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Armor benefits degrade

jaz0nj4ckal

SOC-12
Folks:
Once again – it has been a good while since I posted, which is due to my game sessions not getting the proper game play. Seems like my group members are going through rocky time as keeping a schedule, so we have not been playing that much.

However, we did get some good action in this past weekend, which had me thinking about the following:

Armor benefits being reduced by damage

Has anyone toyed with the idea of reducing the benefits that armor provides after so many deflected shots? I like the idea of armor reducing the chances to hit; however, I want to force my players to keep an eye on their equipment more. The latter is due to the environment the group is playing, and I believe could make for additional roll-playing elements due to quality of equipment between PC/NPC or even PC/PC.

Thanks
 
Has anyone toyed with the idea of reducing the benefits that armor provides after so many deflected shots?

sure. especially for ship damage.

for a "realistic" application -

put simply one must 1) decide how wide and how deep any damage by any particular weapon will do to any particular material to be considered and 2) sub-dividing the armor in question into relevant segments and 3) determining which armor segment is impacted by said weapon and 4) keeping track of the damage to that segment. this can be as rigorously deterministic or as seat-of-the-pants intuitive as you like.

this also leads to other issues such as target aspect cross-section - for example a human target face-on will have more "available target area" than sideways. one must also account for cover, such as looking around a pillar or other such. if you do this then players will immediately game the system - "take cover" - which is what real soldiers do anyway but it will increase your game time.

for a "just wing it" application -

so many general hits degrades general armor modifiers for all general future hits. you decide what they are.

for an example of how this can play out, in one game a wounded terrorist with a failing laser weapon set it to general wide-beam and opaqued the marine opponent's face shield. the marine was blinded until he raised his face shield and was forced to fight with an exposed face.
 
sure. especially for ship damage.
for a "just wing it" application -

so many general hits degrades general armor modifiers for all general future hits. you decide what they are.

for an example of how this can play out, in one game a wounded terrorist with a failing laser weapon set it to general wide-beam and opaqued the marine opponent's face shield. the marine was blinded until he raised his face shield and was forced to fight with an exposed face.

I was thinking of using a "just wing it" method, since I like fast dice mechanics to focus on roll playing. However, I am unsure what a good number for a damage value would be.... I was toying with the idea of using the average based on weapons.

Thanks
 
I was thinking of using a "just wing it" method, since I like fast dice mechanics to focus on roll playing.

I'm hip. try this:

2d6 for hit location
2 feet, 3 lower leg, 4-5 upper leg, 6-8 torso, 9 head, 10-11 arm, 12 hand
1d6 odd/even for left/right
damage roll combined with intuition for final damage

of course pre-game you will want to rigorously consider damage mechanism and likely effects on your idea of armor to guide your in-game intuition - in other words do the heavy work beforehand then play the game freely. for example major armor pieces such as breastplate and thigh-guards will be quite heavy and fluted to deflect incoming projectiles or liquids (which is what a plasma jet will be) - but the armor on the hands likely will be considerably thinner. and don't forget you don't need a table to roll dice to make a decision - the dice can do more than decide they can also guide.

sample: 3d6 damage roll 15, hit on the torso - moderate damage. 3d6 damage roll 9, hit on the hand - hand is gone. 3d6 damage roll 4 hit on the head - comms out.

other thoughts. imtu each marine platoon is accompanied by a navy armor technician in an effort to repair/maintain armor in the field as damage occurs. he also assists the corpsman in treating casualties. also a weapons tech - men are armored but weapons are not.
 
How do you know if armor blocked the hit, or if the target was completely missed?

I was thinking of using a threshold value, which would be the difference between hitting and missing. I had a method similar to this for AD&D2e back in the day; however, this was in 1993, and all my AD&D items have been in storage since 2001-2002. Maybe I will rummage through storage this weekend.
 
If the shot would have hit the target but didn't because of the DMs from the armor......

Blackbat thanks for the idea - I didn't think of that, much appreciated. I was trying to remember my old AD&D2e method for doing this, which was a marginal value for missing. Think it went something like:

THAC0 roll missed by (1-2): armor protected but roll damage dice for amount of damage armor took, so it was just like getting hit.

THAC0 roll missed by (3-4): Armor protected, roll damage for value armor absorbed, but divided by 2, so armor only absorbs half damage.

THAC0 roll missed by (4<x): Complete miss


What I can’t remember is the number of hit point or value points I gave to armor. If I remember correctly, I based the HP of armor off the Hit Dice Level/Level of the armorer who made it, which gave a new element to my games. My PCs were looking for master armor craftsman to have their armor created, which also gave flavor to the base armor types.
 
