Attracting New Players..

[kilemall]

Star Citizen, the space combat game, has gotten 87 million plus in crowdfunding and ship pledges (essentially buying the rights to operate a digital ship and equipment when the game goes live), and much to their surprise the majority of players are not interested in shooting so much as exploration and mercantile play.

SC is effectively going to be the computer RPG Traveller should have been.

So I would say the hunger is out there, in very large numbers.

Now the thing about a computer MMORPG is that people can pick it up and play, and drop playing it, on their schedule. Maybe they have a group or team they schedule with, but the game itself IS the GM/ref, so there is a convenience factor that just does not apply.

So we will never likely get exactly that crowd, and you'll always be dealing with people who have scheduling issues for the kind of committment a multisession adventure or campaign requires. Just the reality of our hobby- but it does show the taste is out there, hell with the elves.

There are also people who would play a video game and find that acceptable, but not 'D&D nerds'. Go figure.

I have to agree with the 'sell the story/content not the system' comments.

I would pull the Firefly card early and often, rather then get into the system explain about how Whedon was recreating the Traveller adventure experience. Firefly will get across the play content more quickly and positively then almost anything else you could mention.

I also like the space noir description of Traveller, that is a cool working phrase.

Finally, minis. Nothing gets attention at the local gamatorium like a miniature enviornment, so ship plans and minis.

If your tastes run planetside/striker moreso then boats and buildings, I'd go 10mm and that gets you some very handy small building sets that are specifically scifi, and also you can use N scale train buildings reasonably for those retro earth styling towns.

 

[flykiller]

I think Traveller should embrace modern science fiction technology: post-cyberpunk, transhumanism, singularity, etc.

well, it's one thing to read about such post-human actors in a fixed story. it's another matter altogether for humans to play non-humans in an interactive ongoing game. again, gygax addressed this same issue in explaining why d&d had no monster player characters - because the players are human. can one write about it? sure. can one play it? well ....

one sees the same dynamic at work in the imperial culture thread. "imperial culture is just like ours. what else could it be?" what else, indeed ....

in any case if one is bound and determined to do so then traveller offers ample scope for implementing such post-humans. systems like glisten and rhylanor, or regions like darria, could be homes to entire cybernetic races. go for it.

 

[rancke]

one sees the same dynamic at work in the imperial culture thread. "imperial culture is just like ours. what else could it be?" what else, indeed ....

It could be a lot of other things, as Professor Barker's Tekumel is an example of. The question is, "What else could it be without a major initial investment in worldbuilding and a detailed exposition of the culture?"

Without such a detailed exposition, it can, indeed, be nothing else but pretty close to ours.

Same thing for aliens. To play them differently from humans in rubber suits, you need a detailed explanation of how they differ from humans. And the explanation has to be comprehensible to the players who are going to play the aliens, so they can't be too alien.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

I think Traveller should embrace modern science fiction technology: post-cyberpunk, transhumanism, singularity, etc.

I agree completely, but with the proviso that it should be setting relevant. The rules should be provided to cover such stuff or explain why it isn't a major theme (nano-tech just doesn't work the way most science fantasists think etc)

The problem is, you grognards who have played Traveller since the 80's or before don't seem to like it. Could that be holding back the game from attracting new players? :CoW:

IMTU the players have a maker on their ship that can make any item of equipment they have the schematics for, and by disassembling 'alien' devices can add them to its data base (providing they are of equal or lower TL). Digital assistants, voice recognition and interface with machinery is standard - robots are everywhere they just don't look like robots.

Augmentation may be bought, cybernetic, biological modification take your pick - all you need is the money and the TL.

Adventures still come down to the double dealing middle man selling them out...

 

[rancke]

Digital assistants, voice recognition and interface with machinery is standard - robots are everywhere they just don't look like robots.

But your definition of robot is not the one that is the common SF trope that appears to be the one GDW had in mind when they wrote their robot rules¹. Not just any device controlled by an electronic brain, but an Autonomous Self-propelled Mechanical Entity ('ASME'). And if ASMEs are everywhere, they will be perfectly evident.

