maintain, apparently for either side as the Terrans don't get the transport route while advancing.

This could easily be an argument over some statement in a source I've never seen.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

At a constant acceleration of 1 g, a rocket could travel the diameter of our galaxy in about 12 years; if the last half of the trip involves deceleration at 1 g, the trip would take about 24 years. If the trip is merely to the nearest star, with deceleration the last half of the way, it would take 3.6 years.[6]

I'm not an engineer, but I would presume the Vilani could have taken retro technology and crossed the gap if they wanted to.

speed of light limits would mean you could not travel that fast, and engineering limits would place further restrictions on to how fast a ship can actually go.

all in all, its a lot slower than the simple maths would suggest, over long distance at least.

 

[McPerth]

"The range of the jump-1 drives first developed by UNSCA was insufficient to reach the nearest star— Alpha Centauri. It took several years before a US Space Force team based on Luna tried a mission which, in several trips, established an intermediate stopover and refuelling point about one parsec out." (Page 4, AM:6 Solomani)

Maybe this is a stupid question, but, while I understand the need (or at least convenience) of a navigation beacon in the midspace jump stop to ease knowing your exact positon and so navigation, why to build a refueling point?

I mean, I understand the need for them for greater jumps, as you cannot carry enough fuel for several jumps (at least without severely downsizing your payload), but for J1 ships?

You can easily devote another 10% to fuel and allow for 2 successive J1, without any need to refuel (after all, the Yacht is explicity so built, and we have references for the Fat Trader to have standarized dismountable tanks to do so too).

 

[flykiller]

Maybe this is a stupid question

(laugh) it's not. of course a j1 ship can cross 2-6 parsecs, if it carries the fuel. be a nasty long boring jump, but it's not a problem. unless you implement the rule that jump must terminate in a gravity well, but there's no particular reason why that must be so.

 

[GypsyComet]

Which of those explanations requires special pleading? Which of those explanations adds more problems to an already problematic canon? Which of those explanations is the best application of Occam's Razor?

Which takes the established psychology and sociology of the Vilani into account? They didn't take that last jump 1100 years prior because they were at the end of a multi-year logistics chain on the tail of a thousand year war, had a recently defeated and still hot occupied territory behind them, and no indications of jump capable civilization (since Earth's two largest civilizations were busy working on different definitions of the word "byzantine" at the time). A thousand years later, when Earth starts blaring radio signals, all it takes is two or three cautious local Governors in a row to forbid contact, particularly after the unmistakable signs of nuclear weapons use, to give the Terrans time to come to them instead.

And really, in one of the most distant Governor's seats from Vland in all of Vilani space, rocking the boat is probably the last thing those Governors wanted to do. Particularly with the Vegans nearby.

 

[Whipsnade]

I always understood the Sirius jump to be logistical not technical jump issues, that the specialized tanker unit was extracting fuel from the star itself since no water or gas giant source was available and hence no regular or peacetime colonial traffic was economically viable.

You're confusing Imperium's rules and map with Traveller's. RPG rules and the Sol subsector map. This happens all the time. It's perhaps the major reason why people during the playtest then and still now have trouble "grokking" the problem.

First, Imperium predates Traveller. It was not originally designed for Traveller, instead was partially "kit bashed" after the fact to vaguely fit Traveller.

Second, Imperium's maps do not match Traveller's maps of the same region. Some names are shared and some systems are somewhat in the same relationship to one another, but the maps are not the same.

Third, the FTL drive in the first, pre-Traveller version of Imperium is said to based on the Alderson Drive from MiGE. When the game was kit-bashed into Traveller canon, the label was changed to "jump" drive but the rules didn't change.

In Imperium, Sirius and another system are said to be "fuel free". Any ship moving through them requires the support of a tanker which produces fuel from the star's "atmosphere". The two odd stars thus act as a type of "terrain" on the game's map.

In Traveller, S:10 describes Sirius as an important way station for commercial traffic and RoF explicitly states Sirius' ... primary role is as a supply and refueling station, with hydrogen fuel mined from comets towed in from the Oort halo.

Thus Imperium the war game has refueling at Sirius difficult while Traveller the RPG does not.

