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Alternative jump fueling strategies

Carlobrand

SOC-14 1K
Marquis
I'd have taken this to the IMTU forum except I can't see why most of these wouldn't work fine in the OTU. It occurs to me also that all that jump fuel might not be needed, at least not for a freighter on a regular run.

Item 1-A: draw on the High Guard II rule that a ship can take two turns to power up for jump and the TCS rule (page 39) that a ship can transfer fuel to another in two turns. The ship carries half the needed fuel for jump, connecting to a tanker to simultaneously draw in the second half while feeding the first half to the jump drive during the first turn of powering up, then disengaging from the tanker while burning the second half to initiate jump at the end of the second turn. The tanker would need tanks at least twice as big as the amount of fuel being sent over in order to transfer the needed volume in one turn, but that's not a serious handicap.

This allows a freighter to carry more cargo; the added space could be taken as cargo holds equipped with collapsible tanks, giving the freighter flexibility to use the tanker-assist method at the high quality starports and revert to the more standard fueling arrangement when visiting low quality starports. Also allows a war fleet to jump and arrive at target with partially filled tanks, giving them an ability to make a short jump out of the combat if needed.

(Following this idea, one could have an x-boat with the canon 40 dT fuel tank: 20 dT of power plant fuel for 2 weeks operation plus 20 dT jump fuel. The x-boat spends two turns revving up its jump drive per High Guard rules on breaking off by jump, but in the first turn it simultaneously draws 20 dT fuel from the tender while feeding its own 20 dT of jump fuel into the jump drive, then it jettisons the fuel line and draws on that newly delivered fuel to complete the fuel burn in the second turn and initiate jump. In this model, the X-boat comes in at 100 dT and has 9 dT available for a second stateroom and a bit of cargo, but it must draw on the x-boat tender to make any jump of more than 2 parsecs.)

Item 1-B: similar to 1-A but drawing on the drop tank rules to permit a ship to jump with no inboard jump fuel. If a ship can use drop tanks, then it can also suck fuel from a suitably equipped tanker via hosing, using the same methods that suck fuel quickly from the drop tank into the jump drive. Hosing can be ejected same way the drop tank is.

This allows a tanker to carry a lot more cargo (with, as in 1-A, the newly added cargo space equipped with collapsible tanks for flexibility). Also allows a warfleet to arrive on target with full tanks. It means a re-imagined X-boat could use the X-boat tender as its principal source of fuel, carrying only enough for the power plant (20 dT for two weeks operation) and using the saved space for communications equipment, data storage, room for high-priority passengers and such.

(Alternately, following this idea one could re-imagine the x-boat as an actual boat: a 65dT 12-meter diameter sphere with a telescoping boom extension deploying a conical jump net [Supplement 9, page 22] to fill it out to 100 dT and give it the classical x-boat ice-cream-cone profile during jump, the craft sucking in fuel from the tender as it might from a drop tank to perform the jump burn. On arrival, the craft draws in the boom and stows the jump net, becoming a more easily stored sphere.)

(Unrelated to that idea but possibly solving some of our problems with fitting boats in the tender, the rear cone could be treated as a 65 dT sphere socketed into a 40 dT demountable cone-shaped tank, with the sphere incapable of jump without the cone attached, but with the cone tank detaching to allow the two parts to be more easily loaded into an x-boat tender cargo bay.)

Item 2: MT, if one accepts Starship Operator's Manual description of the tech, has decided that the jump drive is at least in part a "high yield fusion power plant," consuming a prodigious (compared to the normal power plant) amount of fuel to generate a prodigious amount of power quickly, albeit at a much lower degree of efficiency than the normal plant. Unstated but presumably also important is that it accomplishes this with a vastly smaller plant than would be needed were the power generated by a normal power plant. Under this model, one could presumably dispense with the fuel and draw the power itself in from some external source, provided only that the external source provided the same volume of power and that the connections could be jettisoned quickly enough at the instant of jump.

How big the external power plant needs to be depends on how much power a jump drive is actually generating for all those dTons it burns: the consumption rate of a jump-1 drive for a 100 dT ship (10 dT) is about equal to that of a 10,000 EP power plant (10,000 dT over 28 days, or a bit under 10 dT in 40 minutes). Assuming the jump drive is AS efficient as the power plant in converting fuel to power, then you need an external power plant delivering EP equal to 100 times the mass of the ship times the jump rating. If it is less efficient, then you need less power plant. Of course, a power plant that big is mighty expensive: I'm getting something like Cr1120 times the mass of the ship times the jump rating to pay for the cost of that power plant, assuming the power plant is a TL15 model and in constant use 24/7. So, at minimum more than 20 times what it would cost to power the ship through option 1-B. Probably not an option unless there was some specific reason you wanted to power a jump by delivering power instead of fuel, but an interesting thought exercise.
 
