Armed Forces of the Gateway

[Antares Administration]

This is a repeat of my post from the Marine Traditions thread. Let's move the discussion here.
________________

Actually, last Thursday, I drafted a submission proposal to Hunter, including an outline for a series called "Armed Forces of the Gateway". Some proposed volumes were:
a. The Imperial Marines,
b. The Imperial Interstellar Scout Service,
c. The Imperial Navy, etc.
d. Various major regional forces.

You get the idea. Think of something like the Osprey reference series; a sort of generic Traveller reference to pull together the canon in a single volume, and flesh out the holes.

I thought I should start with a submission to the powers-that-be. After all, if we want this sanctioned for publication, we may as well have blessing from the outset.

Anyway, half way through prepping the submission, a virus crashed my Windows 2K, and I wasn't able to recover the outline. I've since rebuilt my harddrive, and I'm in the middle of doing the submission again.

In general, each volume would have the following content (actual detail and sequence to be confirmed, and suggest size of section included):

a. Introduction (1 page)
b. History of the Service/Force (4 pages)
c. BASIC Equipment (6 pages)
d. TO&Es for small units (up to squadron, or battalion) (4-6 pages)
e. Intro Doctrine/Tactical Manual? (4-6 pages)
e. Campaign/Mission/Ticket Suggestions (not like "Linkworlds Cluster", but rather some basic guidelines and plot suggestions for GMs)(2 pages)
e. Famous/infamous characters (possible NPCs)(4-6 pages)
f. General service NPCs (2-4 pages)

This is probably too much, and I'd like to keep it under 40 pages. After all there would be a whole series to write, and we don't even have the go-ahead yet!

While I'm putting this together in a new submission, I'd appreciate any feedback.

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[BluWolf]

The format seems a little ambitious but not rediculous.

Why keep it o imperial forces? wouldn't a lot of military units in the universe be more "planet" or "regional" in sponsorship?

 

[Antares Administration]

Absolutely!

I guess I listed the Imperial forces first because of the depth of material that already exists for them (in a dozen different places). That makes it an easy place to start (or not, if you don't like all the editing involved).

After the essential Imperial material, I would expect work on the other major powers in Gateway, and all of the Sector Powers. For example:

a. Armed Forces of the Khuur League,
b. Household Forces of the Grand Duchy of Stoner (in Glimmerdrift Reaches), etc

The idea is not to plot the deployment and variations of each unit of a given service. Rather, it's intended to be a background reference to aid game play.

Maybe 40 pages is too much. Thoughts on that?

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[BluWolf]

I thought I saw mention of a supplement called "Trillion dollar fleet" or something. Did this supplement give guidlines for creating military units? Are there, for lack of a better term, economical guidelines out there??

 

[Ranger]

I know Striker had guidlines for determining budgets for ground forces. I never got StrikerII (or any other MT/TNE/T4 material until very recently) so I don't know what newer sources are out there. I do know that MT had a system to determine the military capacity of a given system, but not how it worked. Any suggestions for the best source on this?

Rob

 

[Ranger]

After a couple of minutes of deep reflection, here are some thought that come to mind.

First, I like the idea a lot. Some of my favorite CT products were the original Alien Modules, and this could be a military version of those in some ways.

One thing I think you need to agree on early is how much content will be graphics and how much text. The Osprey type series is a good concept, but those books are very graphic intensive. So, as a practical issue, who provides the graphics to support the text?

I think starting with the established forces is a great idea for a couple of reasons. First, it will do something that I have been hoping would happen someday, and that is collect all that scattered material into one source. For example, the Navy book could contain a colsolodated listing of canon High Guard warship data that is scattered thoughout various supliments and JTAS/FASA articles.

A second benifit is that it will allow you to get a couple of products in the pipeline quicly while the other (less sourced) are being developed.

One concern about the less established topics. Since military formations are reflections of their societies, is there enought social background on the states of the region to build unique and credible military formations yet?

Just some thoughts,

Rob

 

[Antares Administration]

Originally posted by Ranger:
After a couple of minutes of deep reflection, here are some thought that come to mind.

First, I like the idea a lot. Some of my favorite CT products were the original Alien Modules, and this could be a military version of those in some ways.

I am modelling much of my thinking upon the Alien Modules, and the Army modules of Dream Pod 9's Heavy Gear roleplaying/tactical series.

One thing I think you need to agree on early is how much content will be graphics and how much text. The Osprey type series is a good concept, but those books are very graphic intensive. So, as a practical issue, who provides the graphics to support the text?

