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Armour Legality

what force would an interstellar SAAMI have to ensure compliance?

It wouldn't be force, it would be the idea that you would be left out. The 3I would only buy rounds that were SAAMI (or whatever) compliant. Manufacturers could go to them to get a new standard set, so their new fancy firearm would be marketable. People "in the know" wouldn't bother to buy rounds that hadn't passed SAAMI certification. Megacorps might use it to manipulate the markets. All-in-all, industries love to have a standards organization that they themselves help run (so they have more say than with a governmental rule) - it keeps out the riff-raff (i.e., small competitors), helps them influence the market, builds brand reputation, etc.

Think Underwriter Laboratories, or IEEE or ISO specifications, Railway Clearing House, the Global Industry Classification Standard, or the W3C (without whom you wouldn't be reading this as easily).

Oh, and government gets the benefit of helping regulate something (because you *know* they'll have their hand in it) without having to pass laws and deal with having to take responsibility - the industry standard group will handle all that!
 
Imperial Product Standards Organization And Registry (IPSOAR).
Imperial Safe Enginering Standards Organization (ISES)*
Engineers Safety And Utility Consortium (ESAUC)**
Organization for Technical Standards and Engineering Safety (OTSE)***

*Easily confused acronym with ISIS - Imperial Scout Intelligence Service
** Esau being a traditional biblical name... Eldest issue of Isaac and Rebecca.
*** Home of the ICEMen - Imperial Criteria Evaluation men...
 
My thoughts...

I went by the principle of lowest common denominator of user for the product. Caseless and binary would be driven by military and law enforcement needs in more sophisticated societies, and by the time those are as perfected as brass cartridges, gyrojet/accelerator weapons, snub guns, and gauss weapons will be overtaking the technology (I call the first 2 TLs gyrojet or rocket, and switch to accelerator for the more proven later TL versions).

Which is the way to do it. Our difference is that IMTU, the lowest common denominator is TL 8-9 - that colonist of yours would not, IMTU, be let go with less than TL 8 because the colonizing agency (corp, gov, whatever) would not want anything less as it wouldn't be economically viable. They want a return on their investment and TL5 won't do that.

Also, for me, a TL5 or less world is either one that regressed due to some sort of failure, or one that is trying to hide or keep people away.

I also really liked the 2300 AD FTE-10 - a honkin' huge gauss rifle, firing a big, relatively slow (in comparison to 4mm needles) round. The stock gauss rifle is based on the assault rifle concept. Civilian needs would mean semi-auto versions and varied calibers, not just high-cap, high-speed sliverguns. Gauss shotguns, big game hunting rifles/sniper rifles, and other LE applications, such as anti-civilian vehicle guns would proliferate within short order.

2300 AD is an excellent game. Just sayin', I agree.

On a different note, I think the Imperium would mostly not be very concerned about modern assault rifles - too old and settled a tech. Weapon control advocates in the Imperium would look on those as the sort of thing to get around to banning some time after the sexier, more modern and potentially dangerous lasers and gauss weapons. The average citizen might intellectually realize they're all deadly, but who really thinks about muskets and arquebusses as threats today? Similarly, I think the real world, modern fetish for assault rifles, battle rifles, smgs, and similar auto-capable weapons will pass, and by the 58th century, an AR-15 or AK-47 will be thought of much as we now think of a percussion revolver or Quigley's Sharps rifle.
Thoughts?

Yeah, that's why for me TL 8-9 is the lowest denominator - the AK 47 will be your low tech.
 
My thoughts...
Which is the way to do it. Our difference is that IMTU, the lowest common denominator is TL 8-9 - that colonist of yours would not, IMTU, be let go with less than TL 8 because the colonizing agency (corp, gov, whatever) would not want anything less as it wouldn't be economically viable. They want a return on their investment and TL5 won't do that.
I can see that as the default for most colonies, but
1. The Imperium has to recognize that not all colonies will be that well off to start, and some will regress.
2. Some colonies aren't willing, and may, in fact, be involuntary, and some agencies (dictatorial world gov't, say) may not care about the colony other than being able to claim to have supplied the colony in order to mute criticism from other worlds and NGOs.
3. Some colonies take an economic hit and willingly drop to a lower TL to make it easier to sustain.

