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Army, Marine and Mercenary vehicle crews.

I noticed that noe of the Combat troops have Weapon Profeceincy Heavy weapons and Only the Army has Field Artillery as a choice of a Class Feat. I take it that the average Marine, Army Trooper or Merc wouldn't have these feats and therefore couldn't man the guns in a vehicle. I can see it for Light infantry forces, like I have always assumed the Marines were and the same for Mercenaries, (For vehicle crews they would use ex-Army personnel) BUt the Army should have both of these feats as Class feats.

Or am I missing something?
 
Originally posted by Bhoins:

Or am I missing something?
They're available as Bonus Feats. I'm guessing not every person in the army (either currently or in the far future) is trained in how to fire a SAW, mortor, or artillery piece for example nor expected to under normal circumstances.

Casey
 
Well virtually everyone in the Army is trained on Machineguns. (Basic Infantry school did include the M60, the M249 the AT-4, and the M203. Machineguns, Anti-Tank Rocket Launcher and Grenade Launcher) Basic training did include the M203, M60, M2, LAW. (Granted I went to Basic Training long before I went to Infantry School.) I was a REMF, (Rear Echelon ..... ) while on active duty. The only weapons I didn't eventually learn to fire was the missiles and Artillery. (Though I did have a basic understanding on how they worked.) Virtually all members of a Mechanized Infantry Unit are taught how to fire the weapons on the Bradley, which includes the Auto-Cannon and a TOW missile. They are all also taught how to fire the Dragon Missile. (we didn't have those toys in the National Guard unit I was in.) Just because it is in the Class List of Feats doesn't mean everyone will learn how to do it. Not having it in the Class Feats means, to me anyway, that it isn't generally taught during the time in service. I am not saying it should be in the starting feats, just the class feats.


Originally posted by Casey:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:

Or am I missing something?
They're available as Bonus Feats. I'm guessing not every person in the army (either currently or in the far future) is trained in how to fire a SAW, mortor, or artillery piece for example nor expected to under normal circumstances.

Casey
</font>[/QUOTE]
 
Originally posted by Bhoins:
Just because it is in the Class List of Feats doesn't mean everyone will learn how to do it. Not having it in the Class Feats means, to me anyway, that it isn't generally taught during the time in service. I am not saying it should be in the starting feats, just the class feats.
I think you're confusing terms here. Class feats (or to be more precise, specialized class feats) are specific feats only availilbe to that class (or to several classes but not all). Examples would be Tactics for the Army Class, Smuggling for Rogue, etc. .

The feats you mentioned *are* Bonus Feats for the Army class so anyone who takes a level in the Army class can take either one as a Bonus feat or both if they take enough levels in the Army class. Which is what I think you mean when you use the term class feats.

Since people outside of the army can also train to learn how to use Heavy Weapons and/or Artillery the feats are not exclusive to the Army and thus are not specialized class feats. However, by being in the list of Bonus Feats for the Army they are within the range of training for Army personel of a high enough TL.

See p. 35 of THB for clarification on Bonus Feats under class features.

HTH,
Casey
 
I understand that the feats you get through normal level progression as opposed to class level progression can be anything. the problem I see is that the class progression bonus feats for the ground pounder classes don't include Heavy weapons or, in the case of Marines or Mercs, Artillery. Which to me implies that they are very specialized feats that aren't normally in the Ground pounder's set of skills. I don't believe they should be available to these classes only, but should be available as a bonus feat to that class. Or am I misreading how feats are chosen as you progress in levels?

Originally posted by Casey:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Just because it is in the Class List of Feats doesn't mean everyone will learn how to do it. Not having it in the Class Feats means, to me anyway, that it isn't generally taught during the time in service. I am not saying it should be in the starting feats, just the class feats.
I think you're confusing terms here. Class feats (or to be more precise, specialized class feats) are specific feats only availilbe to that class (or to several classes but not all). Examples would be Tactics for the Army Class, Smuggling for Rogue, etc. .

The feats you mentioned *are* Bonus Feats for the Army class so anyone who takes a level in the Army class can take either one as a Bonus feat or both if they take enough levels in the Army class. Which is what I think you mean when you use the term class feats.

Since people outside of the army can also train to learn how to use Heavy Weapons and/or Artillery the feats are not exclusive to the Army and thus are not specialized class feats. However, by being in the list of Bonus Feats for the Army they are within the range of training for Army personel of a high enough TL.

See p. 35 of THB for clarification on Bonus Feats under class features.

HTH,
Casey
</font>[/QUOTE]
 
I think you're misreading how feats are gained. I read it thusly, and it seems to make sense:

* the feats you get off the character-level table can be anything that isn't restricted to specific classes. It's how Military characters get 'PMOS'.

