Ammunition

[atpollard]

Splitting this conversation off from another thread:

As an aside I generally assign type of cartridge by TL, so they change, with no alteration in price/availability, like so:

TL 5-8 brass casing
TL 8-10 caseless
TL 11-13 caseless OR binary
TL 13+ = gauss always.

This does nothing in a weapon's performance vs. armor either, it's just my way of acknowledging TL change.

I thought about that, but decided that a colonist with a TL 5 lever rifle wouldn't be comfortable trying to use TL 9 caseless rounds, even if it ought to work (not likely, IMO), and that that TL 9 version would have more muzzle energy, which might be unsafe for his rifle. So I assumed that the Imp standard version is the TL5 brass case version, available throughout the Imperium - at least in Starport extrality zones, if nowhere else. That meant the caseless or binary (or plastic Dardick trounds, if you remember them!) versions would be local manufacture.
So PCs revolving around a handful of worlds near each other might look for a TL 9 caseless 9mm Magnum, because they like the higher damage, but wide-ranging Travellers who rarely step foot on the same world in a year would buy the more widely available .357 magnum brass rounds to use in the same gun.
I went by the principle of lowest common denominator of user for the product. Caseless and binary would be driven by military and law enforcement needs in more sophisticated societies, and by the time those are as perfected as brass cartridges, gyrojet/accelerator weapons, snub guns, and gauss weapons will be overtaking the technology (I call the first 2 TLs gyrojet or rocket, and switch to accelerator for the more proven later TL versions).
I also really liked the 2300 AD FTE-10 - a honkin' huge gauss rifle, firing a big, relatively slow (in comparison to 4mm needles) round. The stock gauss rifle is based on the assault rifle concept. Civilian needs would mean semi-auto versions and varied calibers, not just high-cap, high-speed sliverguns. Gauss shotguns, big game hunting rifles/sniper rifles, and other LE applications, such as anti-civilian vehicle guns would proliferate within short order.
On a different note, I think the Imperium would mostly not be very concerned about modern assault rifles - too old and settled a tech. Weapon control advocates in the Imperium would look on those as the sort of thing to get around to banning some time after the sexier, more modern and potentially dangerous lasers and gauss weapons. The average citizen might intellectually realize they're all deadly, but who really thinks about muskets and arquebusses as threats today? Similarly, I think the real world, modern fetish for assault rifles, battle rifles, smgs, and similar auto-capable weapons will pass, and by the 58th century, an AR-15 or AK-47 will be thought of much as we now think of a percussion revolver or Quigley's Sharps rifle.
Thoughts?

Weapons might be backwards compatible but not ammo. Sort of like a black powder '9mm standard' round becomes a smokeless powder '9mm special' round and a caseless '9mm magnum' round. A '9mm magnum' gun will fire '9mm special' and '9mm standard' rounds, but a '9mm standard' gun either will not chamber or comes with a warning not to use 'special' or 'magnum' rounds.

On the other hand, there is no reason that a revolver could not be designed for a TL 8 'magnum' cartridge and built at TL 4 ... it just requires a thicker barrel wall to withstand the greater pressure.

At Tech Level 4 you do not have the high-strength steel for the revolver cylinder that you have at Tech Level 8, nor the harder steels for the barrel. If you really wanted to do that, you would need to reduce the number of rounds in the cylinder to 4 or 5, and make sure that you can replace the barrel easily to compensate for the higher bore erosion from the much hotter powder that you are using.

As for caseless rounds, those would have to be fired from weapons designed to give a very high level of gas sealing, so you are not going to fire a caseless round, even if it would fit the chamber properly from a weapon design for standard brass-cased rounds.

And some Tech Level 4 breech-loading actions, such as the falling-block action on the US Army 1873 Springfield breech-loader, firing the government .45/70 round, are inherently weak and cannot fire safely a hotter loaded .45/70 round that could be fired from say a Ruger single-shot rifle.

For more discussion on firing modern hot loads from pre-1900 weapons, I would highly recommend consulting a good handloading manual.

 

[atpollard]

I concede the point on caseless ammo (with the caveat that we have so few caseless weapons in the real world that we don't really know what the 'ultimate' caseless round will be like).

I am not sure about the pre-1900 weapons, though.
I freely admit that pre-1900 weapons WERE NOT designed to fire modern hot loads and to attempt to do so would be dangerous. On the other hand, we are speculating about a starship landing at the starport of a world with a roughly "Wild West" technology base to deliver crates of .44 magnum ammunition. I suspect that Mr. Colt would be able to find a way to adapt his weapons to use these superior rounds.

