Attn: Historians of the Rebellion Era (1116-1248)

[Drakon]

On point 1 Drakon, I would agree. To make matters worse for Lemish, the Regency implodes, splintering into several entities due to various issues. By 1248, the Regency end of the "neutral zone" goes further away if anything. The closest rimward known entity to Lemish is the "Gateway Federation" a 7 system polity straddling Subsectors D and H of Deneb sector. It was part of the one way expansion of the Regency in the early 1200's. While considered as success a written in the book, they do have not A class starports, and everything else more powerful is rimward in subsectors C and G of Deneb. Everything else in D and H is Na allegiance. Lemish is not gonna get love there anytime soon.

So, in 1208, there is a treaty that more or less establishes Lemish subsector as a buffer zone. But 40 years later, Vland's been scourged and the Regency has fallen apart. This poses somewhat of a problem for the baronal family if they intend to keep to the imperial way as the last vestages of the Imperium have disappeared. Can any of the neighboring polities validly claim to be legitimate decendants of the 3rd Imperium?

In either event, Lemish gets a brief respite before becoming a war zone again.

Lemish subsector is enjoying the full effects of the Empress Wave by 1248, so no psionic empires are going to be there (in case you were thinking about it).

My calculations says the Empress Wave hits Lemish in 1210. I don't believe there are many telepaths or at least open telepaths in the remaining population, whose by this time have been conquered by the Vargr and slaughtered by the Virus. Besides planetwide nausea, I am not sure that it would be that damaging to the human and vargr population. Does the Empress wave have any effects on Cyms?

Finally, just found this in Sourcebook 3:
"The New Ziru Sirka is active in Corridor, and has fought the Regency for dominance in Corridor, which resulted in a treaty between the two states. However, after the Scouring of Vland and the collapse of the Imperial Regency, the treaty no longer applies. Consequently proxies for the League of Deneb and the New Ziru Sirka continually battle throughout the various pocket empires in Corridor."

There are no UWP's for Corridor sector in 1248. Other than facts presented here, speculate to your heart's content.

I have not gone through the hard time changes for the region. I thought I would get a better handle on the history of the time first. And start all the way from the beginning, during the first Vargr attacks. There is some DGP material I understand is canon, but I don't have access to, that discusses casualties at that time.

Keeping the Imperial flame of civilization alive is going to be difficult.

I am still unclear if the scouts would be allowed to exist, if the Vargr would find them useful enough to allow free passage. I can see an excuse to let them stay but only until 1131 when I feel the entire X-boat network would collapse.

 

[Drakon]

So, at present it looks like this:

1117 Fleet pulls out, Vargr attack, raid, plunder, possibly hang out breifly before moving on to Munhofen, Veu Belle, or even Depot itself. All through 1124 and beyond, the subsector is vargr attacks and wars against each other, primarily the Glory of Taarskoerzn, the Irrgh Manifest and the Vengence of ??? (who were a mercenary gang employed by the Glory, but ended up attacking Depot successfully which threw the politics of the Glory into a tizzy). It sounds more like they would let the humans self rule as long as when it came raiding time, there was something to steal.

Lemish, being an agricultural planet, could fair pretty well during the hards times, at least until the Virus hits in 1131. And even then, besides the kill-crazy farm equipment re-enacting Dulinor's demise all over the place, the survivors shouldn't starve. The collapse of interstellar trade will be problematic.

When the virus hits, there is again widespread death and destruction. Tech level takes another major hit, but being an agricultural planet, the survivors would not have an impossible task. It is possible over the years that more evolved Virus strands would erupt on Lemish. Possibly even Mother, or God or some variant. In addition to the regular Vargr raiders, there will be vampire fleets up until about 1140 or so. Lemish is deep inside, if not the other side of the Deneb quarentine zone. As the Regency and the New Ziru Sirka grow, Lemish becomes a buffer zone to be fought over and in, constantly. So, Vargr, vampire fleets, Regency and NZS all making trade difficult for Lemish, until about 1208. (Or perhaps like Instanbul and Vienna during the Cold War, a playground for spies of all factions.) By 1248, that has all fallen apart, and the NZS and Gateway start scraping with each other again.

