Anagathics and Population

[flykiller]

For the US, does the civil war happen if the Founding Fathers are still alive to talk down Calhoun and his political heirs?

or talk him up ....

but the CONTENT may be VERY different.

nope. people listen to what they want to hear, not to what they're told to like. bach beethoven et al wrote "big" music because they were the only ones available. and they wrote for "high" audiences because they were the only ones who could pay for the huge orchestras and choirs. the street stayed on the street. with "modern" music any gang of teenage boys can pick up a few second-hand guitars and make millions, if they're popular on the street. they don't have to be good, they don't have to know anything, they just have to be popular on the street.

it's not like classical is deprecated, you can hear it on one radio station just about everywhere you go. but stuff like nirvana is what pulls in the big bucks. "hello hello hello hallo hello hello hello hallo ...."

 

[flykiller]

The concept was to apply quantum physics modeling, which is highly accurate for large aggregates of molecules or electrons, to societal modelling, with people standing in as the individually unpredictable but predictable in large numbers molecules.

heh.

sure, you can't predict the path of any individual water molecule as it flows downstream in the creek, but you predict where the majority of them will end up.

unless some intelligence decides to dig a side channel ....

physics don't think.

 

[Condottiere]

Archetypical elves know gods exist, and that tends to reflect on their political systems and legitimacy.

And if for all intents and purposes you and everyone around you will be living a very, very long time, economics will tend towards favours and credit carried forward, goods are likely bespoke, heavily customized and high quality, which spells the death knell for consumption based economy.

 

[McPerth]

I never did like the Foundation series because of the assumption that it was possible to predict human behavior hundreds of years in advance.

Not wanting to judge Fundation series, it was just the first example I thought about of someone planning for long after his own death and that I guess would be known by most users in this board, and put it as example.

What I meant was that any way to extend life (from anagathics, to low berth or cloning/mind taping) will produce the situations told here.

I was just pointing out that in an industrial society, while people live longer, the reduction in birth rate results in stagnant or negative growth rates. That is a demonstrable fact.

Well, it didn't happen in Victorian times, already with industrialization and life expectatives growing longer each year. There are many more factors afecting it, but most border politics.

IMHO, the anagathics efect on it would mostly depend on how much of the population they reached,

 

[Spinward Scout]

Elf procreation rates are political?

No, as long as the discussion stays in the Realm Fantastic. The more real-world/modern world the discussion gets about Population Control, the closer it is to Political. The thread is an interesting discussion. We just want to make sure it stays that way.

 

[kilemall]

Archetypical elves know gods exist, and that tends to reflect on their political systems and legitimacy.

And if for all intents and purposes you and everyone around you will be living a very, very long time, economics will tend towards favours and credit carried forward, goods are likely bespoke, heavily customized and high quality, which spells the death knell for consumption based economy.

Hence 1 RU worlds like in Imperium.

 

[kilemall]

No, as long as the discussion stays in the Realm Fantastic. The more real-world/modern world the discussion gets about Population Control, the closer it is to Political. The thread is an interesting discussion. We just want to make sure it stays that way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KRqeDEQcYk

 

[Spinward Scout]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KRqeDEQcYk

:rofl:

That's what I get for responding when I'm half asleep.

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

Well, it didn't happen in Victorian times, already with industrialization and life expectatives growing longer each year.

Well, children could still be a net economic positive in the early Industrial Era, what with the lack of child labor laws and the like. Also, Victorian medicine was still pretty deplorable, so people having children in that era had to factor in a certain amount of infant and childbirth mortality, too.

We should also give a shout out to the fact that we moderns have access to reliable birth control (and, no ... gross, reusable condoms made from sheep intestines don't count).

Generally, though, the higher the skill level it takes to function effectively in a society -- as in going from agrarian to industrial -- the longer it is going to take to get an individual up to speed, meaning the longer their pre-adult 'childhood' is apt to last. And the longer they are in pre-adulthood, the more expensive it is to raise them up to productive adulthood. In those conditions, parents are a lot less likely to raise more than a few children; hence, modern Western fertility rates hover at right around to just below the replacement rate (about 2.1 children per woman).

