Aslan Bases

[daryen]

The Sword Worlders are Solomani descendents, not Aslan.
The settlers for the Sword Worlds would have come through Corridor sector (known territory to the Vilani), not across the 6 parsec range required Verge Connector into the Riftspan Reaches before the J-5 Trade Route was even discovered by the Aslan.

No, my point was that the Aslan did let humans go through the J-5 passage: The Solomani group that became the Sword Worlders.

While the Solomani that ended up on Darrian did go through Corridor through Vland, the Solomani that became the Sword Worlders went through the Aslan J-5 route. Then again, this was from their GT write-up, so it may or may not be considered official. Their original write-up in JTAS pointedly skipped over how they got to Gram. They just "appeared" around -400 and then their history started.

Besides, most Aslan are not that forward-thinking. While some Aslan clans (and Aslan individuals) are anti-human, most do not care. And the vast majority are more worried about their current situation and their current conflicts with other clans and adjacent powers to really worry about some group of humans passing through. As long as the group of humans can get sponsorship or patronage of a relevant clan, even individuals or clans hostile to humans will let them through. Once the group gets across, it's someone else's problem; they got paid (whether in money, tribute, or service). For most Aslan, commerce is commerce, and a wandering band of humans will likely be tolerated as long as they keep moving and don't stop in those particular Aslans' area of concern.

 

[mike wightman]

GT Sword Worlds has been overwritten by MgT. So you can pick between ATUs or wait 'til we get an OTU explanation of how the Sword Worlders got there.

 

[Condottiere]

Maybe a spaceship on a LARP cruise got lost.

While immigration by minorities will always be an option, the Spinward Marches are pretty far off to maintain a cohesive social structure, at what, jump factor two?

 

[daryen]

GT Sword Worlds has been overwritten by MgT.

You know, if MgT (and T5) is going to continuously pave over the OTU with endless retcons, is there really even an OTU anymore?

 

[mike wightman]

Ahh the old question, what is the OTU? And Rob will tell you the answer, it is whatever Marc decides it is. Marc is bound by canon by his own admission, but when canon itself is contradictory between editions and eras then what are we to do?

 

[Condottiere]

He could have nine volumes worth of notes.

 

[Spinward Flow]

No, my point was that the Aslan did let humans go through the J-5 passage: The Solomani group that became the Sword Worlders.

HOW?
This is the Verge Connector from Verge sector to the Riftspan Reaches sector.

Notice the SIX PARSEC GAP between either ... Stairearlehfa and Oyoiy ... or ... Hasawe'i and Minuskan in order to even reach the J-5 Trade Route through the Riftspan Reaches sector.

How do you propose that a "convoy" of colony ships (plural) managed to have sufficient fuel fraction to cross that SIX PARSEC GAP while also having sufficient capacity for colonists, supplies and cargo to colonize with once they (eventually) reached the Spinward Marches?

My objection isn't a matter of "permission slips" ... it's a matter of logistics.
SIX PARSECS is a really long haul for a convoy of starships that can at best be expected to make Jump-2 (and may very well have been Jump-1 with multi-jump fuel capacity, but still!).

Imperial Year 0 had TL=12 available, but the Sword Worlds were colonized centuries prior to that time frame ... so at best you're looking at TL=11 as being the cutting edge for the colony ships used to colonize the Sword Worlds, with TL=9-10 much more likely in terms of "what the colonists could afford to acquire for the journey" ... meaning that Jump-1 is most likely with Jump-2 being possible (using LBB5.80 tech levels for jump capacity).

So ... you can either use the Verge Connector from Verge sector to the Riftspan Reaches sector where logistically speaking you're going to need a 6 parsec range to NOT DIE IN DEEP SPACE in the middle of the Great Rift ... or ... you can travel to the Spinward Marches via the Corridor sector that would be well known to the Vilani and not require traveling through Aslan controlled space during the Aslan Border Wars that lasted from -1118 to 380. The first settlement of Gram in what later became the Sword Worlds didn't happen until -399 and wasn't really complete until -200 ... so basically smack dab in the middle of the Aslan Border Wars, while they were still "hot" (so to speak).

