I'd assume you misheard this or it was bogus from the get-go. Carbon dating is not accurate (at least as of when I was in engineering and studying geology in the late 80s) to more than about 30-50K years. So anything 'carbon dated' (as opposed to a large number of other possible dating mechanisms) at one million years old is bogus. Unless my memory utterly fails me, which it has from time to time.
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- Thread starter jasper
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What is a lie? It sounds like everyone is leaning towards a definition that it is willful and knowing deception by a sophont of another sophont. Willful, in that you had a choice but chose to be deceptive. Knowing, because it implies you realize you are being deceptive (it is not an inadvertent or unknowing untruth). Deceptive, because you are not telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
So, if this is the case, maybe *lower* animals do not lie. As you get into chimps, gorillas, etc, I'm not so sure. And my dogs and cats have intelligence. They may not have thumbs nor use tools, but they are inteligent. In fact, god help us if the cats or dogs ever do get to use tools... <*grin>
I see lying broken down in several ways in Zho society:
Proles - Proles not in military or diplomatic or trade services on the borders of the empire: They would just find it uncomfortable to lie. They would feel bad about it and they know the Tavchredl would eventually find out and have a chat with them. Those on the borders or who engage in contact with outsiders would have to understand lying and would have to be able to spot it. Some of them would be required to dissemble in order to work and achieve the required objectives. They might even feel unclean or that they need to atone later or be 're-adjusted' before re-integrating into mainstream Zho society.
Intendants - Less managed, more likely to lie. Most lying they'd do would be 'for the good of the people' or 'for the good of the state'. They may similarly be split between near the border/away from the border types. But any intendant will be more likely to lie (though not still necessarily likely to lie) than a prole.
Noble - These guys may believe in their society so choose not to lie very often, but they certainly have the capacity. They have to deal with things that the other strata can be unaware of or would find disturbing. So they need all the tools. Again, they may well lie 'for the good of the people' or 'for the good of the state'.
Tavchredl and SORAG - These guys are professional liars. Some probably reach the point where reality is malleable to them, so what is a lie? It is just another interpretation - the good fact vs. the true fact.
I suspect the most likely danger is that those Zhos who are in contact with the outside world may start lying for less than noble reasons because they see how successful it can be (lured by the dark side) or because they start to feel that there really isn't any particular truth - it is just a matter of presentation. I can see this being a real danger for SORAG agents and the like - when you lie for a living, it becomes prevasive and it corrupts you.
Jatay3, let me suggest we not argue about evolution here. Most humbly, I submit it is NOT a theory in some respects. It still classifies as a theory for explaining the creation of life and how the worlds and cosmos came to be. I submit that it does not classify as a theory for explaining smaller things like how bird A evolved into bird A-prime. The fossil and other evidence on the smaller scale proves beyond any reasonable doubt that evolution (the changing of life by mutation and combination over generations) is a PROCESS. That doesn't mean it can explain life on Earth, in that I will agree. But if you throw the whole thing out or change your textbooks to teach it as 'just a theory', you do a dis-service to literally MOUNTAINS of scientific paleontological evidence and observation. No disrespect offered, I hope you understand.
So, if this is the case, maybe *lower* animals do not lie. As you get into chimps, gorillas, etc, I'm not so sure. And my dogs and cats have intelligence. They may not have thumbs nor use tools, but they are inteligent. In fact, god help us if the cats or dogs ever do get to use tools... <*grin>
I see lying broken down in several ways in Zho society:
Proles - Proles not in military or diplomatic or trade services on the borders of the empire: They would just find it uncomfortable to lie. They would feel bad about it and they know the Tavchredl would eventually find out and have a chat with them. Those on the borders or who engage in contact with outsiders would have to understand lying and would have to be able to spot it. Some of them would be required to dissemble in order to work and achieve the required objectives. They might even feel unclean or that they need to atone later or be 're-adjusted' before re-integrating into mainstream Zho society.