Empress Wave hits in 1210, but other than making everyone sick to their stomachs for a day or so, no long term effect registers because of so few active psionics on Lemish, especially after the Vargr raids and Virus attacks.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

So, in 1208, there is a treaty that more or less establishes Lemish subsector as a buffer zone. But 40 years later, Vland's been scourged and the Regency has fallen apart. This poses somewhat of a problem for the baronal family if they intend to keep to the imperial way as the last vestages of the Imperium have disappeared. Can any of the neighboring polities validly claim to be legitimate decendants of the 3rd Imperium?

The ends of time (Interstellar Wars and 1248) are my favorite eras. So....
Depends on how you define legitimate. OK, I will try to keep it short because I am condensing about 120 page into a crash course on 1248 and the rise of the, wait for it...

 

[aramis]

The ends of time (Interstellar Wars and 1248) are my favorite eras. So....
Depends on how you define legitimate. OK, I will try to keep it short because I am condensing about 120 page into a crash course on 1248 and the rise of the, wait for it...

I'm going to remain VERY curious to see your reaction to M1900...

 

[Nathan Brazil]

The 4th Imperium (yep that is what it is called).

Led by Avery Aella Alkhalikoi, son of Strephon (who was the real Strephon as it turns out).

Avery was a child of Strephon and frozen ova stored from Empress Iolanthe. Born after his mother’s assassination, Avery was Strephon’s great hope for the future. - Out of Darkness p. 21

He was also genetically "tweeked" and trained to survive the unspecified effects of the Empress Wave. This the same kid Strephon sends back to the Marches with "Arrival Vengeance" in the year 1126. Kinda sorta ordered by Strephon, Duke Norris gives Avery "a reactivated Azhanti High Lightning class frontier cruiser, now designated a Scout Cruiser and renamed Spirit Hope" (unspecified original tail number) to go find out the about the Empress Wave in 1149. His mission succeed in collecting the intel (everyone knows what it is now), but they got attacked by Virus just 1 jump short of reentering the Regency and protection. This happened after 1154. They went into low berths and spent the next 80 years coasting. He was recovered in 1240. The new Moot elected him Emperor in 1248.
Which is interesting because the 4th Imperium was founded in 1220, capital at Usdiki, and they renouced claim to all systems they did not currently hold which was basically just a few subsectors in Gushemege

Huh? Confused? OK time for history lesson. Try to keep up.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Basically all the contenders for the throne die or get killed, except for Lucan. But he is special and we will get to that.

1128?-1129? In the Domain of Antares, Archduke Bzrk and his governmental staff were killed when the Archducal seat, the space station Cerise, was destroyed by an uncontrolled fusion reaction.
Then VIRUS - each Rebellion group tries to fight Virus of course, but all strategies fail except the Regency.
1130-present day Virus rampages around messing with everyone.
1130's The "Black Curtain" envelops Capital. Anyone trying to go near there never comes back
1138 - The Solomani Confederation continue to factionalize even while under attack by virus. Leadership killed by the genetically enhanced humans who have been in hiding since the Gene War. Confederation gone by 1150.
1145 - Ilelish ceases being an interstellar polity, succumbing to Virus.

Before 1154 - an old Lucan somehow gets his personality uploaded to computers to "help" the Viral Entity in charge of Capital. Lucan tricks and defeats it. Oh, and he learns to replicate....

1154 - Duke Craig offed by Lucan infected fleet. Daibei falls.
1170 - Margaret dies, her faction continues on until "Ilaria, arguably the last Imperial world, fell to a Vampire fleet in late 1189". It is a Lucan fleet.
1195 - Vampire fleets decrease in number and severity. Lucan may be the cause because....

 

[mike wightman]

I've never likes the term 4th Imperium for 1248+ since there is an unbroken line of succession...

 

[GypsyComet]

I've never likes the term 4th Imperium for 1248+ since there is an unbroken line of succession...

Perhaps, but when you have to rebuild territory, infrastructure, and population all from scratch, you may as well bump the counter as well.

 

[Drakon]

The 4th Imperium (yep that is what it is called).

As the only legitimate successor to the 3rd Imperium, this is a bit problematic. The 4th Imperium is all the way around the claw, on the far side of the New Ziru Sirka. And such loyalty might seem problematic considering the neighborhood.