Blackbat thanks for the idea - I didn't think of that, much appreciated. I was trying to remember my old AD&D2e method for doing this, which was a marginal value for missing. Think it went something like:

THAC0 roll missed by (1-2): armor protected but roll damage dice for amount of damage armor took, so it was just like getting hit.

THAC0 roll missed by (3-4): Armor protected, roll damage for value armor absorbed, but divided by 2, so armor only absorbs half damage.

THAC0 roll missed by (4<x): Complete miss


What I can’t remember is the number of hit point or value points I gave to armor. If I remember correctly, I based the HP of armor off the Hit Dice Level/Level of the armorer who made it, which gave a new element to my games. My PCs were looking for master armor craftsman to have their armor created, which also gave flavor to the base armor types.

Not too dissimilar from Palladium.
Palladium, all to hit rolls were 4+. Any roll of ≥4 && <AR did damage to the armor's SDC; any roll of ≥ AR did damage straight to hit points.
 
Not too dissimilar from Palladium.
Palladium, all to hit rolls were 4+. Any roll of ≥4 && <AR did damage to the armor's SDC; any roll of ≥ AR did damage straight to hit points.

Wow... I never played anything by Palladium; however, I am pleased to see that I was not too far off from major rules.
 
Am I correct that the discussion is focused on personal armor only? Depending on the armor type and attack mechanism vehicular armor and wet ship armor would possibly degrade as well. Temperature can also play a major roll in this as well.

At low temperatures, wrought iron and some types of steel become quite brittle, and can shatter under an impact. How the armor is fastened to the backing can be a factor as well.
 
Am I correct that the discussion is focused on personal armor only? Depending on the armor type and attack mechanism vehicular armor and wet ship armor would possibly degrade as well. Temperature can also play a major roll in this as well.

At low temperatures, wrought iron and some types of steel become quite brittle, and can shatter under an impact. How the armor is fastened to the backing can be a factor as well.

Hi Timerover51
I first started this discussion to focus on personal armor; however, please throw in any ideas and suggestions you have related to armor degrading, which can include ship/vehicle armor values as well. So, ‘no’ this discussion is not limited to personal armor.

My group and I have not done any vehicle combat yet; however, it is only a matter of time before someone is going to want a jalopy retro fitted with a Mr. Fusion conversion.



Hmmm… dreaming of a Chryslus Motors Highwayman with a Mr. Fusion conversion, we don’t need any stinking Fuel Cells…
 
Hi Timerover51
I first started this discussion to focus on personal armor; however, please throw in any ideas and suggestions you have related to armor degrading, which can include ship/vehicle armor values as well. So, ‘no’ this discussion is not limited to personal armor.

My group and I have not done any vehicle combat yet; however, it is only a matter of time before someone is going to want a jalopy retro fitted with a Mr. Fusion conversion.

Hmmm… dreaming of a Chryslus Motors Highwayman with a Mr. Fusion conversion, we don’t need any stinking Fuel Cells…

Maybe I had better make myself clear on what I base my thoughts.

1. I use actual historical ballistic penetration data into various medium: sand, wood, concrete, mild steel, plastic protection, etc.

2. When I mentioned "ship" armor, I am thinking "wet ship", as in naval surface ship, not space ship. That progressions starts with Wrought Iron and ends with US and British face-hardened and rolled homogenous armor in World War 2.

3. As for space ships, I use as a base that commercial ship hulls are about equal to 40 pound high-tensile strength steel plate. This is based on data from Supplement 6, Traders and Gunboats, and Double Adventure 5, Chamax Plague and Horde. Using that as a base, I can pretty well figure out likely hull weight for a given displacement. Warships are a different category, and I have not worked up anything for them as yet.

4. Damage for a space ship is going to work differently depending on whether it is on the ground (and density of the ambient atmosphere) or in space, where blast overpressure is not a factor in damage.

You might also want to look at the thread that I started in the Lone Star forum regarding Low-G Vacuum Ballistics.
 
Looks like my reply killed the discussion.

+laugh+ No, was just super busy with work and could not find the time to get back on here. However, I hope we keep it going, since everyone was offereing great ideas.

I am looking for a simple method, since my group and myself are more into Roleplaying.
 
+laugh+ No, was just super busy with work and could not find the time to get back on here. However, I hope we keep it going, since everyone was offereing great ideas.

I am looking for a simple method, since my group and myself are more into Roleplaying.

If you are more into Roleplaying, then it sounds more like personal armor. With respect to that, a lot would depend on what kind it is and what it is hit with.
 
If you are more into Roleplaying, then it sounds more like personal armor. With respect to that, a lot would depend on what kind it is and what it is hit with.

Good point -

Maybe armor does not get reduced unless it gets hit by something larger then 4d6; however, I am at a loss as to a hit point value that has to be reached before the armor protection is reduced to the next lower type/values.
 
