Ammunition

[Darkwing]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. There is no .454 Casull Judge. I was suggesting an enhanced modern version of the Judge similar to the old Colt Buntlines ... start with a .45/.410 revolver, beef it up to .454 Casull, extend the barrel to 12 inches, add a folding stock ... the result is a 5 shot pistol/carbine capable of shooting .454 Casul for big game, .410 shot shells loaded with birdshot for snakes or buckshot for groups and .45 LC or ACP for basic handgun functions.

Wouldn't mind seeing it.

The basic need met by the LeMat, as I understand it, was to provide multiple light shots and one big shot in a single weapon. The .45 LC/.410 shotgun revolver provides 5 or 6 shot capability with the flexibility of any combination of large caliber handgun to buckshot to birdshot. IMHO that trumps a lot of the LeMat capability and flexibility. Add in .454 Casull as an optional round, and you have darn near the upper limit on handgun power (short of the laser which might be high power and recoilless).

As it was 150 years ago, yes. As an idea for Traveller, I think it expands the options more than the Judge/Governor/etc. does, because you can mix two different weapon types. A snub pistol with a center barrel firing a .475 Wildey or .50 AE, with an optional shotshell in that caliber? Ouch!

As an aside from CT, the original Laser Pistol had a carbine-size receiver with a pistol grip and short barrel ... that is a little bulky to fit in the center of a revolver.

Yeah, that makes sense for TL9. But Traveller should have seen the TL 15 laser as a lot smaller and without the need for a separate powerpack.

 

[DaveChase]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. There is no .454 Casull Judge.
...

Pardon me?

RAGING JUDGE M513 REVOLVER .454 CASULL, .45 COLT, .410 GA - 6 SHOTS

If you thought the Taurus Judge line couldn’t get any better, you have to see this. The new Raging Judge Magnum shoots the .454 Casull round in addition to delivering the same popular combo revolver of the original Judge models, and packs a giant 6-round cylinder. Besides added capacity, the Raging Judge features the famous red “Raging Bull” backstrap for added cushioning and will be available in both 3-inch and 6-inch barrels.

http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=702&category=Revolver

Dave Chase

 

[atpollard]

Pardon me?

OK, reality trumps my fantasy again.

So 6 shot, .454 Casull is already a given ... now we just need a Raging Judge Hunter with a longer barrel (12") ... and an aftermarket folding stock.

Since our pistol-carbine will probably want a two-hand grip, which would you prefer ... a Picatinny rail with a vertical grip or a traditional forend like the Thompson G2 Contender pistols?

I suppose that a semi-auto version, then an extended magazine, then a selective-fire full-auto/burst version would be a logical upgrade path.
The old Colt .45 1911 design is a pretty reliable starting point too.

A .410 buckshot full-auto 'mad minute' from a coffin magazine ... now that's a party.

 

[atpollard]

As it was 150 years ago, yes. As an idea for Traveller, I think it expands the options more than the Judge/Governor/etc. does, because you can mix two different weapon types. A snub pistol with a center barrel firing a .475 Wildey or .50 AE, with an optional shotshell in that caliber? Ouch!

Yeah, 150 years ago materials science was the limiting factor, but now the human limits on recoil are being slightly exceeded. A .50 AE revolver can be made, but who wants to put 1000 rounds through it to get really good at hitting what you aim at? It will end up like the English Longbow-men with deformed arms from practicing with the high draw weights ... only with micro-fractures in the forearm and prosthetic wrists.

While I didn't mention it at the time, I really liked your earlier concept of a LeMat Gyrojet-Revolver. The light recoil center tube opens up the possibility of .50BMG anti-material power in a handgun (at least at fairly short range).

Lasers are like Light Sabres, some people like them and some people don't. I actually see handgun lasers as pretty high tech IMTU (circa TL 14 for the heavy 'Star Wars Blaster' to TL 16 for the light 'Star Trek Hand Phaser') ... but those are just my preferences and intended mainly to spread out slug-thrower handgun progression from Brass Cartridge (TL 4+) to Caseless (TL 7+) to Gyroc (TL 10+) to Gauss (TL 13+).
Your Mileage will almost certainly Vary.

 

[sabredog]

I might be completely off base, but I am aware of Metal Storm ... amazing to watch it fire and they have a Grenade machinegun version ... but I have a psychological hard time visualizing a future world of muzzle loading firearms []

I really need to see a better reload system to view MetalStorm as a real contender ... but that is just me.