Since Information Age societies require even higher skill levels for individual productivity, the cost (in both time and money) it takes to create a functioning adult is that much higher as well. If you are a potential parent faced with a 25+ year process in supporting someone from infant to adult, you are probably going to plan for only one or two.

 

[McPerth]

Generally, though, the higher the skill level it takes to function effectively in a society -- as in going from agrarian to industrial -- the longer it is going to take to get an individual up to speed, meaning the longer their pre-adult 'childhood' is apt to last. And the longer they are in pre-adulthood, the more expensive it is to raise them up to productive adulthood. In those conditions, parents are a lot less likely to raise more than a few children; hence, modern Western fertility rates hover at right around to just below the replacement rate (about 2.1 children per woman).

Since Information Age societies require even higher skill levels for individual productivity, the cost (in both time and money) it takes to create a functioning adult is that much higher as well. If you are a potential parent faced with a 25+ year process in supporting someone from infant to adult, you are probably going to plan for only one or two.

But increased lifespan (and in youth condition, as it is achieved through anagatics) might well reverse this reasoning.

If you can keep your training up to (let's say) 30-40 years old, then being in your prime (akin today's 20's) to work and have children until past your 60's. and keep working until your 90's to then enjoy your retirement, still in relatively good shape (akin of nowdays 60's-70's, probably even healthier), most of those conditionants, due in part to our limited lifespan, may be voided.

Add to this that anagatics are TL15, so any society that can widepread use them will be HiTech and mechanized, and jobs are likely not to be too physically taxing (as those are done by robots), and the society is fully changed, and most reasonings we have nowdays (about fertility, etc) may well be moot.

 

[flykiller]

Add to this that anagatics are TL15, so any society that can widepread use them will be HiTech and mechanized, and jobs are likely not to be too physically taxing (as those are done by robots)

what do people on high-tech high-pop worlds do all day?

 

[Condottiere]

Watch Aslan and Vargr trigifs.

 

[coliver988]

Watch Aslan and Vargr trigifs.

:rofl:

 

[mike wightman]

Something that hasn't popped up in discussion yet - if it has I have missed it - is that there should be many life extending technologies at lower TLs than the TL15 anagathic regime.
Cloning of organs, stem cell treatments, DNA resetting retro-viral treatments, bio-mechanical replacements, genetically modified animal organs, and many more.
Some of these are just around the corner here in the real world, so lets say that by TL9 there should be many options available to the rich who can afford such treatments.

Then there is the possibility - often used in sci-fi - of using artificial wombs, which may be genetically modified animals (you are birthed by a pig and a few years later you can have a nice bacon sandwich ) or bio-mechanical. These could be manufactured so that a lot of embryos could develop in a batch.

 

[flykiller]

many life extending technologies at lower TLs than the TL15 anagathic regime.

not sure organ-growing/replacement or dna alteration was on the radar in the late 1970's. but pill-popping was.

Some of these are just around the corner here in the real world, so lets say that by TL9 there should be many options available to the rich who can afford such treatments.

indeed, if the speed at which dna sequencing has become faster and cheaper is any indication, by techA they should be cheap.

and we've all seen the pictures of genetically-modified glow-in-the-dark mice. if that's possible then lots of other things will be too. 'course, that goes further than mere life extension, all kinds of enhancements would be available.

 

[McPerth]

Watch Aslan and Vargr trigifs.

Excuse this poor non english native speacker, but could you explain me what do you mean?

 

[flykiller]

three dimensional animated gifs

"tri" = 3

 

[McPerth]

Ok, now I understand it (or so I believe). TY.

 

[whartung]

To be clear, 3D dog and cat videos.

"Watch Aslan (cats) and Vargr (dogs) trigifs (tri gifs, 3D gifs, animated gifs, 3D videos)."

 

[lostscout5]

To be clear, 3D dog and cat videos.

"Watch Aslan (cats) and Vargr (dogs) trigifs (tri gifs, 3D gifs, animated gifs, 3D videos)."

Grumpy Aslan? Scary!
Ack ! Even worse ... Nyan Aslan, the twenty four hour version. Oh boy, I think I just made myself sick.