I like the thinking(visions of a Nostromo-like fuel-processing/fighter-carrier/jump station that is built on a small chunk of ice)....wondering though;

How far does one ship have to be from another when initiating jump to avoid problems?

What are the odds something will go wrong with those fuel lines and quick-disconnects (GURPS had a modular ship or two that blew up for some-such reasons)? Frequent maintenance by skilled Engineers maybe (say roll 10+ for a mishap, DM's Engineering, Int, -1 per month without maintenance)
 
...How far does one ship have to be from another when initiating jump to avoid problems? ...

I think we explored that once, but I can't find the thread. As I recall, there wasn't really an issue about interfering with the jump unless the other ship was absurdly close, and gaining the necessary separation takes under a minute even at only 1 G.

...What are the odds something will go wrong with those fuel lines and quick-disconnects (GURPS had a modular ship or two that blew up for some-such reasons)? Frequent maintenance by skilled Engineers maybe (say roll 10+ for a mishap, DM's Engineering, Int, -1 per month without maintenance)

Well, there's no description of it happening in a standard TCS fuel transfer; there's no rules on a transfer problem during a combat turn. Presumably, if something happens you write off the connecting hose and use a backup until you can get some time to repair it. Hydrogen in vacuum isn't volatile, so worst case scenario in 1-A is the crew has to replace a broken line, not worth bothering with a roll.

With respect to 1-B, it's presumably the same as the odds of failure of a drop tank. There's a Traveller News description of that happening once, if I recall, but no rules on the subject. However, it strikes me that pulling fuel from another ship is safer than the drop tank option. If your drop tank fails to disengage fully, you risk going into jump with significant excess volume, which could quash the jump; if that news item or the MT Ship Operator's Manual is to be believed, there's also risk of catastrophic failure of your capacitors, but the game itself has no rules on that. On the other hand, if a fuel hose fails to disconnect, it is the weak link between you and that other ship: the two ships still part ways, and the problematic fuel hose just breaks. You end up jumping while trailing a broken hose, which I don't see as being significant enough to create a jump problem. Might create a minor headache for the engineer when you arrive and have to repair the fuel port, but again not worth bothering with a roll unless you want to give the player playing the engineer a hard time.
 
How far does one ship have to be from another when initiating jump to avoid problems?

100 diameters (clarified in T5). Which still isn't clear enough for me.

So I use an idealised base diameter of a sphere with the same tonnage.
 
100 diameters (clarified in T5). Which still isn't clear enough for me.

So I use an idealised base diameter of a sphere with the same tonnage.

Works from the center of mass?

I presume T5 doesn't do that density thing we talked about applying to suns and such.
 
no, it doesn't.

Pity, I thought that was rather clever.

If the density of the object is irrelevant, then the drop tanks have to be jettisoned with enough force to clear the jump area before jump. They have to fly off at least 100 of their own diameters in however much time the ship has between draining them and going into jump, to avoid creating a risk of misjump. Not a difficult task, but it does imply some risk if the tanks don't jettison properly.
 
Pity, I thought that was rather clever.

If the density of the object is irrelevant, then the drop tanks have to be jettisoned with enough force to clear the jump area before jump. They have to fly off at least 100 of their own diameters in however much time the ship has between draining them and going into jump, to avoid creating a risk of misjump. Not a difficult task, but it does imply some risk if the tanks don't jettison properly.

Actually, they have to be 100D of the ship's clear to not be damaged. So, if you want to reuse them, they need some Force applied.

They don't stop the ship jumping, tho', unless the ship's a tug.
 
Clarify, please.

How far does one ship have to be from another when initiating jump to avoid problems?

100 diameters (clarified in T5). Which still isn't clear enough for me.

So I use an idealised base diameter of a sphere with the same tonnage.

Actually, they have to be 100D of the ship's clear to not be damaged. So, if you want to reuse them, they need some Force applied.

They don't stop the ship jumping, tho', unless the ship's a tug.

If density is not an issue, then the drop tanks affect the ship the same as another ship or any other mass: they create a risk of misjump if the ship is within 100 (of that object's) diameters, no? The effect is to the ship trying to jump, not the mass that the ship happens to be close to, yes? I've never heard that a ship trying to jump would have a harmful effect on a world or other body that it happened to be within 100 diameters of. It was always about the ship having a chance of misjump.
 