The entire barrel (or cluster of barrels is the magazine and swapped out in the small arms version. You have a frame, and the barrels snap to it - empty them and you swap them out. It is really pretty ingenious.

 

[McPerth]

IMHO, the main reason to keep the revolvers, SMGs and so in Traveller starships' troops, even with the availability for higher TL weapons, is just the opposite of what you're telling here: it's low power shoot. Low tech planets aside, again IMHO, the reason for this is to avoid collateral damage to the ship systems, that could easily be produced by heavier firepower.

SMGs and revolvers, OTOH have enough stoping power to keep the people at bay, while may use ammunition that has low probablilty to produce those collateral damages (as long the oponent you're facin is not armored, of course).

And, s I envision it, the main advantage for starship crews and LOE for carring a revolver instead of an automatic handgun in Traveller is the capability to have diferent ammunition types without them being in a determinate sequence.

IMTU the standar ammo load for a snub revolver for shi pcrews is 5 tranq and 1 HEAP rounds, so they have the capability to defend against kidnapers (they are assumed to bo unarmored, as most times they try to pass for inofensive passengers) without lethal force and retain some capability (the HEAP round) to defend agains some armored ones.

Of course, this ammo configuration may be chnged as needed, if you expect to need more lethal force (e.g. against boarding pirates).

 

[aramis]

The entire barrel (or cluster of barrels is the magazine and swapped out in the small arms version. You have a frame, and the barrels snap to it - empty them and you swap them out. It is really pretty ingenious.

Metalstorm is also pretty much non-reloadable - barrel replacement increases ammunition expenses considerably - not the least by virtue of at least doubling the size of the ammunition.

Metalstorm has a place - but it's in low duration high intensity. Emergency guns, not mainline combat weapons, except for point defense, where the ability to dump rounds fast is less expensive...

I'm looking at it from the supply side - if I get 10 rounds in a rifle barrel, and that barrel takes 100 rounds of space, I'm far better off with you using a detachable box that takes only 12 rounds of space for 10 rounds. Further, the barrel weight increases my shipping mass. And, for practical purposes, metalstorm is not field reloadable, so the barrel cost is added to the ammo cost.

Then, tactically - it takes 1-4 seconds to change a clip, and twice that a belt (assuming one doesn't simply connect belts) by competent infantrymen. Even with a quick change barrel, that's still 10-30 seconds. In the face of the enemy, that's an eternity.

Further, changing barrels changes sighting. Each barrel is slightly different, so it means having to resight the weapon... but with metalstorm, that's not an option since the mag is the barrel, and sight adjustment takes a minimum of 2 rounds...

There are many reasons metalstorm is unlikely to ever be used routinely for small arms and field guns. It's great for last ditch point def guns in rear areas, or for robots with low ammo needs but a need to be able to dump rounds fast.

 

[atpollard]

As a brief aside on the topic of LeMat revolvers in Traveller, MJD included one in Kitbag 2: Sidearms and I included it in the Cover illustration available in the COTI gallery.

 

[Darkwing]

IMHO, the main reason to keep the revolvers, SMGs and so in Traveller starships' troops, even with the availability for higher TL weapons, is just the opposite of what you're telling here: it's low power shoot. Low tech planets aside, again IMHO, the reason for this is to avoid collateral damage to the ship systems, that could easily be produced by heavier firepower.

SMGs and revolvers, OTOH have enough stoping power to keep the people at bay, while may use ammunition that has low probablilty to produce those collateral damages (as long the oponent you're facin is not armored, of course).

And, s I envision it, the main advantage for starship crews and LOE for carring a revolver instead of an automatic handgun in Traveller is the capability to have diferent ammunition types without them being in a determinate sequence.

IMTU the standar ammo load for a snub revolver for shi pcrews is 5 tranq and 1 HEAP rounds, so they have the capability to defend against kidnapers (they are assumed to bo unarmored, as most times they try to pass for inofensive passengers) without lethal force and retain some capability (the HEAP round) to defend agains some armored ones.

Of course, this ammo configuration may be chnged as needed, if you expect to need more lethal force (e.g. against boarding pirates).

All good points, but at least partly a meta-game explanation. SNub guns would replace conventional firearms almost completely if that were the primary reason. My reasoning, lower-tech colonies, in conjunction with yours, explains in-universe, why they're still so prevalent, even dirt-side.

 

[DaveChase]

OK, reality trumps my fantasy again.

So 6 shot, .454 Casull is already a given ... now we just need a Raging Judge Hunter with a longer barrel (12") ... and an aftermarket folding stock.