The "Sirius Gap" question is just another way to broach the subject of deep space jumps. It's a specific example derived from a general question. That general question itself is the result of a faulty, but understandable, assumption: That Imperium the war game can be used as anything but the vaguest of guides to Traveller the RPG's Interstellar Wars Period.

(It's akin to someone believing FFW can be used to understand the actual 5th Frontier War despite the fact that the war game's map doesn't cover the entire war, not all the forces in the war are present in the game, jump fuel regulators are seemingly not used, and dozens of other problems.)

Well meaning, but mistaken, people wanted to "explain" why the Interstellar Wars were supposedly fought with fleets jumping along certain paths and no others; i.e. why didn't the Vilani or Terrans simply DSJ across the three parsec Sirius Gap or any other gap for that matter instead of attacking down the same "jump lanes" into the same systems over and over again.

The reason, of course, is that Imperium's rules don't allow you to jump across the Gap but Imperium's rules aren't Traveller's rules.

When SJGames wrote GT:RoF and later GT:IW they felt that they needed to include Imperium's mechanics for whatever reason. Thus in RoF they wrote a history of the wars which had both sides acting as if they were on Imperium's maps rather than Traveller's and in IW they further compounded the problem by claiming no one knew of the period how to make deep space jumps.

 

[Whipsnade]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but, while I understand the need (or at least convenience) of a navigation beacon in the midspace jump stop to ease knowing your exact positon and so navigation, why to build a refueling point?

Like many people, you've got it exactly backwards.

When jump between Regina and Ruie, you're not aiming a point a certain distance from Ruie. Instead, you're aiming at a point a certain distance from Regina, a point which the Ruie system happens to be passing by.

That's why MWM's jump space essay talks about jump having a physical accuracy of less than one part per ten billion and 3000km/parsec jumped.

There's no need for a beacon at the DSJ for "navigation" because (1) a jump's exit point is measured in relationship to it's entry point and (B) any signal a beacon emits would take years to reach the entry point.

 

[Whipsnade]

Which takes the established psychology and sociology of the Vilani into account?

That same psychology and sociology was in effect when the Vilani first explored with jump1 drives and then conquered with jump2 drives a region larger than the Third Imperium.

Are we going use the tired old excuse that the Vilani suddenly became stupid? That the Vilani, who write everything down and make a fetish of tradition, suddenly forgot the "tradition" that allowed them to cross hundreds of gaps across the Ziru Srika while they spent a thousand years hammered every known sentient species into a single polity?

When discussing ground combat, GT:IW talks about how, while the Vilani always follow "The Book", it's a great book with thousands of years of experience in it.

Then, when it comes to jump operations, GT:IW wants us to believe the Vilani somehow forgot part of the part of the book that had them crossing hundreds of gaps for thousands of years.

 

[LeperColony]

That same psychology and sociology was in effect when the Vilani first explored with jump1 drives and then conquered with jump2 drives a region larger than the Third Imperium.

Well, one reason the ZS expanded to a greater extent than the 3I could be because it was easier to expand back then. By the time the 3I is getting underway, it is expanding into space the ZS had already seeded with high technology.

Maybe back in the 1I days, space was a lot more friendly.

 

[GypsyComet]

Well, one reason the ZS expanded to a greater extent than the 3I could be because it was easier to expand back then. By the time the 3I is getting underway, it is expanding into space the ZS had already seeded with high technology.

Maybe back in the 1I days, space was a lot more friendly.

They expanded to their final borders via a thousand years of war...

 

[McPerth]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but, while I understand the need (or at least convenience) of a navigation beacon in the midspace jump stop to ease knowing your exact positon and so navigation, why to build a refueling point?

Like many people, you've got it exactly backwards.

When jump between Regina and Ruie, you're not aiming a point a certain distance from Ruie. Instead, you're aiming at a point a certain distance from Regina, a point which the Ruie system happens to be passing by.

That's why MWM's jump space essay talks about jump having a physical accuracy of less than one part per ten billion and 3000km/parsec jumped.

There's no need for a beacon at the DSJ for "navigation" because (1) a jump's exit point is measured in relationship to it's entry point and (B) any signal a beacon emits would take years to reach the entry point.

It seems I didn't explain myself as well as I tried... Let me try to fix that.

The navigation beacon would not be to help aiming the incoming ship, but to help knowing the exact position of the outcoming one, so that it can aim its target.