It occurs that some in the Corridor sector may not be all that forgiving of an Imperium that essentially abandoned them to the ravages of the Vargr, as we as actively created the Virus that slaughtered so many people.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

The Imperium would retain much of the structure of the Trade Federation, but would take on the trappings of the Imperium. What it would not have was an Emperor. Instead, the Advisory Council would run the Imperium in the name of the Vacant Throne. This was to be a symbol of the sacrifice of Emperor Strephon, and also a reminder that the Third Imperium lost its way and collapsed. At the time of the Founding, no-one had been found who was suitable to rule and lead the people of the Imperium, and in many quarters it was not felt desirable that anyone ever would be found.- Out of Darkness p. 66

Avery was thought by the general public as long dead. The higher ups in the Regency know of Avery's mission, but he never returned, so they think he is dead too. The 4th is founded 70 years after his presumed death and they purposely distanced themselves, at founding, from the Third Imperium. It is only 28 years after founding after the Second Battle of Gateway Station that Avery is elevated to Emperor. Avery has only been back since 1240.

 

[Drakon]

Avery was thought by the general public as long dead. The higher ups in the Regency know of Avery's mission, but he never returned, so they think he is dead too. The 4th is founded 70 years after his presumed death and they purposely distanced themselves, at founding, from the Third Imperium. It is only 28 years after founding after the Second Battle of Gateway Station that Avery is elevated to Emperor. Avery has only been back since 1240.

There is the whole confusing issue that Strephon allowed a rebellion to spring up over the death of his double. (Okay and wife and daughter and nephew.) And later, Strephon denied his own legitimate claims to the throne. He allowed others to believe that he was a double, in order to prevent bloodshed, but to some, it will appear as cowardice. More importantly, especially to those in the Corridor, Strephon creating doubt about his legitimacy will excuse those who feel dismissive toward any new incarnation of the Imperium. Corridor got abandoned once, denying Avery's legitimacy is not far fetched, and prevents the people of Corridor from being left high and dry again.

Of course, on the other hand, with Margeret, Strephon, Lucan, Dulinor, Norris and the rest, it may not matter. But before the 4th Imperium can even contemplate any kind of relationship with Lemish or Corridor, it needs to deal with the NZS first.

 

[mike wightman]

The rebellion was a civil war, there was an earlier one that didn't result in a re-numbered Imperium and that one ended with a new ruling family on the throne,

During the rebellion era the Imperium is kept going on two fronts - you have the regency preserving the ideals (lol) of the Imperium, and you have cyber-Lucan still in his bit of the still-in-existence Imperium (aside - true crime of the Star Vikings - they used viral weapons and WMDs to finally destroy the Imperium).

So for a while there the only Imperium that is left is the regency - and then Avery comes back on his unicorn and everything is better, the Imperium is back like it was never away and the Imperium springs back as if all those worlds rendered lifeless, all that suffering, all that death is a horrible dream.

(IMTU TNE is set two hundred+ years after the fall, and the eventual outcome is not a 4th Imperium but something very different to 1248)

 

[GypsyComet]

The rebellion was a civil war, there was an earlier one that didn't result in a re-numbered Imperium and that one ended with a new ruling family on the throne.

Because the Civil War's violence was almost entirely within Core Sector, didn't result in a super weapon wiping out 98% of the Imperial populace and development, and produced a clear winner. There is also no evidence that the various Flag Emperors were certifiably insane like Lucan, or ideologically fixated on the idea of killing the village to save it, like Dulinor.

When you burn down a building, even if you then replace it with a duplicate you don't pretend it is the same building.

 

[Drakon]

It is all branding anyway. Whatever the various polities calls themselves or whatever their claim to legitamacy, it is irrelavant and part of the fiction that all polities use to just get people to do what the government requires.

But this side discussion illustrates the challenges that the 1248 mileu present. Granted, out of game, we all know that Strephon's imposter was killed, that Lucan murdered Varian, and that Avery is Strephon's son. However, the way things had been set up, the truth is not readily apparent. Strephon admitted to being a fake. Even if done with the best of intentions, it sows doubt about the legitimacy of any succeeding polity. Any confession of Lucan ends up being delivered by the victors, which makes authentication difficult. And even if Avery were the true descendant of Strephon, and not some manchurian clone cooked up by the regency to sap the New Ziru Sirka, he'd been away from the Imperium for quite some time.

Throughout the Corridor Wilds, there will be a wide disagreement about whether the Imperium, any Imperium, is worth supporting. Which makes an interesting gaming enviroment.