Intendants - Less managed, more likely to lie. Most lying they'd do would be 'for the good of the people' or 'for the good of the state'. They may similarly be split between near the border/away from the border types. But any intendant will be more likely to lie (though not still necessarily likely to lie) than a prole.
Noble - These guys may believe in their society so choose not to lie very often, but they certainly have the capacity. They have to deal with things that the other strata can be unaware of or would find disturbing. So they need all the tools. Again, they may well lie 'for the good of the people' or 'for the good of the state'.
Tavchredl and SORAG - These guys are professional liars. Some probably reach the point where reality is malleable to them, so what is a lie? It is just another interpretation - the good fact vs. the true fact.
I suspect the most likely danger is that those Zhos who are in contact with the outside world may start lying for less than noble reasons because they see how successful it can be (lured by the dark side) or because they start to feel that there really isn't any particular truth - it is just a matter of presentation. I can see this being a real danger for SORAG agents and the like - when you lie for a living, it becomes prevasive and it corrupts you.
Jatay3, let me suggest we not argue about evolution here. Most humbly, I submit it is NOT a theory in some respects. It still classifies as a theory for explaining the creation of life and how the worlds and cosmos came to be. I submit that it does not classify as a theory for explaining smaller things like how bird A evolved into bird A-prime. The fossil and other evidence on the smaller scale proves beyond any reasonable doubt that evolution (the changing of life by mutation and combination over generations) is a PROCESS. That doesn't mean it can explain life on Earth, in that I will agree. But if you throw the whole thing out or change your textbooks to teach it as 'just a theory', you do a dis-service to literally MOUNTAINS of scientific paleontological evidence and observation. No disrespect offered, I hope you understand.
bird A evolved into bird A-prime. The fossil and other evidence on the smaller scale proves be
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Oh, well bird A-bird B doesn't concern me, for it is essentially another form of "dogbreeding". How far it can be extended is another matter. But I agree-lets not talk about it.
I am still interested in what happens to a Zho when the "programming" breaks down. It does seem likly that there will be a "crash".
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Oh, well bird A-bird B doesn't concern me, for it is essentially another form of "dogbreeding". How far it can be extended is another matter. But I agree-lets not talk about it.
I am still interested in what happens to a Zho when the "programming" breaks down. It does seem likly that there will be a "crash".
I really would like to chill on evoulution because debate on a subject which one might feel duty bound to respond to is fun for a while but after that it keeps carrying you on. It is like pac-man in it's addiction: fun at first but torture latter and you can't stop. I remember a debate with Drakon on the same subject. It went on for weeks and weeks until I was sick of it and probably everyone else was as well.
However Traveller is not likly (?) to carry the same emotional baggage with it.
So again: what happens to a Zho when the anti-lie program crashes
However Traveller is not likly (?) to carry the same emotional baggage with it.
So again: what happens to a Zho when the anti-lie program crashes
I would think that zho have the same capacity to lie as any other branch of humaniti but have had it supressed by the rigid and totally effective psy-cops. sort of like pavlovs dogs being conditioned.
basically i dont think it is a racial trait but a cultural one imposed by the mind benders.
basically i dont think it is a racial trait but a cultural one imposed by the mind benders.
Actually i'm not sure the difference between a racial trait and a cultural trait is that great the two are all tangled in any case-what a culture values affects how it breeds for one thing. Humans change more because of culture than birth in any case. However the "mind-program" is so unusual a method that I wonder if it has a backlash when it is no longer there to bolster a Zho.
I remember that Spartans out of their exagerrated machoness used only iron bars for money.
When they found out what silver would do their avarice became a proverb. Of course stories about Spartans are often told by-Athenians-so one can wonder. Still it does seem plausible.
The Zho method seems even more extreme than the Spartan and I was wondering...
I remember that Spartans out of their exagerrated machoness used only iron bars for money.
When they found out what silver would do their avarice became a proverb. Of course stories about Spartans are often told by-Athenians-so one can wonder. Still it does seem plausible.
