Ammunition

[Jame]

My thought in the other thread was that higher-tech ammunition would be a bit more widespread - it's small and easily transported, plus better materials. Though for me, gyroc rounds are TL8-9 and not as widespread as caseless as they're less suitable for non 0-G situations.

TL 9-12 caseless ammo would be the most common IMTU as that's what most worlds would be, or at least be interested in, plus it's the most versatile. There would be TL 8 and TL 13+ caseless but it'd either be native or specifically made for export. I should point out that, for my universe, caseless and binary propellant would be fairly interchangeable for gameplay, i.e. if a PC decides he wants his guns to be that, then they are - I am not changing the gameplay for it because it's fluff.

Lasers are like Light Sabres, some people like them and some people don't. I actually see handgun lasers as pretty high tech IMTU (circa TL 14 for the heavy 'Star Wars Blaster' to TL 16 for the light 'Star Trek Hand Phaser') ... but those are just my preferences and intended mainly to spread out slug-thrower handgun progression from Brass Cartridge (TL 4+) to Caseless (TL 7+) to Gyroc (TL 10+) to Gauss (TL 13+).
Your Mileage will almost certainly Vary.

My mileage varies in that Start Wars Blasters are TL 11 or so.

 

[aramis]

My thought in the other thread was that higher-tech ammunition would be a bit more widespread - it's small and easily transported, plus better materials. Though for me, gyroc rounds are TL8-9 and not as widespread as caseless as they're less suitable for non 0-G situations.

TL 9-12 caseless ammo would be the most common IMTU as that's what most worlds would be, or at least be interested in, plus it's the most versatile. There would be TL 8 and TL 13+ caseless but it'd either be native or specifically made for export. I should point out that, for my universe, caseless and binary propellant would be fairly interchangeable for gameplay, i.e. if a PC decides he wants his guns to be that, then they are - I am not changing the gameplay for it because it's fluff.

My mileage varies in that Start Wars Blasters are TL 11 or so.

IMTU, caseless doesn't take over due to the vacuum proofing and reliability of cased rounds. Some worlds do use them, but most don't, and the 3I doesn't.

Accelerator rounds don't take over, ever, but are marine weapons for EVA use.

And, of course, the venerable chemical laser pistol is TL12, as is the Gauss Rifle and Gauss Pistol - suboptimal to cased slugthrowers, really, but not enough so that they don't get some units grip.

Star Wars basters are, IMTU, TL18 or so. They are personal plasma weapons.

 

[SpaceBadger]

Frangible Ammo

Have any of you ammo grogs considered or implemented frangible ammo for use on ship-board and other situations where one wants to minimize damage beyond the target? I mean stuff like modern Glaser "safety slugs" that are designed to fragment on impact, so they are unlikely to penetrate and do damage beyond something like a sheetrock wall, and also will not ricochet.

I could picture a similar concept although obviously different design for flechette or gauss-gun ammo, with the needles made of something that will shatter on impact rather than punching through.

These kinds of rounds should have some added damage to a flesh-and-blood target, since they should dump all of their kinetic energy into the target with no blow-through, and possibly make larger wounds as well.

I haven't worked out any numbers myself, just thought these would be useful on ship-board and wanted to throw the idea out, because some of you seem fairly knowledgeable on the subject.

 

[DaveChase]

Plastic shot for the shot guns. Great on soft targets but complete non-effective on any sort of armor or heavy clothing.

Heavy furred animals take min to no damage from them also.

Dave Chase

 

[Timerover51]

Have any of you ammo grogs considered or implemented frangible ammo for use on ship-board and other situations where one wants to minimize damage beyond the target? I mean stuff like modern Glaser "safety slugs" that are designed to fragment on impact, so they are unlikely to penetrate and do damage beyond something like a sheetrock wall, and also will not ricochet.

I could picture a similar concept although obviously different design for flechette or gauss-gun ammo, with the needles made of something that will shatter on impact rather than punching through.

These kinds of rounds should have some added damage to a flesh-and-blood target, since they should dump all of their kinetic energy into the target with no blow-through, and possibly make larger wounds as well.

I haven't worked out any numbers myself, just thought these would be useful on ship-board and wanted to throw the idea out, because some of you seem fairly knowledgeable on the subject.

About the only way that the frangible projectile that you describe would work is if it hit pretty much bare flesh, or very thin clothing, and then you would at best get a nasty surface wound, which likely would not be disabling. Any other persons hit by rounds that miss would be equally vulnerable. Basically, trying to make a harmless, effective projectile is a contradiction in terms.

 

[DaveChase]

...
Basically, trying to make a harmless, effective projectile is a contradiction in terms.

LOL


Very good point.

Dave Chase

 

[aramis]

About the only way that the frangible projectile that you describe would work is if it hit pretty much bare flesh, or very thin clothing, and then you would at best get a nasty surface wound, which likely would not be disabling. Any other persons hit by rounds that miss would be equally vulnerable. Basically, trying to make a harmless, effective projectile is a contradiction in terms.

It's not bystanders in the room that the MagSafe was intended for. It's the guy the firer can't see because of the intervening sheetrock.

And MagSafes don't penetrate two layers of 3/8" sheetrock with an air gap. They stop in the second sheet. 1st if using 5/8" and small rounds.