Since our pistol-carbine will probably want a two-hand grip, which would you prefer ... a Picatinny rail with a vertical grip or a traditional forend like the Thompson G2 Contender pistols?

...

A .410 buckshot full-auto 'mad minute' from a coffin magazine ... now that's a party.

Circuit Judge 45LC/410Ga 18.5' Bl Tactical Black Syn Stk

The new Circuit Judge takes the most overwhelmingly successful revolver in recent history and has extended its range for incredible hunting and shooting. Now you can fire .410 GA. 3-inch Magnum shotshells, .410 GA. 2.5-inch shotshells and .45 Colt ammunition. In any order you please, without switching barrels. The Circuit Judge delivers amazing versatility, accuracy and simplicity. It includes the latest in modern features like a red fiber optic front sight, yoke detent, transfer bar and the Taurus Security System®.

Now if only they would make it in a 454 casull, I would be all over it. Specially if I could get afolding stock for it.

There are a few full auto .410 shotguns but not many. There was one that would be very nice to have but never got past prototype because they were going to market primarily for the United States and our BATF said no.

If you want a full auto shotgun that is real to day, check out the AA-12.

Dave Chase

 

[McPerth]

All good points, but at least partly a meta-game explanation.

I'ts possible. The first time I really rationatized that it ws to justify the many Auto-pistols and SMGs seen in AHL...

SNub guns would replace conventional firearms almost completely if that were the primary reason. My reasoning, lower-tech colonies, in conjunction with yours, explains in-universe, why they're still so prevalent, even dirt-side.

Once again, I'm not an expert (to say the last) i nweapons, and less so in ammunition, so take my thoughts for what thei're worth...

The snub weapons (as the Accelerator rifles, for what's worth) are excellent weapons for low gravity, but they have several drawabaks, most of them comming from its main advantage: low muzzle velocity. As most of those problems come from ammunition, I guess I'm not going too much off topic.

1> ammunition is more expensive (in CT, revolver ammo is 5 Cr, Snub 10 Cr; In MT revovler ammo is 3-8 Cr, snub 10-20)

2> due to the low velocity, snub ammunition is either tranq, HE or HEAP. In the tranq case, armored targets become quite difficult to hit (in MT, even lightly armored targets are protected), in the HE and HEAP cases, collateral damages are not avoided. I guess they have not enough velocity for just kinetic damage ammunition, so none is featured in Traveller (EDIT:I've just realized how my signature explains that :rofl: END EDIT)
.

3> while a good short range weapon, HE and HEAP may not be used at close range, as you can be affected by the explosion (for CT: infered from AHL rules, I don't find it now in rules, but HE is outright not allowed at close range; for MT, danger space is 1.5)

4> less accurate at medium range (in CT, not reflected in MT) and not able to shoot farther.

I know point 3 may seem incongruent (if not outright contradictory) with my post above, but I guess you'll understand what I mean.

 

[Timerover51]

Out of curiosity, how many of you who are discussing the use of these extremely powerful revolvers have ever fired one? Aside from a pretty nasty recoil, there is a fair amount of sheer noise, and also muzzle blast. My experience is that most people have problems shooting the standard .45 Auto, much less a monster revolver.

Also, if you miss your intended target, that round does not suddenly evaporate and become innocuous. It is still heading downrange, to eventually be stopped by something.

 

[aramis]

.454cas isn't hard to fire, provided you don't try to brute force it. You have to let it rise, and let it raise your arm with. And not stiff-arm the weaver stance.

 

[Darkwing]

I have fired .44 mag, .41 mag, .45acp, .45 LC. The .44 mag I have fired redline loads using norma powder - my uncle was teaching me a lesson at the time!
Never shot a .454 casull or a .475 wildey, nor a .50 ae.
In rifles: .223, 7.62 nato, .243, .270, 30-06, plus others less powerful. I'd like to shoot the .17 cal and .10 calibers sometime, just to try them.

 

[Greylond]

Out of curiosity, how many of you who are discussing the use of these extremely powerful revolvers have ever fired one? Aside from a pretty nasty recoil, there is a fair amount of sheer noise, and also muzzle blast. My experience is that most people have problems shooting the standard .45 Auto, much less a monster revolver.

Also, if you miss your intended target, that round does not suddenly evaporate and become innocuous. It is still heading downrange, to eventually be stopped by something.

Totally agree. I've fired just about everything up to and including a .44 Mag Revolver. I didn't like it because I had trouble controlling it and never had a desire to fire anything larger.