Clarify, please.





If density is not an issue, then the drop tanks affect the ship the same as another ship or any other mass: they create a risk of misjump if the ship is within 100 (of that object's) diameters, no? The effect is to the ship trying to jump, not the mass that the ship happens to be close to, yes? I've never heard that a ship trying to jump would have a harmful effect on a world or other body that it happened to be within 100 diameters of. It was always about the ship having a chance of misjump.

A ship is not affected at all by a smaller object than itself.

The smaller object, however, is. To recover the jump tanks, they need to clear the ship's 100D limit.

A tug, however, might have drop tanks larger than itself, which when dropped present a hazard.
 
A ship is not affected at all by a smaller object than itself.

The smaller object, however, is. To recover the jump tanks, they need to clear the ship's 100D limit.

A tug, however, might have drop tanks larger than itself, which when dropped present a hazard.

Is that a T5 thing? And what is the logic there? An object affects the space around it except when it's next to a larger object? Admittedly the larger object exerts a greater influence, but that does not mean a smaller object exerts no influence. I'm not understanding the logic, unless it's just a random ruling intended to prevent undesirable game effects.

And how exactly are objects that are not jumping affected by being within the jump shadow of an object that is jumping? I get there's the jump flash and the whole opening of the "door" business, but I didn't think that affected the ship's entire jump shadow region. Is that again a T5 ruling? And what precisely is the effect?
 
Is that a T5 thing? And what is the logic there? An object affects the space around it except when it's next to a larger object? Admittedly the larger object exerts a greater influence, but that does not mean a smaller object exerts no influence. I'm not understanding the logic, unless it's just a random ruling intended to prevent undesirable game effects.

And how exactly are objects that are not jumping affected by being within the jump shadow of an object that is jumping? I get there's the jump flash and the whole opening of the "door" business, but I didn't think that affected the ship's entire jump shadow region. Is that again a T5 ruling? And what precisely is the effect?

Technically, yes, a T5 thing... however... in reading the Jumpspace article by Marc from JTAS, it's clearly what Marc's intended for years.

The smaller objects within the 100D limit are shattered by the jumping ship.
 
Technically, yes, a T5 thing... however... in reading the Jumpspace article by Marc from JTAS, it's clearly what Marc's intended for years.

The smaller objects within the 100D limit are shattered by the jumping ship.

JTAS 24? "Entering jump is possible anywhere, but the perturbing effects of gravity make it impractical to begin a jump within a gravity field of more than certain specific limits based on size, density, and distance."

Okay, we've discussed that before. All matter exerts a gravitational influence. Question then was whether small masses exerted an influence sufficient to impact a jump. Gravity equivalent to that exerted by an earth-size world at 100 diameters is about the same as that exerted at the surface of a 234-mile wide asteroid, so there was some question as to whether something the size of a ship or smaller could exert any effect.

However, T5 decided answer was yes. Okay, no prob: things weren't lining up precisely in CT anyway because the way the square-cube law affected very small worlds was not being reflected in the jump limit. A size 1 world had 1/8 the surface gravity of an earth-size world so should have had a jump limit closer than 100 diameters (about 71 diameters) but didn't, so we figured some other factor was involved. In fact, I think that's where the idea of doing it in terms of tidal stress instead of gravitational strength came in. So, no surprises.

That a mass' influence is not counted when the mass is smaller than the jumping ship - that is a surprise. It's not hinted at in the article, unless I misunderstood something. And shattering objects - that's entirely new. Is that only the drop tanks, or would that include something like a heavily armored fighter? How would it be played out in terms of damage in a role-play situation, if some poor player found himself cast-off in a drifting lifeboat when the ship jumped?
 
Pity, I thought that was rather clever.

If the density of the object is irrelevant, then the drop tanks have to be jettisoned with enough force to clear the jump area before jump. They have to fly off at least 100 of their own diameters in however much time the ship has between draining them and going into jump, to avoid creating a risk of misjump. Not a difficult task, but it does imply some risk if the tanks don't jettison properly.