Now ... you tell me.
Which is the safer/more accessible/more reliable route to get from Terra to the Spinward Marches?

1. Go spinward through Aslan controlled space during the Aslan Border Wars, turn coreward to cross the Great Rift, continue coreward through Aslan controlled space during the Aslan Border Wars, continue coreward until reaching Gram in the Spinward Marches.
2. Go coreward through Humaniti controlled space, turn spinward to the Verge Connector, somehow manage to jump across a SIX PARSEC GAP in the Great Rift with your loaded colony ships, turn coreward through the Riftspan reaches, continue coreward through Aslan controlled space during the Aslan Border Wars, continue coreward until reaching Gram in the Spinward Marches.
3. Go coreward through Humaniti controlled space, turn spinward to the Corridor sector, continue spinward until reaching Gram in the Spinward Marches.

Remember, it took almost 200 years (-399 to -200) to completely settle Gram in the Spinward Marches. That suggests multiple waves of colony immigration (most humans don't live for over 200 years at TL=9-11) by the Solomani settlers, meaning multiple round trips from Terra (or nearby in the sector) to Gram. Oh and in case I hadn't mentioned it already, the Aslan Border Wars were in full swing at the time ... so good luck getting an Aslan clan as a patron who will STAY a patron for your colony venture for the next 2 centuries(!) in order to secure safe passage across Aslan space. What are the odds that an enemy of the clan that is offering you safe passage will attack your colony ships? What are the odds that Outcasts and/or Pirates will attack your colony ships while they transit Aslan controlled space?

In other words ... do you choose the path that goes through "enemy" territory with landmines everywhere for you to step on ... or do you choose the "safe" path through Humaniti dominated territory instead which doesn't require 5-6 parsecs of unrefueled range in order to reach your destination?

You get three guesses as to which is the correct answer (and the first two guesses don't count).



Convoys of colonists are not well known for having the best security/defense escorts that money can provide. Try factoring that into your mental calculus about the merits of different routes to the same destination.

 

[daryen]

HOW?
This is the Verge Connector from Verge sector to the Riftspan Reaches sector.

I have no idea what that is even a map to. Really, this isn't that hard.

Start in the Solomani Rim, go to Magyar, go to Daibei, go to Reaver's Deep, go to Ealiyasiyw, go to Hlakhoi, and finally Riftspan Reaches which gives you entry to the rimward part of the J-5 corridor. This is all taken directly from TravellerMap. Until you get to the actual J-5 transit, nothing requires more than a J-2. It really isn't hard.

Now, if you want to talk about how a non-J-5 ship gets across the J-5 passage, sure. That's a fair question. But the Aslan have been doing it for a millennium, so I figure they know how to make it work.

But getting to the J-5 passage is easy enough, if not a short trip. Seriously, what are you even talking about? Are you thinking of a different J-5 corridor?

As for why take the Aslan route? Well, if you were on the losing side of a big old human based war, maybe the greatest threat is other humans, and the theoretical threat of the Aslan just isn't as high. Maybe you're trying to outrun your reputation and the sooner you leave human space, the sooner you can get away from the other humans who are hunting for you. Seriously, there are lots of reason why the Aslan route may actually be the safest route. Note that no route is "safe". You just have to decide which is more or less dangerous, and sometimes the calculations will say the Aslan route is the least dangerous.

 

[Spinward Flow]

The first settlement of Gram in what later became the Sword Worlds didn't happen until -399 and wasn't really complete until -200 ... so basically smack dab in the middle of the Aslan Border Wars, while they were still "hot" (so to speak).

Oh, hey ... look what I just found ...

Equus / Lanth / Spinward Marches

• -420: The first Sword World colonists leave Terra.
• -389: Sword World colonists contact "colonists" of Equus. Some remain. Tursiops galacti (Dolphins) introduced to Equus eco-system. They establish a colony on Equus which eventually reaches 200,000 in population.
• -102: Equus sends a contingent of support to Gram during the Sword Worlds Rebellion.

So if this wiki entry is to be believed, Gram was settled by colonists from Terra who left Terra in -420 and arrived a Gram in -399 for the first wave of colonization.

 

[Spinward Flow]

HOW?
This is the Verge Connector from Verge sector to the Riftspan Reaches sector.