The Zho method seems even more extreme than the Spartan and I was wondering...
With appologies to Kaladorn and Janus...
Carbon Dating has evolved into a generic term for all forms of radio-isotopic dating. Whether your system measures Argon, potassium, uranium, helium or whatever, the term Radiocarbon dating has been adopted to describe the process. Just like the terms Crescent Wrench, Velcro and Scotch Tape. The term simply gives a reference point to those that have the basics of the science down pat, but not the more advanced material.
(This entry was ranted to me by one of the geology professors at MSUM when I made similar comments regarding the accuracy of the term Carbon-Dating during a lecture.)
Carbon Dating has evolved into a generic term for all forms of radio-isotopic dating. Whether your system measures Argon, potassium, uranium, helium or whatever, the term Radiocarbon dating has been adopted to describe the process. Just like the terms Crescent Wrench, Velcro and Scotch Tape. The term simply gives a reference point to those that have the basics of the science down pat, but not the more advanced material.
(This entry was ranted to me by one of the geology professors at MSUM when I made similar comments regarding the accuracy of the term Carbon-Dating during a lecture.)
From our POV, it sure is unusual. But actually, the Zhodani minds are not any more "programmed" than ours are. The Zhodani programming is just more structured.
All humans (I assume this works even for far-distant humans) are mentally shaped by three factors: Genes, upbringing and environment. The Zhodani have a much greater understanding on how the latter two work than we do, and they use this knowledge to control these factors to achieve specific, precise results.
A Zhodani who comes into contact with a "deviant" culture like us would in all likeliness completely fail to see any positive points in it - and vice versa. In both cases, it is because their culture has shaped them into the opposite direction. The assumption that a Zhodani would revert to the "natural" state of 21st-century Western culture when exposed to it is flawed, because this culture isn't any more natural than any others.
Regards,
Tobias
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
"So again: what happens to a Zho when the anti-lie program crashes"
Normally he would be detected and cured by the Tavrchedl' before this happened, or he would turn himself in for treatment.
Normally he would be detected and cured by the Tavrchedl' before this happened, or he would turn himself in for treatment.
just reread some stuff about when the ancients started taking humans. it was after the advent of homo sapiens and before the arrival of neaderthal man and cro magnon. so yes i suppose zho could be radically disimilar to solomani.
just one more way zho are inferior to the true men.
Long live the fighters of the Solomani cause!!!
just one more way zho are inferior to the true men.
Long live the fighters of the Solomani cause!!!
Hideous thought:
for thousands of years the Tavershedle have been engaged in Eugenics...
wild hair theory
those who have had to undergo reeducation are also reduced in sexual drive (or homosexually reoriented) by the Tavershedle conditioning... for a hundred generations... Honesty may actually bred for, as well as pliability, and thus reinforced by the non-broken being allowed a normal sex drive.
In such a situation, those traits that make one intentionally deceitful could be reduced in the population.
And AM Zhodani makes it clear they really are honest as a people, proles far more than nobles. Not that everyone agrees, but that a Zhodani prole will not lie intentionally; h may share innacurate but believed knowledge, or misinformation he's been given, or opinion; he may even refuse comment. But he's NOT likely to willingly deceive others; such is a major crime and mandatory reeducation.
for thousands of years the Tavershedle have been engaged in Eugenics...
wild hair theory
those who have had to undergo reeducation are also reduced in sexual drive (or homosexually reoriented) by the Tavershedle conditioning... for a hundred generations... Honesty may actually bred for, as well as pliability, and thus reinforced by the non-broken being allowed a normal sex drive.
In such a situation, those traits that make one intentionally deceitful could be reduced in the population.
And AM Zhodani makes it clear they really are honest as a people, proles far more than nobles. Not that everyone agrees, but that a Zhodani prole will not lie intentionally; h may share innacurate but believed knowledge, or misinformation he's been given, or opinion; he may even refuse comment. But he's NOT likely to willingly deceive others; such is a major crime and mandatory reeducation.