Good point. Perhaps I carried the analogy too far. That Osprey line has individual books for each service/formation/unit of a given nationality/force/alliance in a given conflict or historical period. What I'm talking about can have as much or as little in the way of graphics as we decide. It may look like Linkworlds and have cover graphics only, or we may include organizational diagrams/tables for clarity, or we may actually get representative artwork for the different sections. I personally think less is easier.

One concern about the less established topics. Since military formations are reflections of their societies, is there enought social background on the states of the region to build unique and credible military formations yet?

I'm only just reading into the draft Gateway Sector book that MJD is putting together, but the vast majority of sector powers are Human and will have evolved from Solomani or Vilani traditions. Therefore a case can be made for a "traditional" basis to those organizations and their equipment. Obviously, we'd need to make sure that the organizations feel right in the geospatial and cultural context of the game.

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[tjoneslo]

I like this idea, but... How much of the material in the Imperial books will duplicate (or contradict) what is already in GT:Ground Forces, GT:Star Mercs and GT:First In?

Ground forces is one of my favorite book because it has details on the Marines and Army, including TOE. Rules for generating size of world armies, and Imperial forces, Full listing of all equipment used including weapons, a Grav vehicle design system, plus many example vehicles. Much goodness to be found here.

Trillion Credit Squadron was a starship fleet game which required Book 5 (High Guard) for the ship designs. It lays out the costs for building a fleet and where the money comes from, but not any of the details of the Naval services.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

AS a sample of the 'small' military
why not do the Armed forces of 'liar's oath?' it's only one planet after all.

 

[Antares Administration]

Originally posted by tjoneslo:
I like this idea, but... How much of the material in the Imperial books will duplicate (or contradict) what is already in GT:Ground Forces, GT:Star Mercs and GT:First In?

OK...

I own all three, and they're great references (are they considered canon???). They're also alot larger than what I originally envisioned. If we're talking about a maximum of 40 pages, it will have to be the basics. I'm not including detail to the level of equipment checklists for a Marine in a ship's detachment versus one in a task force.

Content would be to the level of complexity of TA1. Tantalize the taste buds, deliver the basics, and leave room for GMs to do their thing.

Now, because the GT books already cover the Imperial services in such detail, not all of their owners will want to buy Armed Forces of the Gateway (AFOG). If, however, the decision was to make AFOG T20-specific rather than generic, then GMs and players could do alot with that.

Perhaps Sector Forces (read Minor Forces) is a better way to start, because so little canon exists.

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[Antares Administration]

It might make things clearer if I mock one up using a sample minor Sector power from Gateway. If I could post it to CotI as a playtest article, other players could look it over, chew it up,

flame it, and tell me what they think....

Any other thoughts?

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

I think that's a great place to start.
test the waters as it were.

 

[eclipse]

Originally posted by BluWolf:
I thought I saw mention of a supplement called "Trillion dollar fleet" or something. Did this supplement give guidlines for creating military units? Are there, for lack of a better term, economical guidelines out there??

Trillion Credit Squadron is a CT book that is for fleet level battles using Book 5 (High Guard) designs.

Here's the short version, you have a Trillion Credits. Design a fleet. Somebody else does the same. Duke it out.

 

[eclipse]

I like the outline.

I see the Imperial Marines and the Imperial Army as having very seperate goals.

The Imperial Marines are the mailed fist of the Emperor. They are a quick reaction and strike force. They capture ground, quickly.

The Imperial Army holds ground. They are more suited for longer battles.

The most common armor in the Marines is Battledress. The most common armor in the Army is grav APCs and grav tanks.

A "typical" Marine stationed on an Imperial Battleship has Battledress, a man-portable plasma weapon and a gauss PDW.

A "typical" Solider of the Imperial Army is issued a Combat Environment Suit (or Combat Armor), an integrated hardned flack jacket, battlefield electronics gear, a gauss rifle. His most dangerous weapon is is link to the Meason Sled.

Now of course, there will be Army units with Battledress, but those would be the exeception rather than the rule.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

It would be interesting to see what sorts of tactical doctrines we could come up with.

Western Doctorine for attacking an enemy, for example is a 3:1 numerical advantage. It's a testament to the value of Air power that Desert Storm had barely a 1:1 advantage in actual ground troops.

Soviet Doctrine, I was given to understand long ago, was 7:1 odds on the attack.

Are imperial forces confident of their might? maybe the marines rountinely take on 1:1 odds. then again maybe the emperor doesn't LIKE sending marines home in Cryopods and makes sure there's a crushing force availeble.

---

on an unrelated topic when we do the solomani (we doing the solomani right?) we can consider the effect of Home Guard (reserves) on prior history. (XP bonus and a couple of military skills treated as Hobby or world skills?)

Just some thoughts on the subject.

 

[tjoneslo]

Originally posted by Antares Administration:
I own all three, and they're great references (are they considered canon???).