how long does jump take? The description in Starship Operating Manual could be seconds or minutes....most likely not 30 minutes. According to High Guard a ship can expend the power over 2 turns (60 minutes), but presumably the "jump bubble" would only form at the end...but in 30 minutes even a gently nudged object would seem likely to move greater than 100 ship diameters away...say a 100m ship, so 10,000 meters or 10km (or would 10dia, or 1km, be enough to avoid the shattering effect?)...in 30 minutes this would require a velocity of 5.55 m/s (or ~1g thrust for 1 second, then coast, or a lower g for more seconds, then coast)...if 10dia is enough, then .1g for 1 second (a gently nudge)
 
how long does jump take? The description in Starship Operating Manual could be seconds or minutes....most likely not 30 minutes. According to High Guard a ship can expend the power over 2 turns (60 minutes), but presumably the "jump bubble" would only form at the end...but in 30 minutes even a gently nudged object would seem likely to move greater than 100 ship diameters away...say a 100m ship, so 10,000 meters or 10km (or would 10dia, or 1km, be enough to avoid the shattering effect?)...in 30 minutes this would require a velocity of 5.55 m/s (or ~1g thrust for 1 second, then coast, or a lower g for more seconds, then coast)...if 10dia is enough, then .1g for 1 second (a gently nudge)

In CT, jump initiation takes between 20 and 40 minutes - it requires 2 HG turns.

In MGT, it takes between 6 and 12... because it takes 2 turns.
 
In CT, jump initiation takes between 20 and 40 minutes - it requires 2 HG turns.
To clarify: It requires one turn (20 minutes) if you can produce enough energy to power the jump drive in one; it can do it in two turns (40 minutes) if you can produce enough energy in two. If you can't produce the energy in two turns, the jump must be aborted.

So if you can produce the energy in 20 minutes, the rules allow you 20 minutes' grace where you're "holding it in". You should be able to get the empty drop tanks far enough away in that time (Note: I haven't actually done the math, so I could be wrong).

However, the rules may be simplified. Perhaps you actually have to jump very soon after filling the jump drive with the energy it requires, giving you only minutes or seconds to get rid of the drop tanks.


Hans
 
according to MT Starship Operator's Manual, pg.12 the energy from the jump drive is temporarily stored in the "jump capacitors" (Zuchai power crystals)...but can stay there for 2-3 hours before bad things happen.

Further. pg.13 shows a flow-chart of the jump process; The "Charge-up" happens in the pre-jump phase (presumably this is the 1-2 turn charging in high guard, etc). Then the grid is "warmed up" (20% of stored energy released)...at this point the jump can still be aborted

Then the remaining 80% power is carefully fed into the grid, at this point jump cannot be stopped, and waste-heat floods space and the jump bubble forms - this is presumably what destroys smaller things within 100d

so, the original proposal seems to be workable (though if anything prevents the jump from happening within 2-3 hours, the ship would likely be destroyed when the zuchai crystals decomposed...

of course, if you do not use MT, none of this may matter.
 
according to MT Starship Operator's Manual, pg.12 the energy from the jump drive is temporarily stored in the "jump capacitors" (Zuchai power crystals)...but can stay there for 2-3 hours before bad things happen. ...

This is one of several points of difference between CT and MT.

...Further. pg.13 shows a flow-chart of the jump process; The "Charge-up" happens in the pre-jump phase (presumably this is the 1-2 turn charging in high guard, etc). Then the grid is "warmed up" (20% of stored energy released)...at this point the jump can still be aborted

Then the remaining 80% power is carefully fed into the grid, at this point jump cannot be stopped, and waste-heat floods space and the jump bubble forms - this is presumably what destroys smaller things within 100d ...

The waste heat or the jump bubble? There's a lot of energy involved, but I don't think the waste heat's enough to destroy to a range of 100 diameters.

The "jump bubble" - that's an interesting issue. A ship's jump field defines a volume within which the ship is protected from jump space. For that field to then damage objects 100 diameters from the ship, we'd have to postulate that the field also emanates something that was destructive to matter outside of the ship to a range of 100 diameters.

A more likely scenario is the opening to jump space itself causing problems. Perhaps physical laws in the real universe are altered within a given range of a jump space opening. The ship, being within its jump field, is unaffected. Other matter near the opening is subjected to those changes, possibly resulting in molecular bonds breaking down and the objects disintegrating or becoming embrittled.

[/QUOTE]...so, the original proposal seems to be workable (though if anything prevents the jump from happening within 2-3 hours, the ship would likely be destroyed when the zuchai crystals decomposed...

of course, if you do not use MT, none of this may matter.[/QUOTE]

Ayup.
 
I favor CT, with dabblings of MT added where it makes sense to me.

Where are the details for CT jump referenced? The MT stuff is all I could find...but I do not have the magazines or anything but the "best of" JTAS
 
I favor CT, with dabblings of MT added where it makes sense to me.

Where are the details for CT jump referenced? The MT stuff is all I could find...but I do not have the magazines or anything but the "best of" JTAS

JTAS 24 - Jumpspace
 
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