E.g.; if a J1 ship wants to go from Terra (SR1827) to Barnard (SR1926) making midspace stop in SR1826, a navigation beacon in 1826 would help it to know its position before the second jump (from 1826 to Barnad) by telling it the exact position in 1826, so taht it can calculate the bearing and distance it must aim (as you say).

And my question stand, why to build also in 1826 a refuelling point, when a J1 ship an easily have fuel for 2 (or more) successive jumps?

 

[GypsyComet]

And my question stand, why to build also in 1826 a refuelling point, when a J1 ship an easily have fuel for 2 (or more) successive jumps?

I would need to confirm in some of Canon's more obscure corners, but I'm not sure we know when or precisely why jump dimming went from necessity to tradition. I can think of a couple scenarios in which Vilani ships would not want to carry extra fuel, because it wouldn't necessarily all be there after the first jump.

 

[McPerth]

I would need to confirm in some of Canon's more obscure corners, but I'm not sure we know when or precisely why jump dimming went from necessity to tradition. I can think of a couple scenarios in which Vilani ships would not want to carry extra fuel, because it wouldn't necessarily all be there after the first jump.

See that they could even carry fuel for 3 or 4 jumps without problema, so they sill sure have fuel for two consecutive jumps.

Midspace refuelling points only make sense at greater jumps, and then only if you don't need a large space body (that will probably be a source of fuel by itself) is needed to make the stop.

 

[aramis]

The calibration point isn't needed for routine traffic if that traffic is 2J1 capable...

The whole "We need a star to end at" issue is best explained by astrogation being essentially aimed direct fire.

To hit a ship using a DF laser, I point at it, and all that matters is that my angle is correct; I don't need to know how far it is. Essetially, it's a 2-dimensional problem - a bearing (angle & azimuth).
To hit a ship using an airburst Fuel-Air explosive, I have to know EXACTLY how far, so that the round detonates above the tank and engulfs it in fire. that's a three-D solution - Bearing + range

If Jump navigation is a 3D problem, Jump shadows allow turning it into a 2D one. Aim THROUGH the shadow, and stop on the near side of it.

If they didn't understand the formulae, but knew the correct bearing to plug in... just using the maximum distance makes it easier to calculate.

 

[kilemall]

You're confusing Imperium's rules and map with Traveller's. RPG rules and the Sol subsector map. This happens all the time. It's perhaps the major reason why people during the playtest then and still now have trouble "grokking" the problem.

<snip>

When SJGames wrote GT:RoF and later GT:IW they felt that they needed to include Imperium's mechanics for whatever reason. Thus in RoF they wrote a history of the wars which had both sides acting as if they were on Imperium's maps rather than Traveller's and in IW they further compounded the problem by claiming no one knew of the period how to make deep space jumps.

I suppose this is the heart of it, I bought GT:IW for I and my Imperium sparring partner without any of the intervening Traveller rulesets beyond CT, so it looked like a well-accepted canon bit to me.

Silly me, I'm an apostate coming in from the wilderness in three decades so I haven't done my 'holy script' paying and reading.

 

[kilemall]

That same psychology and sociology was in effect when the Vilani first explored with jump1 drives and then conquered with jump2 drives a region larger than the Third Imperium.

Are we going use the tired old excuse that the Vilani suddenly became stupid? That the Vilani, who write everything down and make a fetish of tradition, suddenly forgot the "tradition" that allowed them to cross hundreds of gaps across the Ziru Srika while they spent a thousand years hammered every known sentient species into a single polity?

When discussing ground combat, GT:IW talks about how, while the Vilani always follow "The Book", it's a great book with thousands of years of experience in it.

Then, when it comes to jump operations, GT:IW wants us to believe the Vilani somehow forgot part of the part of the book that had them crossing hundreds of gaps for thousands of years.

Perhaps it was intentionally suppressed? Or only accessible need to know information?

Within a couple of generations, if the 1stI needed to curtail troublesome exploration, it could vanish from their collective common cultural/technical knowledge but still be in the Book of Secret Stuff.

 

[kilemall]

Don't need beacon sats I think, should be able to shoot position with radio/light noisy regular variable stars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cepheid_variable

Their regular transmissions have been going all along, require no setup and would be measured as a matter of course from each new system.

I suspect one could get a precise clock time out of them as well, another key tool in navigation.