.45 or 9mm are my personal choice.

 

[DaveChase]

Out of curiosity, how many of you who are discussing the use of these extremely powerful revolvers have ever fired one? Aside from a pretty nasty recoil, there is a fair amount of sheer noise, and also muzzle blast. My experience is that most people have problems shooting the standard .45 Auto, much less a monster revolver.

Also, if you miss your intended target, that round does not suddenly evaporate and become innocuous. It is still heading downrange, to eventually be stopped by something.

Yes, and your point is?

There are a lot of individuals who can not handle the Keltec PF 9. It is the smallest and lightest (or second lightest) 9mm on the market.

On the other hand (literally weak hand) I farm small bale horse hay. The only loads that I have shot that required both hands for repeated use (firing) is the 45LC P+ and some of the Thompson single shot big bore caliblers.

The 454casull in a 3 inch barrel is a brute to shoot, but in the 6 and 8 inch, it is not bad at all (for me). But I do know that for some others even that extra barrel and weight are not enough for one handed firing.

Dave Chase

 

[Greylond]

Not sure about the other rule sets but MgT has Recoil stat for weapons. It's a mechanic that I'm really liking because it is an easy way of simulating the effect of a character's Str when firing a weapon.

 

[aramis]

Not sure about the other rule sets but MgT has Recoil stat for weapons. It's a mechanic that I'm really liking because it is an easy way of simulating the effect of a character's Str when firing a weapon.

So does TNE. I prefer TNE's. (Same as T2K 2.2)

 

[Timerover51]

The following is taken from a book by Sir Samuel Baker on his explorations to find the sources of the Nile in the early 1860s. It is a vivid demonstration of the hazards of firing more modern ammunition in an older firearm.

There was no game at Ombrega, therefore I employed the interval of two days in cleaning all the rifles, and in preparing for a fresh expedition, as that of the Settite and Royan had been completed. The short Tatham No.10 rifle carried a heavy cylinder, instead of the original spherical ball. I had only fired two shots with this rifle, and the recoil had been so tremendous, owing to the heavy weight of the projectile, that I had mistrusted the weapon; therefore, when the moment arrived to fire off all the guns preparatory to cleaning, my good angel whispered a providential warning, and I agreed to fire this particular rifle by a long fishing-line attached to the trigger, while the gun should be fastened to a tree. It blew all to pieces! The locks were blown entirely away, and the stock was shattered into fragments: nothing remained but the thick end near the shoulder-plate. I had received a mysterious presentiment of this; had I fired that rifle in the usual manner, I must have been killed on the spot. The charge was five drachms, which was small in proportion to the weight of the cylindrical projectile. This may be a warning to such sportsmen who adopt new-fashioned projectiles to old-fashioned rifles, that were proved with the spherical bullet, which in weight and friction bears no proportion to the heavy cylinder; nevertheless, this rifle should not have burst, and the metal showed great inferiority, by blowing into fragments instead of splitting.

At this time, barrels were made by wrapping a long, slim sheet of wrought iron around a forming rod and then welding the iron strip together through either hammering or rolling, so if a barrel failed from internal pressure, it normally would split along the weld. That the barrel fragmented instead of split indicates that the iron had been case-hardened during the rolling or welding process and become brittle, experiencing brittle failure.

Note: Additional excerpts from the book may be found in the Random Static section.

 

[Enoki]

Out of curiosity, how many of you who are discussing the use of these extremely powerful revolvers have ever fired one? Aside from a pretty nasty recoil, there is a fair amount of sheer noise, and also muzzle blast. My experience is that most people have problems shooting the standard .45 Auto, much less a monster revolver.

Also, if you miss your intended target, that round does not suddenly evaporate and become innocuous. It is still heading downrange, to eventually be stopped by something.

For most people, one thing that hasn't been discussed here is size and wieght. A .45 auto isn't generally too much in terms of recoil for most average sized men. For a woman a .45 represents a challenge more simply for its weight and size than recoil. That is, the gun is simply to big and heavy to easily grip.
I know the wife prefers a .380 to my 9mm or 40 caliber for example while I could care less which of the three I'm using. The same thing for rifles and other weapons. As an example, I really don't like the AR 15 / M 16. I find it too small for comfortable firing and the recoil stock or collapsable stock are the worst of the bunch in that respect. I don't like the Thompson SMG as I find it too heavy even as that helps with accuracy.

So, the size and weight would play a role in Traveller too I would think, particularly given various alien species. How would some human find a Hiver weapon for use as an example?