Astroidic Ships

[Malenfant]

Yes, which is what I said in the reply above

- what you were 'very wrong' about was that they were FTL and that nothing can ever block them.

Superdense material might conceivably block them more effectively though - and by "superdense" I don't mean "heavy stable transuranic element", I mean "collapsed material like the high TL superdense armours". The logic being that if you have more atoms packed very closely together (much more so than in normal matter), then you make it more likely for the neutrinos to interact with them and be absorbed. That assumes of course that the neutrinos don't usually interact with matter because they're more likely to go between the gaps between the atoms, though.

 

[Malenfant]

Doing some more research, I found out a few interesting things - REALLY superdense material (probably much denser than ship hulls can be made of in Trav - we're talking about stuff at the core of neutron stars) can block neutrinos by dint of there being more nucleons for them to interact with. But the partially collapsed "superdense" armour of Traveller ships (which is still light and fluffy compared to a neutron star's core) would need to be on the order of 10^6 to 10^8 km thick to block neutrinos!

Also, neutrinos are apparently immune to strong and electromagnetic forces. They basically interact with matter via the weak force, by a tiny chance that they can make nucleons (usually neutrons) decay into protons. That makes me wonder if neutrinos can be affected by nuclear dampers, which can affect the weak interactions between materials too. Though the only use I can think for a nuclear damper in this context is that it would make materials more resistant to interacting with neutrinos by reducing the weak force (which I imagine would mean than it'd be harder to detect neutrinos using a neutrino detector in the presence of an active nuclear damper) - or they could make it easier for material to interact with neutrinos by increasing the weak interactions, but I dunno if that could be increased to the point of disintegrating matter (I guess that comes at later TLs).

All of which is somewhat off the topic of asteroids. Bottom line is that you certainly wouldn't be able to block neutrinos coming from fusion reactors inside them... hrm. Unless you had an ablative layer of the hull with nuclear dampers in it that forced the neutrinos to be absorbed before they left the ship??

 

[aramis]

Neutrino emmissions are THE way to detect asteroid ships.

Random decay is dwarfed by even a small fission plant, which is in turn amazingly dim compared to stars, fusion reactors, and fusion or fission bombs.

Fortunately, Neutrinos interact very poorly. The extant tanks recieve a tiny variation from the shielding of the earth itself, and they measure reactions per week per cubic meter... from the solar sources! Day and night timme difference is small, but noteable. Detections are in fact directional.

Traveller Neutrino sensors must be some form of neutrino screening which counts sudden reactions on it's effective face. So, if they can force detections in tanks less than a few thousand kilolitres, then they can probably also block them with some form of field based shielding... perhaps a physical one instead...

but that's a WAG.

In short, they are great because they can tell you the magnitude and type of reaction. They suck because they rely upon unobtanium solutions.

Now, to make your asteroid ship viable, run everything standby off RTG's (Radio Thermal Generators), as they produce a relatively good decay rate, and are, if large enough to make for even a passable ion drive thrust, large enough to attract miners in the first place!

 

[TheEngineer]

Besides the MT task to "cold-start" a starship/power plant is
Routine, Engineering, 5 min
A warm start goes:
Routine, Engineering, 30 sec

A bit interesting is the rules statement, that a powerplant stays "warm" for about 8 days.....
(MT Encyclopedia, Travelling)

 

[BetterThanLife]

OK does a Warm Powerplant still give off neutrinos?

Hiding a spaceship is still going to be a bear. Especially with the Long, long range of higher level passive sensors. (T20 and MT being the two that I am familiar with.)

Originally posted by TheEngineer:
Besides the MT task to "cold-start" a starship/power plant is
Routine, Engineering, 5 min
A warm start goes:
Routine, Engineering, 30 sec

A bit interesting is the rules statement, that a powerplant stays "warm" for about 8 days.....
(MT Encyclopedia, Travelling)

 

[TheEngineer]

Well its not stated in the rules, but I guess keeping warm a fusion reactor could mean that temperature goes below a million degrees and thus its too cold, brrrrrr, to proceed in fusion.
But theres still plasma in the fusion chamber.