* the bonus feats you get from your class levels can only be taken from among those feats listed in the class description

* the feats listed in the class description are divided into two types: a) those feats which anyone can select as one of their basic character-level-granted feats and b) those feats which only classes specifically listed as having that feat as a specialist feat can take at all. Ever.

I don't have my T20 rules with me, or I'd knock up an example of what I mean.

HTH
R
 
Evening Bhoins and the rest of the board members,

First, I am not very familiar with the Character Design Sequence, so my comments may be out in left field, okay out in a field somewhere ;) .

The Marines are trained on various weapons like mortars, tank main guns, crew support weapons, and artillery. Artillery and tanks are specialty areas just like in the Army. Not all Marines or for that matter Army troops are trained in handling tank main guns, or artillery. Weapons like mortars and machine guns most troops, Marines and Army, have basic familiarization with the weapons. Yes, there is a group that has more in depth training with the use of mortars, machine guns, and other similiar crew supported weapons. Mercs, as has been mentioned, started out in a Ground Forces unit and may have picked up this type of training. In my view any infantry or wet navy swabbie could have the training on the weapon systems mentioned here.

Tom Rux


Originally posted by Bhoins:
I noticed that noe of the Combat troops have Weapon Profeceincy Heavy weapons and Only the Army has Field Artillery as a choice of a Class Feat. I take it that the average Marine, Army Trooper or Merc wouldn't have these feats and therefore couldn't man the guns in a vehicle. I can see it for Light infantry forces, like I have always assumed the Marines were and the same for Mercenaries, (For vehicle crews they would use ex-Army personnel) BUt the Army should have both of these feats as Class feats.

Or am I missing something?
 
I would say that it's likely due to the fact that shipboard marines (their primary fuction isn't ground combat after all but a specialized form of urban warfare) wouldn't need to know how to use a mortar or a shoulder fired rocket. ^_^
 
Shipboard Marines, while being specialized in boarding actions would still need basic ground warfare training. There would always be situations where they might need to be deployed from ship to secure an airfield or embassy or extract personnel from a dangerous area. They would have to have some of this training. I can see where the marines might not have artillery training as they likely wouldn't be transporting artillery pieces aboard ship unless they knew they were going to need it, but missiles and mortars are man-portable and would definitely be available for them.

In T20/D20 there are 2 types of feats: Class and General. Class feats are awarded solely to specific classes (feats are not always exclusive to one class) at given levels or may be selected from a class list. General feats may be taken by anyone. Some "Class" feats are actually general feats that are specifically given to a class to enhance that class.

The simple solution to this is use common sense. Army gets it, Marines get it, Mercs don't get it and instead have to rely on former military personnel who have it already. Make it available, not mandatory. There is still enough of a difference between the classes to keep them seperate.
 
Originally posted by lightsenshi:
I would say that it's likely due to the fact that shipboard marines (their primary fuction isn't ground combat after all but a specialized form of urban warfare) wouldn't need to know how to use a mortar or a shoulder fired rocket. ^_^
As I see the Marines, they go here needed and do whatever needs done. Then again marines do get assigned many different duties during their service.
 
I quite understand this. Which is why I am suggesting that heavy weapons and Artillery be listed as feats available as bonus feats from the class level as well as character level.

the impression I get is that the typical, Marine, for example would be infantry, but most would have the Armor Profeciency (Battledress) Feat. It is listed as a class bonus feat. But very few would actually take feats on the pick any feat choices like Heavy Weapons or Artillery. If it was listed as a class bonus feat then more Marines would learn it. It wouldn't make it a required feat but more common.

Originally posted by womble:
I think you're misreading how feats are gained. I read it thusly, and it seems to make sense:

* the feats you get off the character-level table can be anything that isn't restricted to specific classes. It's how Military characters get 'PMOS'.

* the bonus feats you get from your class levels can only be taken from among those feats listed in the class description

* the feats listed in the class description are divided into two types: a) those feats which anyone can select as one of their basic character-level-granted feats and b) those feats which only classes specifically listed as having that feat as a specialist feat can take at all. Ever.

I don't have my T20 rules with me, or I'd knock up an example of what I mean.

HTH
R
 
You can say that marines tend to be more light infantry which is why the feats aren't there. (Then Battledress and FGMP would be the Marine equivalent of Tanks.) But it doens't explain why the Army wouldn't have heavy weapons then. And even light infantry has Armor and Artillery. (though in the case of marines perhaps they are relying on Fighters and Indirect fire support from ship board weapons) That makes sense to me but the Army wouldn't rely on those things and has tanks (Trepid, and Zharkov) and APCs. (Astra)
 
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