I have no idea what that is even a map to.

VERGE sector.
RIFTSPAN REACHES sector.

{expectant look}

You know ... THIS PLACE.

Really, this isn't that hard.

Well, it wasn't until ... {expectant look}

Start in the Solomani Rim, go to Magyar, go to Daibei, go to Reaver's Deep, go to Ealiyasiyw, then finally Hlakhoi, which gives you entry to the rimward part of the J-5 corridor. This is all taken directly from TravellerMap. Until you get to the actual J-5 transit, nothing requires more than a J-2. It really isn't hard.

According to the wiki page for Reaver's Deep sector, the Principality of Caledon (established by Solomani settlers) wasn't even founded until -371 ... and yet the Sword Worlders who left to settle Gram departed Terra in -420 and arrived at Gram in -399 ... before the colony at Caledon in Reaver's Deep was established.

Start in the Solomani Rim, go to Magyar, go to Daibei, go to Reaver's Deep, go to Ealiyasiyw, then finally Hlakhoi, which gives you entry to the rimward part of the J-5 corridor.

So you're saying ... they did THIS (image link) as a colonial convoy from Terra ...

Not THIS (image link) ...

And definitely under no circumstances did they ever want to do THIS (image link).

Start in the Solomani Rim, go to Magyar, go to Daibei, go to Reaver's Deep, go to Ealiyasiyw, then finally Hlakhoi, which gives you entry to the rimward part of the J-5 corridor.

Solomani Rim = Solomani domniated sector
Magyar = Solomani dominated sector
Reaver's Deep = Contested sector during the middle of the Aslan Border Wars
Ealiyasiyw = Aslan controlled sector during the middle of the Aslan Border Wars
Hlakhoi = Aslan controlled sector during the middle of the Aslan Border Wars

Look, if you want to believe that all you need is one Aslan clan to act as "patron" to give your colonist convoy "safe passage" through Aslan controlled territory ... knock yourself out.

Just don't come crying to me when a different Aslan clan (of which there are plenty!) say they are not a party to the "safe passage" agreement given to you by your patron clan and your colonist convoy gets attacked because ... um ... there's a WAR GOING ON for land and territory at the time ...?

A war that had been going on for multiple centuries at that point?
I'm sure that news about it was in all the digital papers of the era ...

In point of fact, to use the Great Rift route through Aslan space, your Sword World colonists would have needed the patronage of many many MANY clans ... not just one ... in order to complete their sojourn through Aslan controlled space intact. The clan that controlled the J-5 Trade Route didn't necessarily control much to coreward or rimward of the route, so simply getting TO and FROM the J-5 Trade Route would have required the patronage of additional clans (possibly dozens of them).

Now, if you want to talk about how a non-J-5 ship gets across the J-5 passage, sure. That's a fair question.

I'll thank you to not gloss over that logistical challenge quite so blithely that you casually dismiss it.

But the Aslan have been doing it for a millennium, so I figure they know how to make it work.

Using specialized starship designs capable of making the voyage.

What makes you think that Solomani ships that need to be crammed full of colonists and their cargo are going to have the fuel fraction to spare for 5-6 parsec jaunts through jumpspace without refueling?

What makes you think they would have the cash resources to pay the Aslan with (specifically, the Ku Su'ikh corporation) to secure access to fuel caches needed to make the transit since the Solomani ships were unlikely to have been designed with sufficient endurance (while loaded with colonists and cargo) to be able to make the transit unaided.

Or to put it another way, a 20ft ladder is unlikely to help you get over a 50ft wall ... especially if you can't lash three 20ft ladders together (somehow) in order to give yourself a makeshift 50ft ladder for the task.

Just because the Aslan can transit the Great Rift in their starships doesn't mean that everyone can (if they only ask nicely).

Oh and did I mention that the Aslan Border Wars were a Thing™ at the time? Pretty sure I mentioned that at some point ...

 

[daryen]

Well, first, no, not Verge. That would be ridiculous. That obviously isn't going to happen. Yes, I am talking about the first path. Not necessarily that exact path, but, sure, that's close enough to get the idea down. Seriously, the idea of going sideways from Verge would never have even occurred to me. It's either the J-5 path through Aslan space, or around Vland through Corridor.