The sensor thing is another problem. MT construction rules say, that a PP output of < 1000 MW combined with an EMM package results in "no emission". I dont know how a "no emission" craft is handled by the rules further .
But anyway I guess my poor little rock could at least be detected and pinpointed by a densiometer scan, if the sensors is near enough.
Sadly I cannot find any useful "general" sensoring rules in MT. In space combat its all just about fairly short ranges (<1000000 km). Perhaps I take a look back in some old stuff. I guess there were more detailed rules in Grand Survey...

 

[fredofmars]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
<snip> Also, neutrinos are apparently immune to strong and electromagnetic forces. They basically interact with matter via the weak force, by a tiny chance that they can make nucleons (usually neutrons) decay into protons. That makes me wonder if neutrinos can be affected by nuclear dampers, which can affect the weak interactions between materials too. Though the only use I can think for a nuclear damper in this context is that it would make materials more resistant to interacting with neutrinos by reducing the weak force </snip>

Bing! You have just discovered the technology used for "Neutrino Sensors" in MT. People have complained that detecting neutrinos should require massive pools of water or some other huge sensor, but we can see now that all we need is a small Nuclear Damper unit (in a similar sense that we use a small Meson Screen unit for Meson Comms).
- Joseph

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Joseph Kimball:
Bing! You have just discovered the technology used for "Neutrino Sensors" in MT. People have complained that detecting neutrinos should require massive pools of water or some other huge sensor, but we can see now that all we need is a small Nuclear Damper unit (in a similar sense that we use a small Meson Screen unit for Meson Comms).
[/QB]

Yeah, that's pretty much how I think neutrino sensors have to work. Though you still have the problem of getting something useful out of them. See, you can't actually detect neutrinos directly - instead, you detect the effects that the odd few of them that interact with matter have. The flash of light that's detected in the neutrino tanks I described earlier is actually coming from the electron that is emitted as a result of the interaction with the neutrino - not the neutrino itself.. so while with a nuclear damper you could require a hell of a lot less material for the neutrinos to interact with (by forcing them to interact with more or all matter that they pass through), you still have to have it react with SOMETHING in a way that you can detect (water or bleach has the nice property of being transparent ).

I still think Meson Guns would be better off being described as "Neutrino Guns" though. Maybe they're actually an "area effect" weapon - the point they're aimed at is somehow tweaked so that all the neutrinos going through it at that time are made to suddenly interact with matter. All the radiation from that (especially given the whopping great fusion reactor in the back of the ship that's churning out those neutrinos) would have a similar effect to a Meson Gun explosion, I think.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
I still think Meson Guns would be better off being described as "Neutrino Guns" though. Maybe they're actually an "area effect" weapon - the point they're aimed at is somehow tweaked so that all the neutrinos going through it at that time are made to suddenly interact with matter. All the radiation from that (especially given the whopping great fusion reactor in the back of the ship that's churning out those neutrinos) would have a similar effect to a Meson Gun explosion, I think.

That's kind of an interesting path, close to some of my own ideas. Problem is then if you're relying on other sources for your neutrinos (local stars, background sources, or that fusion reactor) then the actual chance of and level of damage is dependant on that too. So little ships with tiny reactors (or no fusion at all) will be practically immune to even the biggest meson/neutrino cannon, while huge ships with high power fusion reactors are sitting ducks for anything the screens can't deflect. Besides, the level of concentration to reach the type of damage we're talking, well, my Belief Suspenders(tm) are finite

 

[Malenfant]

There's possibly enough neutrinos just zipping through space to cause damage if they all popped out at once. (I think I read that there was about 55 neutrinos going through each cubic centimetre at any given time on average! Though that might just be here on Earth.)

I dunno, it's an idea. I have proposed the "area effect" idea for meson guns before on an earlier thread about them.

 

[aramis]

Propylene Glycol in water is the solution used by the current systems. Basically, anti-freeze.

I don't quite understand the mechanics, but I seem to recall something about PG amplifying the effect of a neutrino encounter.

But, yeah, put that weak-field enhancer on the smaller tank, and wham! you can probably get a much better interaction ratio.

 

[Malenfant]

The first neutrino tank used perchloroethylene - an interaction with a neutrino changed a chlorine atom in the compound to argon, which could then be detected.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
I still think Meson Guns would be better off being described as "Neutrino Guns" though. Maybe they're actually an "area effect" weapon - the point they're aimed at is somehow tweaked so that all the neutrinos going through it at that time are made to suddenly interact with matter. All the radiation from that (especially given the whopping great fusion reactor in the back of the ship that's churning out those neutrinos) would have a similar effect to a Meson Gun explosion, I think.

