Attacking out of the Sun

[Matt123]

Thanks Elhombre, I think... I'm about a third of the way through the bun fight, ah, debate.

So far the most compelling arguements assume a 'military grade' sensor suite and effective comms between at least two widely seperated observation points. Two orbiting earth satelites do the trick of ensuring you do not have a sun blind spot.

So I have to conclude sadly that on a military level any system that could afford two military satelites (D+ starport I guess) placed in widely seperated orbits, would not be fooled. Of course there is still room for operator error, sabotage, incompetence, bribary, etc but my main question has been answered. Biggles would get toasted.

Regards only one sensor looking into the sun, the logic runs that just as in 'black space' you are looking for temperature differentials, creating a 'cool' spot within the sun. My punt is that identifying that 'cool' spot would be difficult due to the background intensity, at least partially obscuring your actions.

Jurys still out on commercial sensors and/or being able to establish links with other commercial sensor suites. Would most worlds/starports provide this info automatically, on request, or charge a fee. Would a starship captain care enough to request it or even do anything other than a cursory look around the vicinity for immediate threats. Would starports just do thier own scans & merely advise craft of problems. And of course in cannon, sensors do have a range limit.

& no, Biggles doesn't approach civilians from out of the sun. Unless they are suspected pirates...

 

[Renaissance Man]

This is a nascent debate about stealth in space. So I will out and out say where I stand on it:

It's exceedingly difficult, and requires favourable conditions mixed with craftiness to actually achieve. It's a marginal case at best.

However, that doesn't mean that space combat isn't about the struggle to detect and get a sensor lock on your opponent. What substitutes for stealth is electronic warfare... ship-to-ship sensor spoofing using dueling signal arrays, and even computer hacking (assuming your ship's computer is open to computer communications.) It isn't necessarily as cool as submarine combat, but I expect that control over the signals that float through space is very important in combat -- especially when one considers that the "zero emissions" scenario is impossible.

How this would resolve itself in rules and tech... well I'm not sure.

IMHO one of the side benefits to saying you can't hide in space is that it makes fighters a viable space combat option again. Why? Many separate small hostiles mean more targets. You can only engage a number of targets equal to your various turrets and mounts at any one time, and yet if you don't disable them all, any one of them can do damage to you. Assuming you can mount weapons on a 20 or 30 dt fighter that pose a credible threat to a battle cruiser. According to the prevailing reading of TL 15 traveller space combat rules the answer is no... I disagree to some degree with this because I find it hard to believe that the armour that protects the main hull of the ship can equally protect sensors, weapon mounts, thermal exhaust arrays or drives, and the like. But all this has been spoken about before.

I like the Atomic Rocket site because it goes for the hardest sf possible, which is a good starting point (I like rigour), but then has to invite the handwaves to the party sooner or later with FTL travel, etc. etc. If we take the rigorous application of science to sf and walk it back step by step to Traveller, I think we get a great blend of hard sf and space opera. You want stealth in space, then just take another step away from hard sf and have a ball. Myself, I want to make as few steps like that as possible, and where I do, preserve internal consistency to the concessions I make.

 

[ElHombre]

If you're looking to sneak up on a planet from space, your best bet isn't stealth. It's smuggling. Do what they expect to happen and plan your shennanigans from there. Why not? It worked for the Rebels in 'Return of the Jedi'.

 

[Matt123]

If you're looking to sneak up on a planet from space, your best bet isn't stealth. It's smuggling. Do what they expect to happen and plan your shennanigans from there. Why not? It worked for the Rebels in 'Return of the Jedi'.

No it was just one of those oddball things that strikes you when reading a debate, hiding in the sun seemed an obvious one to discuss & it wasn't addressed. I'm in sympathy with RM in that whilst I like the imagery, I'm not that interested in 'breaking' stuff to get it.

In my mind at least tho', if you have to attack a military instalation, being in the sun can't hurt & who knows, the gods may be smiling on you today. I wouldn't like to bet on it tho'.

Cheers!

 

[Renaissance Man]

Just thought I'd revive this age-old discussion with a new variable... could a kind of stealth be possible in space with metamaterials that have a negative refraction index?

If I understand the principle correctly, the control of a ship's refraction index to the point of dipping it into the negatives could confuse sensors, even trick them into seeing the ship's emissions as insignificant. This would force the use of AEMS in order to ping suspicious objects with a variety of wavelengths to defeat the masking. Right now, the way it stands, nobody really ever needs to use AEMS short of getting a weapons lock... PEMS pretty much finds everything. Who needs a high sensor ops skill if we take Atomic Rocket as gospel?

 

[G. Fieendish]

Well, I was just discussing Black Globes with someone recently and we got into how to use them and that lead to the very concept you also have.

My thought was to Jump in (with exit plots at the ready) as you said behind a gas giant preferably, for refuel if possible or a star for the additional rad masking, pop on the BGs and coast in to the target, drop BG, fire missile and spinal barrage, BG back up heading for the Jump Point, get to Jump Point, use any charges absorbed by the BG to power the zuchai crystals, energize Jump Grid and away we go!

So, I too am curious what peeps with real math and science skills have to say about this, could be very important some day.

This reminds me of the Nemesis class interdictor cruiser, whose High Guard stats were published in DGP's Digest magazine (issue 10 ?) in the late 80's/early 90's...
As far as I can recall, it had a factor 1 black globe, had Jump & maneuver ratings of 5, & was armed with a single spinally mounted factor-S Particle Accelerator weapon.

 

[boomslang]

This reminds me of the Nemesis class interdictor cruiser, whose High Guard stats were published in DGP's Digest magazine (issue 10 ?) in the late 80's/early 90's...
As far as I can recall, it had a factor 1 black globe, had Jump & maneuver ratings of 5, & was armed with a single spinally mounted factor-S Particle Accelerator weapon.

Factor-T PAW, actually.

And the other selling point was the default Jump-3-plus-3 fuel tankage so it could conduct standoff raids.

Architected by Yours Truly, from an original concept by W. Blair Haworth.

I wrote a whole monograph on the Black Globe as stealth technology masquerading as line-of-battle technology, but DGP folded before it ever saw print. I think the Nemesis class ended up as chrome in the The Regency Sourcebook, too... working those Calibration Points against the Zho Menace...

 

[Icosahedron]

I wrote a whole monograph on the Black Globe as stealth technology masquerading as line-of-battle technology, but DGP folded before it ever saw print.

I'd be interested to read that.

 

[Merxiless]

Yeah it's possible. That's my vote.

 

[boomslang]

I'd be interested to read that.

I'm sure I have it archived somewhere; I'll see if I can dig it up and redact only the most sensitive bits for posting (Imperial Edict 129 and all that)...