And what makes you think they would have the cash to buy off their human hunters and opponents? What makes you think Vland would give them passage? The Solomani who ended up at Darrian left from Dingir as an organized expedition when Vlani patronage (to an extent). They made sure to prepare and make sure they at least had a chance to get through. The Solomani who became the Sword Worlders were (according to the one source I saw) the losers of a war. They had war fleets and were able to regroup enough to make the attempt, but how do you think they would have any better chance going through Vlani space? (Seriously, humans hate humans harder than Aslans hate humans.) They were screwed either way. And, honestly, if they were *smart* they would have gone rimward and not challenged the Rift. But, here we are.

At least dealing with the Aslan, each clan is its own thing and just because one clan wants to kill you doesn't mean any other clan is necessarily going to care. With the Vlani, if you are being hunted, pretty much all of them are going to be hunting for you. Sure, there is some variance there, but they are still going to be much more homogeneous. Which is not working in your favor. Also, don't forget that the whole Corridor passage is also swarming with Vargr, so no guarantees on that path, either.

As for relations with the Aslan, no, I am not assuming they luck into a single "get through free" coupon from a single Aslan clan. They would have to negotiate every step of the way, and learn who they can work with and who they have to avoid. Good thing they are mostly former soldiers who lost a war and are running away in their warships. That actually probably both increases their bargaining position *and* gives them more to negotiate with.

As for the Aslan Border Wars, who cares? This was relatively late in the Long Night, so there were "border wars" everywhere. Plus, the Border Wars ran hot and cold; they apparently got lucky by hitting things during a cold spot. Going through populated space, whether human or Aslan, is going to be risky and unlikely of success. Again, going coreward was stupid of this group regardless; they should have gone rimward and just called it good. But they didn't, and honestly, taking their fleet through Aslan space isn't any crazier than going through human space through Corridor. Either way is ridiculously dangerous and has little chance of success.

Finally, do realize that all of this is irrelevant. If the entire Sword Worlds history has been redefined, then none of this even matters. My main point was that the Aslan do not care if humans, even large groups of humans, use their J-5 route. As long as the cash is good, you can go. They aren't trying to reserve anything for anyone. They're just making a buck like everyone else.

 

[Spinward Flow]

As for the Aslan Border Wars, who cares?

You have officially and conclusively Lost The Plot™.
Thank you for playing.

Either way is ridiculously dangerous and has little chance of success.

Corridor sector can be traversed by starships with a 2 parsec range.
The J-5 Trade Route through the Riftspan Reaches has a minimum unrefueled range requirement of ... what again?

Ever heard of the phrase "you can't get there from here" before?
Yeah ... Jump-2 starships of Solomani build (especially if they're warships that lost a war!) are not going to be range 5+ parsec capable by design.
Sorry. Thank you for playing.

 

[Spinward Flow]

And what makes you think they would have the cash to buy off their human hunters and opponents?

They left from TERRA in -420.
Vland is 4 SECTORS away.

Why would anyone in Vland sector care about some losers leaving to settle out on the fringes of known space? I mean, they're just passing through ... not wanting to settle down in Vland sector, right?

If the Sword World fleet "retreats" completely out of range to become a non-entity where they started from, let the refugees GO. For one thing, it solves the problem of needing to pacify them. They are literally giving up and quitting he field in perpetuity. The only reason to persecute them after their defeat would be to waste resources better spent elsewhere and for zealotry.

They were defeated.
They DEPARTED in a rather permanent way, leaving the victors unchallenged.

Not only would you want to LET them go, you would ENCOURAGE them to go ... so you don't have to deal with them as a persistent force resisting occupation and rule by the winners.

Go ... begone with you.
Go be someone else's problem.
Just go.

 

[Garnfellow]

Soooooooooo. Anyone think Traveller Map should more closely reflect the number of clan and Tlaukhu bases expected from CT Aslan worldgen?

 

[Spinward Flow]

Soooooooooo. Anyone think Traveller Map should more closely reflect the number of clan and Tlaukhu bases expected from CT Aslan worldgen?