For every type of neutrino there is an antineutrino, so a plausible explanation for the "meson" gun is that it generates two beams, one of neutrinos and one of antineutrinos, which it fires to intersect at the target location where they annihilate one another in a burst of electrons and positrons.
Now the neutrinos themselves are generated by colliding a beam of positrons and electrons (easy -we can do that now) but directing the neutrinos will require a greater ability to manipulate the weak force.
Hmm, meson guns TL11, nuclear dampers and "meson" screens TL12...

By the way Mal, I still like your "spacetime twanger" as a weapon for very high TL's, I've got a rough outline of how it works now...

 

[Antony]

I actually read somewhere (unfortunately I cannot remember where) that "Meson Beams" in Traveller were generated by colliding a positron and electron beam. Now at this stage the two beams can be both accelerated and aimed so the collision to generate the "Meson Beam" or neutrino beam could occur after this.

I also remember reading about how during the N'th wars the Terrans developed "meson weaponry" which came as a real shock to the Vilani who had not and had also not as a consequence developed the Meson screen!

 

[coldwar]

Neutrino emmissions are THE way to detect asteroid ships.

You may detect one but how far away and which direction(You will need at least six Detectors to find both as space is 3D and the longer the recorded distance is the more inaccurate it is) so finding an Astroid Vessel in an Astroid Field alone you need to search every astroid in possiblity. if more they can search a certain area idicated by basic direction and mathimatical movement Pridictions. And as theres many Neutrinos in space how can you tell which is which.
Basically you need large groups of vessels working together to find directions and distances.


I still think Meson Guns would be better off being described as "Neutrino Guns" though.

A Meson is a Living thing with an Extremly short Lifespan. A Neutrino is a loss High speed neutron with a never failing speed until it hit's something and only on averge estimates slow down by 1 to 2 Kmp which is not much.
and Neutrino weapons would be great they need to hit something themselves and be directed in to the direction which would be impossible except as a Nuclear weapon which has been known to be made and called Neutron Bombs. On impact when the Normal Explosion begins its sets a second explosion of in a 3rd chamber which releases neutrinos, The reactions and materials are Vived as much as they have not been tested in full(fully tested in Controlled miniture scale, versions but nothing else.)

I think I read that there was about 55 neutrinos going through each cubic centimetre at any given time on average! Though that might just be here on Earth.

actually a bit more but then they don't wan't to scare People of being hit by a Neutrino and be caught in a photon Explosion(Correct Term is actaully Implosion but causes Explosion arond it, Remember a SuperNova implodes at it's end and thats when the highest count of neutrinos can be recorded.) and the being on Earth around 3 types of radiation(Including Nuclear pass thought us a second Harmlessly. These include Neutrinos, Cosmic Radiation, Gamma,Beta or Alpha(one can go thought use totally but forgot which one, one just its us and the last can get in but fails to get fully past.) radition, X-Ray's, microwave, radioWaves and many more if iwas to name all of my head i'll be called a Radiation geek, but i'm not i've only got a human brain.

Bing! You have just discovered the technology used for "Neutrino Sensors" in MT. People have complained that detecting neutrinos should require massive pools of water or some other huge sensor, but we can see now that all we need is a small Nuclear Damper unit (in a similar sense that we use a small Meson Screen unit for Meson Comms).

The most effective way with only on ship( also a good light display thought you might want to were protective eye goggles or you go blind). But you've still got the problem of the distance and time gap it might be 4 years old but that means a lot of distance covered plus on top of that you have other neutrino sources telling on from the other will take ages even Decades but with the right technology it is the way forward in hunting astroid vessels and Vessels hiding behind large Astroids, Planets and even Stars with better technology.
Nat

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Deathwisher:
[QB]You may detect one but how far away and which direction(You will need at least six Detectors to find both as space is 3D and the longer the recorded distance is the more inaccurate it is) so finding an Astroid Vessel in an Astroid Field alone you need to search every astroid in possiblity.

you'll know they're in the neighbourhood, definitely. Perhaps you can set up a directional sensor by having several detectors scattered around the ship and measuring the time difference between neutrino arrivals (that's basicallly how it works on Earth). Presumably that's already factored into the size of the sensor.