Also, for me, a TL5 or less world is either one that regressed due to some sort of failure, or one that is trying to hide or keep people away.
Often, not necessarily.

2300 AD is an excellent game. Just sayin', I agree.
Amen!

Yeah, that's why for me TL 8-9 is the lowest denominator - the AK 47 will be your low tech.
Nope. We still have plenty of lower tech stuff that doesn't reach our current TL; colonies will want to keep some other, lower TL, but more robust gear - which is why neo-mules will be common (See Heinlein's Time Enough For Love, the tale of the adopted daughter). That AK and groundcar are nice, but your colony will need some black powder guns and neomules for the first century or so. Farflung farmers and frontiersmen scouting the unexplored regions will need the ability to make their own powder and want a ride that doesn't need parts. The Colonial Militia will have AKs, but the outdoorsmen will want lower-tech, higher self-reliant goods.
 
Nope. We still have plenty of lower tech stuff that doesn't reach our current TL; colonies will want to keep some other, lower TL, but more robust gear - which is why neo-mules will be common (See Heinlein's Time Enough For Love, the tale of the adopted daughter). That AK and groundcar are nice, but your colony will need some black powder guns and neomules for the first century or so. Farflung farmers and frontiersmen scouting the unexplored regions will need the ability to make their own powder and want a ride that doesn't need parts. The Colonial Militia will have AKs, but the outdoorsmen will want lower-tech, higher self-reliant goods.

Works for you. If I play in your game I'll complain a bit and then settle down. In my game I'm gonna adopt some 2300 AD-isms, the MGT version, where small fabricators are available, and who knows? some creative or anarchic people may spread plans for AK-47 rounds. Sort of like in Eclipse Phase...


Oh, that reminds me; in the new MGT version of 2300AD there is a mention of armor legality; there's civilian armor and military armor. I'll look the reference up eventually.
 
Works for you. If I play in your game I'll complain a bit and then settle down.
Why complain? Those would be NPCs that I have to account for bad things happening to. PCs are on a ship, going places. Look up my Wayward Sun, MTU topic.
In my game I'm gonna adopt some 2300 AD-isms, the MGT version, where small fabricators are available, and who knows? some creative or anarchic people may spread plans for AK-47 rounds. Sort of like in Eclipse Phase...
I need to check that out sometime...

Oh, that reminds me; in the new MGT version of 2300AD there is a mention of armor legality; there's civilian armor and military armor. I'll look the reference up eventually.
That'd be good for the topic we've kinda diverged from.
 
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?p=417464#post417464

Another thread was talking about ID disks, and brought up chipped weapons, which got me to thinking: Some worlds, with the tech for it might require biometric recognition on arms and on any armor incorporating electronics and/or exoskeletons, and on exoskeletons themselves. Additionally, some of those worlds might even reduce the law level for biometric-ennabled weapons and/or armor. Thoughts?
 
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?p=417464#post417464

Another thread was talking about ID disks, and brought up chipped weapons, which got me to thinking: Some worlds, with the tech for it might require biometric recognition on arms and on any armor incorporating electronics and/or exoskeletons, and on exoskeletons themselves. Additionally, some of those worlds might even reduce the law level for biometric-ennabled weapons and/or armor. Thoughts?

It would work well as safety for guns, and as ID/license for armor.
 
Imperial Product Standards Organization And Registry (IPSOAR).
Imperial Safe Enginering Standards Organization (ISES)*
Engineers Safety And Utility Consortium (ESAUC)**
Organization for Technical Standards and Engineering Safety (OTSE)***

*Easily confused acronym with ISIS - Imperial Scout Intelligence Service
** Esau being a traditional biblical name... Eldest issue of Isaac and Rebecca.
*** Home of the ICEMen - Imperial Criteria Evaluation men...