Good point -

Maybe armor does not get reduced unless it gets hit by something larger then 4d6; however, I am at a loss as to a hit point value that has to be reached before the armor protection is reduced to the next lower type/values.

What types of armor are you using and I will see what I can come up with.
 
IRL body armor degrades depending on what it is made of, how it protects, and how it is damaged. It can be complicated and it also depends on what it is made of and how it is used.

Military grade armor tends to be more durable since the soldier is going to be out in the field and under extended periods of combat - his armor will have to stand up to more non-combat wear and tear, too. The cop's vest will not have to keep out heavy rifles and not much wear on the materials is expected. So what about "adventurer grade"? What is its level of durability - that needs to be considered.

Body armor isn't like vehicle armor and it really can't be treated the same way. Vehicle armor will not only use the materials, but it will have layers of spacing, composite layers for different kinds of damage protections, and it is on a, well - tank or the like. It is designed completely differently and to be far, far more durable than body armor because it has to be since it is also a supporting structure for the vehicle in most cases.

Battle Dress might be somewhat analogous, but only a little bit.

Where vehicle armor only works by not getting penetrated, body armor works by (hopefully) not getting penetrated, and by reducing injury to the wearer if it does get penetrated by slowing the round and/or redirecting it. You might get a round through it but the wound won't penetrate deep enough to hit a vital organ. This slowing down can cause problems, too, since a high velocity round might now have enough energy to pass through you and then ricochet around a body panel (soft or hard) and back into another part of you, but then that is a reason why wearers have to be trained to use the armor right. You don't just strap it on and wade into combat expecting it work as advertised if you don't learn to wear it as a defensive tool.

Soft armor works because the weave used in the materials contracts and becomes rigid on impact. When I punch a soft panel in my vest I can feel the hardening effect depending on how hard I hit it and also see a clear impression of my knuckles and fingers in the material until it "relaxes". The fact that it depends on the layers of crisscrossed weave as much as the materials (which contribute to the resistance and durability), and that they react to impact is why soft vests not specifically made for it are not very effective for stab or cutting protection.

When soft armor panels are damaged by cuts or bullet penetration the armor is much less effective and the panels need to be replaced. Time also degrades performance, but less so than in the past.

Hard plates of ceramic chip and shatter to protect the wearer, absorbing and deflecting the impact like a fiberglass motorcycle helmet does. And like the helmet, the more damage done in a short amount of time, the more likely the damage will eventually get through to the wearer. Pretty much any impact that so much as hairline cracks ceramics will seriously degrade performance.

Metal plates are more durable, but the heaviest. Anything that damages one is probably heavy enough to ruin the plate, creases and dents included. But it depends, too, on how serious the ding is and what you expect to encounter. Mileage can vary. The additional risk is that metal plates can cause ricochets and there have been cases where that even hurts or kills a wearer when the round enters between plates and then bounces from one plate to another with the wearer's body in between.

So with all that in mind you need to consider what the damage is that might reduce the armor effectiveness and if the wearer will survive the experience. If you are using the CT system then it is all-or-nothing when determining hits so its hard to tell if a hit lands or shot misses. IN MT/Striker?AHL it is simple to tell if the target is actually hit or not - penetration is done separately.

I would argue that nearly any armor that is penetrated will need servicing at a minimum for it to be of any use at all in the future. And as a referee I would say in the case of anything but Combat or Battle Dress you'll be looking at a higher cost for repairs than just buying a new suit of Cloth.

Ablat, given its nature and how it protects degrades per the rules but the rules don't say how much.

For either of the above any actual HIT that doesn't penetrate will still require servicing. Maybe the reduction should be TWO points lowered from DM for penetration hits and ONE point for non? Just keep it simple and migraine free by not adding up all the hits - just say that in any combat period if the armor is hit the DM is lowered by one point, and then drop two more if there were any penetrations. Regardless of number.

For Jack, Mesh...same thing, but maybe less in some ways. The stuff is pretty much worthless for guns and less materials finicky so maybe just leaving it as is works? Or maybe telling the player his leather jacket is now ribbons would be enough?

For Combat and BD the armor will be more durable and (as I imagine) more modular in construction. Like heavy armor is today it will probably have components designed for easy swap-out when they are damaged to the point of uselessness and in the military this would be the practice if the armor is breached or heavily damaged. Units will have armorers for this. You could even argue that the higher the TL the less this would even have to be done?

To reflect that it is armor designed for far more than just keeping your local cop alive in a handgun fight maybe only penetrating hits would need serious work, and anything less would be just routine maintenance covered by having the skill to wear it - not just Vacc Suit. And really, anything that damages this armor will likely be serious firepower so it should be easy to explain that to the player who just got hosed with a burst of RAM grenade fire or survived a hit from a PGMP. There probably wouldn't be much left of the armor's integrity - but it will have done its job.
 
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