Yes, the six shooter might need to become a four shooter and the barrel and frame would need to be much heavier than a modern .44 mag revolver, but I think that it could be done. The fact that no one built a pre-1900 weapon for ammo that did not exist yet does not actually prove that they could not have built one.

A related question for TL is the fact that Chromium was used commercially from the first century (TL 1?), so could Stainless steel have been manufactured using 1880 technology if its properties had been known and a market for it had existed (like barrels for .44 mag revolvers)?

 

[Timerover51]

I concede the point on caseless ammo (with the caveat that we have so few caseless weapons in the real world that we don't really know what the 'ultimate' caseless round will be like).

I am not sure about the pre-1900 weapons, though.
I freele admit that pre-1900 weapons WERE NOT designed to fire modern hot loads and to attempt to do so would be dangerous. On the other hand, we are speculating about a starship landing at the starport of a world with a roughly "Wild West" technology base to deliver crates of .44 magnum ammunition. I suspect that Mr. Colt would be able to find a way to adapt his weapons to use these superior weapons.

Yes, the six shooter might need to become a four shooter and the barrel and frame would need to be much heavier than a modern .44 mag revolver, but I think that it could be done. The fact that no one built a pre-1900 weapon for ammo that did not exist yet does not actually prove that they could not have built one.

A related question for TL is the fact that Chromium was used commercially from the first century (TL 1?), so could Stainless steel have been manufactured using 1880 technology it its properties had been known and a market for it had existed (like barrels for .44 mag revolvers)?

I was not saying that it would not be possible to design weapons using Tech Level 4 materials to fire modern cartridges, just that the weapons would have to be specifically made for the modern cartridges.

As for the use of Chromium, the US Navy was chrome-plating it large-caliber gun barrels shortly after 1900, to prolong barrel life and reduce barrel erosion. However, it was expensive. You are confusing chrome-plating the interior of the barrel with making the barrel from stainless steel. If you want to reduce bore erosion, you chrome-plate the interior of the barrel, or use some form of case-hardening, such as nitriding the barrel.

Also, the .44 Magnum was developed from the older .44 Russian, developed in the 1870s by Smith and Wesson for a large order of revolvers for Imperial Russia. To prevent the much higher pressure cartridge from being fired in older top-break Smith and Wesson revolvers, the case was slightly lengthened so that the newer cartridges would not fit the older revolver cylinder. The .44 Magnum would and will fire cartridges sizes like the old .44 Russian. The same thing was done with the .357 Magnum cartridge with respect to the .38 Smith and Wesson.

For a good book on cartridge development, I would recommend purchasing a recent edition of Cartridges of the World, as that covers just about all metallic cartridges, black and smokeless powder, from the early rimfires to current popular wildcats.

 

[atpollard]

I was not saying that it would not be possible to design weapons using Tech Level 4 materials to fire modern cartridges, just that the weapons would have to be specifically made for the modern cartridges.

Strictly as blind speculation (for fun):
Given the Traveller OTU background, is it likely that a typical revolver built on a TL 4 world WOULD be designed to accommodate TL 5+ smokeless powder rounds (and their higher barrel pressures)?

[This reminds me of a joke picture I once saw for a .50 BMG revolver.] :rofl:

 

[Timerover51]

Strictly as blind speculation (for fun):
Given the Traveller OTU background, is it likely that a typical revolver built on a TL 4 world WOULD be designed to accommodate TL 5+ smokeless powder rounds (and their higher barrel pressures)?

[This reminds me of a joke picture I once saw for a .50 BMG revolver.] :rofl:

The recoil would break the firer's wrist probably. And accuracy would be about nil.

By the way, I pretty much ignore all of the handwavium high tech level weapons like lasers and gauss weapons. As for caseless ammunition, for small arms, I make sure that a PC is hit on a ammo pouch and the ammo in the pouch explodes, mangling him. Gyrojets, for Zero-G combat maybe, but at close range, they are harmless unless you are firing explosive rounds.

 

[atpollard]

As for caseless ammunition, for small arms, I make sure that a PC is hit on a ammo pouch and the ammo in the pouch explodes, mangling him.

Why the harsh treatment for caseless? Wouldn't a pouch of standard ammo be just as likely to explode if shot?

I imagined that if stable explosives are possible, then stable caseless propellant doesn't seem an unreasonable assumption.

 

[atpollard]

Gyrojets, for Zero-G combat maybe, but at close range, they are harmless unless you are firing explosive rounds.

I know that is the standard treatment, but I always wondered about the possibility of a large heavy Gyrojet bullet (perhaps in a sabot) that was fired like a subsonic shotgun slug or very large pistol round (to limit recoil) and then accelerated to supersonic velocity over say 3 meters. Nothing too magic, just an expensive round to give a weapon a long 'effective barrel length' and a short 'actual barrel length'. Shoots like a pistol, hits like a rifle.