A Meson is a Living thing with an Extremly short Lifespan. A Neutrino is a loss High speed neutron with a never failing speed until it hit's something and only on averge estimates slow down by 1 to 2 Kmp which is not much.
and Neutrino weapons would be great they need to hit something themselves and be directed in to the direction which would be impossible except as a Nuclear weapon which has been known to be made and called Neutron Bombs. On impact when the Normal Explosion begins its sets a second explosion of in a 3rd chamber which releases neutrinos, The reactions and materials are Vived as much as they have not been tested in full(fully tested in Controlled miniture scale, versions but nothing else.)

I don't think I understood a word you said here or afterwards - you're not explaining yourself well at all
(though neutrinos are nothing to do with neutron bombs).

 

[aramis]

Neat think about the Neutrino Sensors: A single install is directional. (Current ones, at least, provide some directionality. I don't see why higher tech ones would not...)

You'd want two widely separated to make specific detections.

At three, you can make detailed neutrino-source maps.

No sensor grid ever needs mre than four points for true directionality in 3d, provided it either provides distance OR bearing. (Go play with Elpers... you'll learn) With bearings, you only need two to pinpoint.

With distance derivations, one need only have 3. Two provide a ring of possibility, and the third knocks it to 2 potential points. A 4th knocks out on of those two points.

Now, since eutrino sensors work by creating interactions which create bubble and light trails in solutions, if we assume a relatively hopped up interaction courtesy of weak field manipulation (which isabout the only way to match the size reductions), we get much more strongly a direction signal.

We get a magnitude and a direction; from that we can get a sight-line in 3D. Take another measurement 20 minutes later, and you now have a 2-bearing 3d fix; you check for any objects which were on bearing one, and are also now on bearing two. One of those is your source, and in most cases, the lines will intercept on source if source is not moving.

 

[Malenfant]

I think you can actually get a direction just from measuring the very very small time difference between events on different sides of a single detector today. You don't need to space things that widely apart.

 

[fredofmars]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph Kimball:
Bing! You have just discovered the technology used for "Neutrino Sensors" in MT. People have complained that detecting neutrinos should require massive pools of water or some other huge sensor, but we can see now that all we need is a small Nuclear Damper unit (in a similar sense that we use a small Meson Screen unit for Meson Comms).

Yeah, that's pretty much how I think neutrino sensors have to work. Though you still have the problem of getting something useful out of them. See, you can't actually detect neutrinos directly - instead, you detect the effects that the odd few of them that interact with matter have. The flash of light that's detected in the neutrino tanks I described earlier is actually coming from the electron that is emitted as a result of the interaction with the neutrino - not the neutrino itself.. so while with a nuclear damper you could require a hell of a lot less material for the neutrinos to interact with (by forcing them to interact with more or all matter that they pass through), you still have to have it react with SOMETHING in a way that you can detect (water or bleach has the nice property of being transparent ).<snip>[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]IIRC Neutrino Sensors in MT do get smaller as TL goes up, so that could be partly a response to requiring less "sensor" material (water, bleach, etc.) to watch.
- Joseph

 

[coldwar]

Measure 3D in 4 points is on a surface object.
all Galactic Maps have 6 points to measure from. therefore to determane a direction and distance you require 6 points.(Six points from a cube and are used to find the direct centre of relation to each other. ( all need to be perfectly lined up and at the same distance to at least 3 other Vessels.) Once you have a centre you can determine direction of source's.

One Detector is a poor way to find distances as in World War 2. The Use of radar needed to work with several Radar's Working together to determine accurate height's and Distances and direction of there Position and there travel.
Remember one radar is good enough to find the height and distance as long as you know the freqency and good at math's.

I think you can actually get a direction just from measuring the very very small time difference between events on different sides of a single detector today. You don't need to space things that widely apart.

Not in most cases as most events are emissions from the stations receiving rebounds of its Emissions. Also you are correct that in hearing but a Mechanical or eletronic devices cannot work as fast as the human brain. And only gives out either of two basic numbers 1 or 0(1=on, 0=Off) even computers work by these numbers and they can only store a certain amount in a Hard Drive at a time. So measurements can be even a degree out. Which Means alot of distance the further the Source is away from the detector.