They also tend to do little damage to non-electronic non-fragile devices hit by them. They still shatter glass nicely.

The data MagSafe used to put out (ca 1993) showed that the penetration was lower than proportional for the powder load (which was also slightly reduced). The dump disruption was wider than normal but shallower.

Effect on Class II vest wearers was directly comparable to ball ammo - tho the effect on the vest itself was different - fewer layers penetrated, but energy dump on target through the vest not significantly reduced.

I remember the materials because they were for "Law Enforcement Professionals Only" - my roommate at the time was an armed security guard.

 

[SpaceBadger]

Thanks, aramis, that is the kind of slug I was talking about (well, I just made up the stuff about flechettes). I was wondering if anyone had made a rule for these in Traveller.

 

[aramis]

Thanks, aramis, that is the kind of slug I was talking about (well, I just made up the stuff about flechettes). I was wondering if anyone had made a rule for these in Traveller.

Not that I've seen.

 

[Jame]

IMTU, caseless doesn't take over due to the vacuum proofing and reliability of cased rounds. Some worlds do use them, but most don't, and the 3I doesn't.

IMTU caseless rounds are vacuum-proof (show me proof they aren't!) and do take over.

But seriously, do show me proof they aren't.

 

[aramis]

IMTU caseless rounds are vacuum-proof (show me proof they aren't!) and do take over.

But seriously, do show me proof they aren't.

They are not solid propellant, but propellent and a binder. Vacuum dessicates many substances, and barring evidence otherwise, I don't trust the binders to be vacuum stable.

Further, vacuum exacerbates heat issues with firearms due to the lack of convection. This much increases the risk of cookoff of caseless rounds.

 

[Greylond]

Personally, I'd think that a TL11+ Military would have solved caseless problems with overheating AND caseless ammo doesn't need O2 to fire.

So, yea, TL8, Caseless has problems with Overheating. As the TL goes up, reliability goes up.

 

[aramis]

Personally, I'd think that a TL11+ Military would have solved caseless problems with overheating AND caseless ammo doesn't need O2 to fire.

So, yea, TL8, Caseless has problems with Overheating. As the TL goes up, reliability goes up.

Adding liquid cooling is the only way to solve the overheat given lack of convection.

 

[Greylond]

Not the only thing, you use different materials used in the propellant. That's what is currently being researched. Again, higher TL in material science could conceivably solve that problem.

 

[aramis]

Not the only thing, you use different materials used in the propellant. That's what is currently being researched. Again, higher TL in material science could conceivably solve that problem.

The energy of the propellant still has to go somewhere. In Vacuum, that's the thermal resevoir of the weapon's mass, and blackbody radiation. And/or the wielder. You get almost as much transfer to the weapon, and 99% of it has nowhere to go.

Vacuum is a wonderful insulator.

 

[rancke]

The energy of the propellant still has to go somewhere. In Vacuum, that's the thermal resevoir of the weapon's mass, and blackbody radiation. And/or the wielder. You get almost as much transfer to the weapon, and 99% of it has nowhere to go.

Vacuum is a wonderful insulator.

We could add a magic[*] energy sink to the gun.

[*] That is to say, a hyper-technological energy sink, not at magic one of course, fie.​

Hans

 

[aramis]

We could add a magic[*] energy sink to the gun.

[*] That is to say, a hyper-technological energy sink, not at magic one of course, fie.​

Hans

If it's doing anything other than ejecting heat-absorbing mass, it's bullshittium, aka "Magic".

Caseless and cased rounds both use explosions and/or detonations (they are different, technically) to convert propellant to gas and to heat it to expansion.

Requiring a higher ignition temp for the ammo doesn't negate the fact that bullet casings themselves are an ejected thermal mass which helps remove heat from the weapon, and also means a higher temp primer is needed, and just shifts the whole issue slightly. (Since I shoot lefty, I can assure you ejecting rounds are painfully hot.)

The best bet for vacuum fired weapons - cased, firing from the open bolt. Maximum removal of heat in vacuum, because the chamber heat has to go through the casing's thermal mass to ignite powder early, and that takes time in contact. Plus, the casing itself is a primary means of reducing the heat in the chamber.

Remember: we're talking propellants which ignite between 150°C and 250°C... and burn at 800°-2000°C, typically around 1800°±50°. (Note that lower temperature also results in lower expansion, and thus lower force on the bullet.)

 

[rancke]

If it's doing anything other than ejecting heat-absorbing mass, it's bullshittium, aka "Magic".

Hence the smiley.

However, while it would be "magic", it wouldn't be magic. Magic is fantasy "magic"; SF "magic" would be bullshitium or some similar technological handwavium solution.


Hans

 

[Greylond]

Again, you are focusing on heat problems of early caseless ammunition. Already there are caseless ammo types that are more resistant to heat and fired using an electric primer. Will the gun be hotter in a vaccum? Yes. But that doesn't mean that the ammo will have the same cookoff risk at TL12 as at TL8. Different propellent material and different material/construction of the gun. Currently LSAT Ammo is vastly improved over the ammo used in the G11.

 

[DaveChase]

I always wonder if caseless ammo some day wouldn't be ignited by a small laser instead of electrical or primer style.

A high intensity laser yet very small could work. That way the caseless ammo could have a binder that was more resistent to weather and other factors.

Dave Chase