AYE.

 

[PVernon]

I would say yes as well.

 

[daryen]

Go ... begone with you.
Go be someone else's problem.
Just go.

Ha! Like that's happening.

But, I'm just repeating myself now, so no point in continuing. I will repeat two points, though:
1. The Aslan don't care who crosses the J-5 corridor. If you can play the game well enough, they will let anyone through.
2. The GT:SW book does have the humans doing it. Whether it is considered "official" or not, whether you have the imagination to make it work or not, whether you think GT is garbage or not, it is the story given in GT:SW. And it was written by someone who knew more about Traveller history than both of us combined.

 

[Spinward Flow]

1. The Aslan don't care who crosses the J-5 corridor.

When was that true?
For all of Aslan history ... or is that a recent development?
Would the clan that controls the route permit their clan enemies to use it (if paid a sufficiently large bribe)?

In other words, are there ANY CIRCUMSTANCES AT ALL under which cooperation might be denied?
Are there ANY CIRCUMSTANCES AT ALL under which cooperation ought to be pre-emptively presumed would be denied?

If you can play the game well enough, they will let anyone through.

So will casinos ... but that doesn't mean that everyone who walks into a casino will be a winner.
Some will ... but not all will ... and you can't "plan" to be a winner before you walk into the casino.
You can "stack the odds" in your favor before walking in using skills and technique ... but that prep work doesn't deterministically control what's going to happen with absolute certainty.



And you still haven't supplied an adequate answer to the question of how Jump-2 capable starships (at best) would be able to achieve a 5 parsec range so as to complete the transit while laden with refugees and their belongings. The only answer you've provided amounts to a "wish and a prayer" that some Aslan clan will (in effect) "take pity on them" and drag them across the Great Rift on an essentially charity basis.

When the Solomani convoy arrives at the Great Rift, unable to cross it without EXTENSIVE (and presumably expensive!) assistance ... there are basically three options to choose from for the Aslan clan.

1. Let them bribe you to help them across the Great Rift
2. Decline their offer and tell them to go back where they came from
3. Attack them and take all their stuff in retribution for the insult they've given you (real or pretextual)

The Aslan clan was presumably under no prior obligations to render aid and assistance to a group of Solomani refugees from Terra (and if they were, the Aslan clan can argue that the prior obligation was not great enough to meet the reciprocal value of the request).



Your fixation on the J-5 Trade Route being the path the Sword Worlders took from Terra to Gram bears a striking resemblance to this plan ...

I keep telling you there's a problem with assuming that Jump-2 starships are capable of crossing 5 parsecs of deep space in the Great Rift.
You keep saying that's not a problem at all ... because ... see: Phase 2 in the image above.

I keep telling you there was an alternative route (through Corridor sector) that would have been known at the time as being a pathway for a Jump-2 fleet of starships to traverse without requiring much in the way of assistance (aside from fuel and life support consumables replenishment).
You keep saying that such an alternative is unworkable and DEFINITELY wasn't used because ... excuses.



So riddle me this then.
If the Sword World fleet of refugees made their transit across the Great Rift instead of through Corridor sector ... wouldn't that event have left an indelible mark of GRATITUDE on the Sword World colonists such that even up through the present day the citizens of the Sword Worlds would be predisposed towards being friendly to ALL Aslan in preference to being friendly with all other branches of Humaniti in Charted Space? I mean, that's the kind of thing that ought to be REMEMBERED and passed down through the generations, right?

And yet, I am unable to find any such reference to such an historical "race memory" among the Sword Worlds where their citizen descendants are predisposed to view the Aslan more favorably than any of their immediate neighbors (Darrian, Zhodani, Imperials, etc.).



I await your honorable reply.

 

[Condottiere]

1. Gigantic dreadnought escort option.

2. Their greatest warriors could wear lion pelts, in preference to bear and wolf pelts.

3. Casino win win scenario - laundry day.

 

[daryen]

Use the GT:SW method: Save their butts. Now they *owe* you.

Anyway, I thought we were done here? Seriously, there is obviously nothing I can tell you that will make it work for you. That's obviously impossible. And that's fine. We don't need to agree. My points still stand. You still reject them. It's all good.