I've always referred to this as "Imperial Specifications Bureau", usually shorthanded as "Imp-Spec."

"Hey, Bil! Don't forget to buy some reloads for the gauss pistols! And get IMPSPEC ammo this time, not that off-brand discount crap you picked pick up last time!"
 
To be honest, it probably won't say anything that'll make me want to change what I came up with for the subject, but it'd still be interesting to see what they have.

Also, Jame, have you found that reference to armor legality from MgT yet?
 
What Law Level governs the players possession of armed and/or armored combat vehicles, such as an armed ATV, and armed wheeled APC, or a Grav Tank?
 
What Law Level governs the players possession of armed and/or armored combat vehicles, such as an armed ATV, and armed wheeled APC, or a Grav Tank?

Part of it will go back to the "level at which the PCs get hassled" definition of LL. At a very high LL, any vehicle that stands out from the common crowd will get the locals hassling you. Mid-LLs they'll freak at anything that appears to have a weapon mounted on it - even if it's "de-mil'ed". Down at LL3 they'll be upset if it's a real military-grade weapon.

Concealed turrets and what-not would seem to be a good investment. :oo:
 
What Law Level governs the players possession of armed and/or armored combat vehicles, such as an armed ATV, and armed wheeled APC, or a Grav Tank?
The GMs law level!

Not everything has a black and white answer detailed in the rules. Imagination and variety make games interesting. Consistency is also needed because you don't want to return somewhere and have everything suddenly different for no reason other than you forgot to document something.

One system may have agreements with neighboring systems and the Imerium with databases updated as fast as the Xboats. This allows anyone licensed to operate a vehicle to do so in their system too and vehicles inspected and registered elsewhere are allowed as well.

Another system might stop you.
"License and registration please."
"What's this? Your Imperial papers are no good past the star port gates sonny. Please step out of the vehicle." on his comm with hand hovering near weapon "Code 8. I have a 10-29H"

Differences might be based on TL capability to gather "foreign" data and verify it.
Population might be a factor with a low populations having a more self sufficient mindset and recognizing peoples need for a vehicle.
A rich system might have plenty of vehicles available locally so vehicles that don't meet local standards are not allowed.
The corporate run system may only allow vehicles that they own.
 
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Somewhere in a GURPS book I've seen guidelines for assigning legality class to items other than weapons. IIRC it was based on how easily the item could be used to facilitate crimes. I think is must have been in the 3rd edition core rulebook or one of the compendiums. I don't have ready access to my own copies to check ATM, and 4th edition seems to have omitted that particular tidbit.

If you can find it, GT has a conversion chart for GURPS control ratings and Traveller law levels.


Hans
 
For any military equipment, AFVs, Battledress, whatever, I'd expect that the only people who could legally own it would be governments or registered Merc units. And if a Merc Unit lands a couple of AFVs on a planet, you can dang well make sure that the planetary government is going to want a good reason for it.
 
It may be a subtle point, but even something illegal for a private citizen in the real world (like ownership of a tank with a working 40 mm canon) could potentially be allowed with the right paperwork and a legitimate use for it (like a WW2 tank displayed at fairs, gunshows and airshows. This same concept should apply to Traveler worlds as well ... an individual in battledress with a PGMP 12 out for a good time on a Saturday night will probably have some explaining to do, but a Merc Unit returning from deployment and being transported from the downport through town to their headquarters several hours away might have a legitimate reason to be in battledress and the correct paperwork to pass through town ... and to train with military weapons within the boundaries of their private camp.

Many 'illegal' things are really more 'restricted' or 'controlled' than absolutely forbidden. Therein lies the seeds of adventure for a ship's Steward.
 
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