As for Lemish in particular, between the Gateway, NZS and Vargr splinters that survive the Virus, any Imperial claims are going to be all but moot. None of the surrounding polities will accept an outside entity. and at least two of them could have factions proclaiming their polity the "true descendant" of the 3rd Imperium.

 

[aramis]

Note that Avery and Seldrian are about 3th cousins - Since Seldrian shares her DNA with her father (she's a gender-altered clone), she doesn't count as a remove. So... they should be able to run a first level DNA check on Avery and verify that he really is "At least close enough to check the records"...

And it's quite likely that each domain HQ has a record of the Emperor's profile...

 

[Drakon]

Note that Avery and Seldrian are about 3th cousins - Since Seldrian shares her DNA with her father (she's a gender-altered clone), she doesn't count as a remove. So... they should be able to run a first level DNA check on Avery and verify that he really is "At least close enough to check the records"...

And it's quite likely that each domain HQ has a record of the Emperor's profile...

And if you checked the DNA of Strephon against whomever was shot on that fateful day, I am sure they would match as well. Genetic testing will only confirm the DNA, it won't address whether the person is a clone or not, nor who that person is beholding to.

As we are dealing with interstellar politics, the truth doesn't matter. There is sufficient rational doubt in Avery's authenticity, as well as Strephon's death, that any opposition would be pretty effective and gain support. Especially in the Corridor Wilds, as all factions of the 3rd Imperium abandoned Corridor to the Vargr.

Abandoned naval bases full of widows and orphans won't be hotspots of Imperial support, especially once the paychecks stop. Deneb and Vland fighting proxie wars in Corridor won't garner local sympathy, (however public work projects, i.e. handing out money, might win friends). And the release of the Virus will sour many on the whole concept of a new Imperium to begin with.

 

[Drakon]

When you burn down a building, even if you then replace it with a duplicate you don't pretend it is the same building.

No, you proclaim the new building a "New and Improved" version of the original, You call it "Great Building 2" or even better "Great Building II" as roman numerals make things classy. That is if most folks liked the old building. If it's a building nobody liked, then giving it a name evocative of the old facility would be unwise.

Naming is marketing.

 

[aramis]

And if you checked the DNA of Strephon against whomever was shot on that fateful day, I am sure they would match as well. Genetic testing will only confirm the DNA, it won't address whether the person is a clone or not, nor who that person is beholding to.

As we are dealing with interstellar politics, the truth doesn't matter. There is sufficient rational doubt in Avery's authenticity, as well as Strephon's death, that any opposition would be pretty effective and gain support. Especially in the Corridor Wilds, as all factions of the 3rd Imperium abandoned Corridor to the Vargr.

Abandoned naval bases full of widows and orphans won't be hotspots of Imperial support, especially once the paychecks stop. Deneb and Vland fighting proxie wars in Corridor won't garner local sympathy, (however public work projects, i.e. handing out money, might win friends). And the release of the Virus will sour many on the whole concept of a new Imperium to begin with.

Actually, a DNA sequencing already can count the telomeres, and make a pretty good guess as to whether or not said individual is a clone.

We also know from a minor reference (which I'm too lazy to look up) that TRS is NOT a clone; he's a surgically modified body double. Specifically so that his potential to usurp is reduced.

 

[Drakon]

Actually, a DNA sequencing already can count the telomeres, and make a pretty good guess as to whether or not said individual is a clone.

Can't Telomerase be used to bulk up the telomeres?

Also, I have been reading about real world work on 3D printing of organs. It seems to me that being able to print out a complete organism would be feasable within a couple tech levels.

We also know from a minor reference (which I'm too lazy to look up) that TRS is NOT a clone; he's a surgically modified body double. Specifically so that his potential to usurp is reduced.

That would be the smart thing to do. And be less problematic.

But again, the truth doesn't really matter in interstellar politics. It is whether your narrative is believable. Avery may be who he says he is. The opposition has a host of reasons and arguments to deny that truth, and get others to oppose Avery as well. Avery has a good story, but it may not be enough to secure majority support in many parts of the galaxy.

 

[aramis]

Can't Telomerase be used to bulk up the telomeres?

Too early for the results to have been replicated, peer reviewed, and established as accepted. And only don in vitro, so far.

So, plausible, but not proven.

It's likely that the clone will have MORE telomeres, not fewer, than the updated datafile. Unless anagathics are telomere rebuilders.