 

[atpollard]

The recoil would break the firer's wrist probably. And accuracy would be about nil.

Agreed, but a status symbol for the cybernetic crowd ...

"My BFR is bigger than yours."

[Actually, thinking about it a little more, performance would really suck. That barrel is way too short for all that gas to expand and push the bullet. Better to leave off the bullet and use the cartridge as a short range flamethrower. ]

 

[Timerover51]

Why the harsh treatment for caseless? Wouldn't a pouch of standard ammo be just as likely to explode if shot?

I imagined that if stable explosives are possible, then stable caseless propellant doesn't seem an unreasonable assumption.

I am not really interested in arguing with you about the merits and problems of caseless ammunition. You run your universe your way, I will run my universe my way, and never the twain shall meet.

I know that is the standard treatment, but I always wondered about the possibility of a large heavy Gyrojet bullet (perhaps in a sabot) that was fired like a subsonic shotgun slug or very large pistol round (to limit recoil) and then accelerated to supersonic velocity over say 10 meters. Nothing too magic, just an expensive round to give a weapon a long 'effective barrel length' and a short 'actual barrel length'. Shoots like a pistol, hits like a rifle.

There is a "minor" problem with accuracy much beyond 25 yards or so. I have seen patterns of Double 00 buckshot at 25 yards that were tighter than a Gyrojet pattern. However, if you want to do it, go ahead. See above comment.

Agreed, but a status symbol for the cybernetic crowd ...

"My BFR is bigger than yours."

I work with weapons, I do not joke about them except when it comes to the dumb jet jockies and their ignorance about what the stuff they drop can and cannot do.

 

[atpollard]

Sorry for the offense.
I was just engaging in idle speculation about future weapon progression in an imaginary universe.
Have a good day.

 

[DaveChase]

I think a possibly good example of firearm and caliber that would display these multi level TL's

454 casull pistol

It can not only shoot the 454, but the 45 LC and the .410.

Also the 45 LC can be (and regularly is) loaded using BP instead of modern smokeless powder and is still effective at taking out game, killing an individual and etc.

The 454 revolvers use a double lock (standard one in back and another on on the front) on the cylinder to handle the extra pressures of the 454 round.

They are big and heavy.

I have shot the 45LC P+ through a Judge and the recoil was something else. I would not want to regularly fire such a round though the Judge as I am not sure it could handle long term stress of such firings.

Now if you updated the material that the Judge was made up in Traveller terms, I think it would be fine.

Another example of a firearm that had the magnum quality to it but only shot BP would the Colt Walker. Even today using only BP that pistol has brought down some good size game.

Just some general ideas of firearms in the real world that could possibly fit the comments made in this thread.

Dave Chase

 

[Darkwing]

I am not really interested in arguing with you about the merits and problems of caseless ammunition. You run your universe your way, I will run my universe my way, and never the twain shall meet.

It seemed to me to be a request for your reasons for such a harsh opinion of caseless.

There is a "minor" problem with accuracy much beyond 25 yards or so. I have seen patterns of Double 00 buckshot at 25 yards that were tighter than a Gyrojet pattern. However, if you want to do it, go ahead. See above comment.

Well, GCA 68 really killed the gyrojet before it finished teething. In a centuries long timeline like the Imperium, there's been plenty of time for it to get past that.

I work with weapons, I do not joke about them except when it comes to the dumb jet jockies and their ignorance about what the stuff they drop can and cannot do.

The BFR comment seemed to me to be joking more about the retard mentality of some would-be gun owners, rather than the gun itself.

 

[Darkwing]

Carried over from the originating thread:
This is why, IMTU, the Imp law on it is that those standardized brass rounds match specs across TLs, across the Imperium. A TL5 manufacture 9mm mag brass round from the reign of Marava, bought on Sylea, matches a TL8 manufacture 9mm magnum round from the Solomani Rim War. If you make it to match the TL's capability, then it is no longer able to be sold as Imp Standard, and becomes Local goods. Similarly, I figure there's a market in faux-standard goods, which is where you get caseless rounds designed to fit and work in conventional firearms.
I also assume that the standard, since it retards development of the normal bullets, both boosts the local, wildcat rounds market, and the ensuing wildcat firearms market, and it also retards the devlopment. If a .475 is one of the most powerful rounds you can buy anywhere, how many times has a more powerful one been made locally? Since it doesn't make the cut to get standardized, inertia means people forget, and a few decades later, someone else does it again, never knowing about the previous ones.
I decided this was deliberate. Instead of banning powerful rounds, the Imperium simply set the standards list, and let market inertia and the failure to become a standard kill off the outliers, AS A MATTER OF POLICY.
Based on this, I also figure weapons made in local calibers can be considered one Law Level lower than the type should be WHEN taken anywhere it and it's ammunition is not available.
Sure, you can buy that Slovakian AK-knockoff in a wierd caliber. Sure, you can take it to Chicago. Good luck getting replacement ammo!
If enough people use that clause to change the availability of the ammo, then it's no longer one LL less.

