Are you supposed to add Effect from skill rolls to space combat damage rolls?

[Gwahlur]

I have been playing in a Mongoose Traveller (1st Ed, the one published in 2008) for some time now and just started wondering how space combat damage is actually calculated. In ordinary "man-to-man" combat, you add the Effect of the skill roll to the damage caused by weapon (Core Rulebook p. 65). Are you supposed to do the same in space combat? I fail to find any mention of this in the space combat rules.

 

[McPerth]

AFAIK it's not explicited in the rules. See those old discussion o nanother old thread, through.

McPerth: you're forgetting one aspect of MGT - margin of success adds to damage. A 1D laser with a good gunner can get a good shot and pen that armor.

I'm not forgetting that, I was just unaware of that fact.

I won't dare to challenge your knowledge of the rules (less so in something I find quite sound), but, can you please tell me where is this rule written? I reviewed the core book (ship combat, weapons and skill descriptions) and didn't find it.

Of course this fact will make weapons quite more powerful and, as you say, make this ship (and any other with armor 6+) vulnerable even to beam lasers (as an example), so giving more sense to having them installed on your ship.

That's because they made it less explicit after playtest... The ship damage (unlike personal) doesn't define rolled damage... personal combat does; the roll of the indicated dice plus the effect.

Do you know if this has been ammended on errata? IMHO it should, if this rule is mantained.

It's not in the errata docs I have, however, it was explicit in playtest that effect was added to all damages.

But as most of us (I guess) were not involved in playtest (nor have we access to it), I think it should be hard written in the rules or the errata. Anyway, now knowing about it (TY for that, BTW), I'll use this rule if I play MGT.

One big problem to be aware of: after the last public beta, they changed the task system, personal and ship combat mechanics. Some of the gaps are likely of that origin; Tasks went to what was obviously an in-house draft, same with Personal Combat; the different wording and turns of phrase in ship combat imply a different era from the other two; it certainly feels like a precursor to Playtest Draft 3's combat mechanics.

 

[Gwahlur]

Thank you for a very thorough answer, McPerth!

It appears that adding the Effect is the authoritative interpretation of the space combat rules. This increases the value of pulse and beam lasers, and also of ordinary missiles, while at the same time devaluing armor somewhat. This suits me fine, thematically I much prefer space combat to be a dangerous affair.

 

[McPerth]

You're welcome (and by the way, also to the board, as I see those are your first posts).

I fully agree with you on it. See that in HG capital ship combaat the crew quality (so the skill level) is a potnetially decisive factor, helping to overcome the armor or highly increasing damage against unarmored ships..

This makes IMHO consistent with HG combat rules to add the to hit task effect (directly related to skill) to damage in small ship combat (the CB system).

EDIT: See that exactly the same thing can be said about FC software END EDIT

But that's only my opinion, and AFAIK there's no official answer to your question.

 

[DickNervous]

For 1st Edition you use the table that translates a damage number into a specific number of single, double, or triple hits and adding the effect usually didn't change things, so I never did it. Besides, I found that space combat was deadly enough without adding that in

However, since it isn't specified in the rules you can do it however you want, just be consistent.

 

[McPerth]

For 1st Edition you use the table that translates a damage number into a specific number of single, double, or triple hits and adding the effect usually didn't change things, so I never did it. Besides, I found that space combat was deadly enough without adding that in

However, since it isn't specified in the rules you can do it however you want, just be consistent.

I fully disagree with you on the fact that adding the effect does not use to change it.

Imagine two gazelle (CB page 123) ships fighting each other. They have armor 8 and are armed wiht beam lasers, sandcasters and missiles. Unless they use nukes (something forbiden in 3I), they are imprevious to each other fire unless the effect is added.

Even a free trader has armor 4, so being unaffected by those weapons 66% of time, and receiving one single hit the other 33%. If you add the effect, they may even receive two single hits (if effect + roll is 9+)...

Even a tiny armor 2 limits the damage of those weapons to one single hit unless effect is added...

The damage table goes by increments of 4, so adding effect (that may be up to 6) will change the table quite often.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Sorry, isn't the Beam laser 2D damage?

 

[McPerth]

Sorry, isn't the Beam laser 2D damage?

This was changed in HG, as changes to standard rules. Beam laser does 1d6, while pulse laser does 2d6 damage, but has a -2 to hit (more powerful, less accurate).

 

[DickNervous]

I fully disagree with you on the fact that adding the effect does not use to change it.

Imagine two gazelle (CB page 123) ships fighting each other. They have armor 8 and are armed wiht beam lasers, sandcasters and missiles. Unless they use nukes (something forbiden in 3I), they are imprevious to each other fire unless the effect is added.

Even a free trader has armor 4, so being unaffected by those weapons 66% of time, and receiving one single hit the other 33%. If you add the effect, they may even receive two single hits (if effect + roll is 9+)...

Even a tiny armor 2 limits the damage of those weapons to one single hit unless effect is added...

The damage table goes by increments of 4, so adding effect (that may be up to 6) will change the table quite often.

So I just realized that for MgT1 I have been doing ship combat all wrong for quite some time. I never subtracted the armor from the amount rolled on the dice for damage before checking the table. How the heck neither I nor my players have realized that oversight all this time I am not sure. So yeah, then the effect would make a big difference.

I'm gonna go get my Dunce cap now and sit in the corner for a few days... :rofl::rofl:

 

[AnotherDilbert]

This was changed in HG, ...

Sorry, I had forgotten about that.


I think it's a rather weak argument that you have to add Effect otherwise the worst weapon in the game can't penetrate a medium armoured warship.

As far as I can remember the MgT1 system was quite deadly enough, if you used real weapons...

 

[McPerth]

I think it's a rather weak argument that you have to add Effect otherwise the worst weapon in the game can't penetrate a medium armoured warship.

Well. most standard ships use those worst weapons, incluiding what is thought to be the anti-piracy ships as the Gazelle, and the Serpent Pólice Cutter can only damage such a ship with the pulse laser, the missiles (in both cases) being useless unless they are armed with Nukes (and, as said, thsoe are ilegal in 3I).

And, anyway, making it more consistent with MgT HG system (where better gunners, and so higher rolls, mean more damage) isn't a reason for it?

In any case, Aramis was quite clear this was done in playtesting. We're not sure if it was deleted or forgotten in the final product, but I personally feel it would be a good thing, Of course YMMV.

As far as I can remember the MgT1 system was quite deadly enough, if you used real weapons...

THose "real weapons" are quite rare in the sandard designs (I guess bays are not expected to be found except in fully military designs), and even then against well armored ships they are not so deadly.

Of course, if you equip your ship with a meson bay, combat is quite deadly unless your foe has meson screens, but I don't expect many ACS to be so armed...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

With real weapons I meant the ubiquitous Particle. Turrets are easily replaced.

The original Gazelle used Particle barbettes, it's only later demilitarised versions that only use laser and missile turrets.