I know I'll be jumping up and down and screaming about canon violations if you contradict what's in these books.

Perhaps Sector Forces (read Minor Forces) is a better way to start, because so little canon exists.

I like that idea a whole lot more. Canon on the Imperial forces makes them too large and monolithic to be a really good gaming source. Smaller planetary forces could be better as either allies or opposition to the players, and they have more variablitiy.

 

[eclipse]

Originally posted by tjoneslo:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Antares Administration:
I own all three, and they're great references (are they considered canon???).

I know I'll be jumping up and down and screaming about canon violations if you contradict what's in these books.

Perhaps Sector Forces (read Minor Forces) is a better way to start, because so little canon exists.

I like that idea a whole lot more. Canon on the Imperial forces makes them too large and monolithic to be a really good gaming source. Smaller planetary forces could be better as either allies or opposition to the players, and they have more variablitiy.</font>[/QUOTE]This would be interesting.
One view of the Imperial Army is that it's actually made of units of Planetary Armies that get "Imperialized".

So they have to use certain standards, rank, organization, equipment, but still would have distinctive characteristics.

Sorta like NATO. For example, NATO Armed Forces don't have to use the same rifle, but their rifles have to use a common round and accept a common magazine.

A detailed write up of a unit like the 4th Kentari Jaegers could easily be the focus of a single TA issue.

 

[T. Foster]

I agree that descriptions of small planetary-scale units would be more appealing the books intending to cover the entire Imperial army, navy or marines as a whole. For one thing, we already have books that cover those (the aforementioned GT books). For another, those forces are so large and omnipresent that providing a lot of specific detail about them feels (at least to me) like a significant canon-load upon individual referees, limiting their creative options. With smaller scale forces (a prime example IMO being the 4518th Lift Infantry Regiment from JTAS9 and/or Spinward Marches Campaign) the detail is there for those refs who want or need it (and to serve as a model for individual referees to design their own units), but if an individual referee doesn't want to use that info it's small-scale enough that it can still be safely ignored without causing a major canon-breach.

I know all the old chestnuts about it being my TU and that I'm free to use or ignore whatever canon I wish in it, and that's what I do (e.g. I don't use GT:Ground Forces IMTU), but the point I'm trying to make is that the more broad and pervasively detailed the canon grows the more often the individual ref is faced with the choice between ignoring the canon or compromising his own vision, and (perhaps ironically) the less widely useful the material becomes. Anyway, to get back on track: by keeping the focus small-scale and local, you are providing info for those who want it without constraining (even if just theoretically) the visions of those who don't, and that is (IMO) the best of both worlds. Put yet another way: Planetary Surveys yes, Behind the Claw no.

 

[Antares Administration]

Originally posted by T. Foster:
Anyway, to get back on track: by keeping the focus small-scale and local, you are providing info for those who want it without constraining (even if just theoretically) the visions of those who don't, and that is (IMO) the best of both worlds. Put yet another way: Planetary Surveys yes, Behind the Claw no.

This is exactly the way that I want to approach the topic. When we were talking about traditions in the "Marine Traditions" thread, my original concept was a six or eight pager, intended for those who don't need the authorative source, but want to get the essentials right. At that point, I was thinking elite units: mercenary, planetary or Imperial (very much like the Huscarles article in JTAS #9 - probably still the best regimental writeup ever for Traveller).

I guess my point of view is that when it comes to the Imperial Forces, we don't need more canon, but we do need "enough" adequate background info in one source, so that it's useful to someone who doesn't own all of the source material.

To start with, though, it would be less "controversial" to document something less known.

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[Antares Administration]

Originally posted by eclipse:

One view of the Imperial Army is that it's actually made of units of Planetary Armies that get "Imperialized".

So they have to use certain standards, rank, organization, equipment, but still would have distinctive characteristics.

Sorta like NATO.

That was my understanding as well, which is why I never listed "The Imperial Army" as a single volume. There are some Imperial UNITS, recruited centrally, but no homogenous formations. You have different homeworlds with different TLs and species. Accordingly, you have different doctrines, customs and traditions, appropriate for the size of forces deployed by the homeworld.

As per the NATO example, it's only above the divisional level in most of the countries that you get "joint". In Traveller, though, you could have a "brigade group" consisting of a homeworld TL7 regiment and offworld specialists, support units and perhaps rapid-deployment forces companies or battalions from elsewhere in the subsector.

I have had a look at MJD's Gateway Domain Sourcebook, and it does go into some general information on the various powers, Major and Minor, of the Gateway. Most of the information is naval, and never more than a few paragraphs.

The equivalent of "The for-five-one-eighth" for some of those powers is quite do-able, I think.

Paul Nemeth
AA