 

[rancke]

I am not really interested in arguing with you about the merits and problems of caseless ammunition. You run your universe your way, I will run my universe my way, and never the twain shall meet.

There's no need for your universe to meet Pollard's, but unless your universe meets the Traveller Universe, it's an inappropriate subject matter for this forum. This is a forum for discussing technology and related topics for use in the Traveller Universe. If you say something on this forum, people are going to assume that you're talking about the Traveller Universe. If you're challenged, the reply "Yeah, well, that's how I do it" doesn't cut it.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

A related question for TL is the fact that Chromium was used commercially from the first century (TL 1?), so could Stainless steel have been manufactured using 1880 technology if its properties had been known and a market for it had existed (like barrels for .44 mag revolvers)?

Stainless is softer than tool steel; a hundred years ago, the rockwell tested hardness of many gun receivers is uneven, for example are the M1903 springfield problems. Our metallurgy is far better today, as well as mechanical design, which allows for the modern designs.

 

[Timerover51]

I think a possibly good example of firearm and caliber that would display these multi level TL's

454 casull pistol

It can not only shoot the 454, but the 45 LC and the .410.

Also the 45 LC can be (and regularly is) loaded using BP instead of modern smokeless powder and is still effective at taking out game, killing an individual and etc.

The 454 revolvers use a double lock (standard one in back and another on on the front) on the cylinder to handle the extra pressures of the 454 round.

They are big and heavy.

I have shot the 45LC P+ through a Judge and the recoil was something else. I would not want to regularly fire such a round though the Judge as I am not sure it could handle long term stress of such firings.

Now if you updated the material that the Judge was made up in Traveller terms, I think it would be fine.

Another example of a firearm that had the magnum quality to it but only shot BP would the Colt Walker. Even today using only BP that pistol has brought down some good size game.

Just some general ideas of firearms in the real world that could possibly fit the comments made in this thread.

Dave Chase

The .44 Walker Colt was one of the most powerful black powder revolvers ever made, even with more gas leakage from the cylinder-barrel connection than would be acceptable today. With a shoulder stock, it made for a pretty good carbine. The .45 Colt has been used for hunting for a long time as well. If you read any books on African hunting, some Englishmen used it to hunt lions from horseback, although the lion won on a periodic basis.

As for a real world weapon that could be used in the Traveller universe, around 1900, there was a camping weapon called the Marble Game Getter. It was an under-over gun, with a .22 Rimfire barrel on top and a .44/40 barrel below. The .44/40 barrel fired a .44/40 cartridge with a round ball, as it was a smoothbore, so that it could also use either a .44 shot cartridge, or a .410 shotgun shell. The reason for the smoothbore was not to mess up the shot pellet pattern with rifling. It was killed when the laws prohibited detachable stocks on long barreled hand guns. However, it would make a great survival weapon in Traveller with the .22 and .44 combination.

Load the .44/40 with modern powder to the .44 Magnum level, and load the .410 shell with a inner, not-rotating slip sleeve to reduce the spin on the pellet load. Have a few shells for each barrel in a detachable floating stock, and 3 more boxes as part of the survival kit and you are ready to go.

 

[DaveChase]

The over and under, small caliber over a larger shot caliber, are still made today.

.22 is the most common top barrel with 20g or 12g for the bottom (in order of commoniness)

Dave Chase

 

[atpollard]

Pretty cool and it is still available as a pistol with an 18 inch barrel and a folding stock.

Marble Game Getter

 

[DangerousThing]

Sorry for the offense.
I was just engaging in idle speculation about future weapon progression in an imaginary universe.
Have a good day.

I retread the thread and FWIW I do not see anywhere that you have given offense. You made a joke that I among many saw as funny. If somebody has had their sense of humor surgically removed, perhaps they should just ignore jokes rather than make insulting comments.

Just my opinion, of course.

D. Jay Newman

 

[Timerover51]

Pretty cool and it is still available as a pistol with an 18 inch barrel and a folding stock.

Marble Game Getter

I did not know that someone had resurrected it, but that is an impressive price tag.