¹ I may be wrong about that, I never did read the robot rules closely. But that's the impression I got.​

EDIT: Sorry, I mistakenly used the word 'Automatic'. I meant 'Autonomous'. (Changed above).


Hans

 

[aramis]

once you get past a certain amount of tech, the ability of players to grasp the setting drops..

And at that point, it may be just as well to go to storygames rather than try to emulate with crunchy systems like Traveller. Mike's makers aboard are a case in point of ignored consequences... once you have those, you don't need merchants.

I mean no disrespect, but most of people I see clamoring for the crunchy posthumanism already have been playing it in other ganes (GURPS Transhuman Space or Eclipse Phase). I can understand Mongoose Matt wanting to captuee that market, but he has expressed disdain, if not outright contempt, for Traveller's OTU. He wants to be the new universal system... but universal is seldom good.

 

[flykiller]

one sees the same dynamic at work in the imperial culture thread. "imperial culture is just like ours. what else could it be?" what else, indeed ....

It could be a lot of other things, as Professor Barker's Tekumel is an example of. The question is, "What else could it be without a major initial investment in worldbuilding and a detailed exposition of the culture?"

Without such a detailed exposition, it can, indeed, be nothing else but pretty close to ours.

this illustrates the point very well. here what is being referred to is other human cultures - cultures that have been the norm for humans across the world and throughout our history and that form the basis for our modern versions - as if they were incomprehensible and inaccessible and unplayable. one can only imagine the difficulty of accessing theoretical post-human characters in any coherent manner.

 

[mike wightman]

But your definition of robot is not the one that is the common SF trope that appears to be the one GDW had in mind when they wrote their robot rules¹. Not just any device controlled by an electronic brain, but an Automatic Self-propelled Mechanical Entity ('ASME'). And if ASMEs are everywhere, they will be perfectly evident.

¹ I may be wrong about that, I never did read the robot rules closely. But that's the impression I got.​

Hans

I haven't given you my definition of robot so how would you know...

I will however bite again

compare the original Robots article in GDW written JTAS with the travesty that was the DGP written LBB 8 - the original presents many more types of artificial beings than just the mechanical and gives the true setting intent - borne out by the revelations in T5.

Meanwhile here in the real world a robot is a computer controlled machine - robot factories are everywhere in the industrial nations of the real world. The computer may be running simple software getting a machine to assemble the same parts over and over again, or it can be the flight computer of an autonomous combat vehicle. We will soon have robot taxis on the roads (soon as they work out the insurance issues - the technology is good to go).

 

[rancke]

this illustrates the point very well. here what is being referred to is other human cultures - cultures that have been the norm for humans across the world and throughout our history and that form the basis for our modern versions - as if they were incomprehensible and inaccessible and unplayable. one can only imagine the difficulty of accessing theoretical post-human characters in any coherent manner.

I'm not saying that they are incomprehensible and inaccessible and unplayable. I'm saying that they have not been used to explain Imperial culture. This is an incontrovertible fact. They might have been, but they were not. I don't quite understand why that's so difficult to accept. Imperial culture might have been described as quite different from the culture we, the players and referees, are used to.

But it wasn't..

And since it wasn't described as different from the culture we knew and were familiar with, our own culture by default became the Imperial culture. It didn't have to work out that way, but that's the way it did work out.

Q.E.D.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

The Imperial culture described in the first few adventures and hinted at in the intros to LBB4 and 5 are very different to western democratic culture as we know it. LBB3 even states that Travellers must overcome problems in ways that we wouldn't. As time went by lazy writers were allowed to get away with turning the Imperium into yanks in space, and the setting suffered for it.

Complete reboot - start by detailing a typical core sector and a typical frontier sector, explain what life is like in the TL15 Imperium and how it differs in the frontier regions. Detail the Imperial culture and let referees detail world culture, multiworld alliance, duchies etc.

 

[rancke]

I haven't given you my definition of robot so how would you know...

The fact that you said the robots in YTU didn't look like robots suggested to me that you were not talking about autonomous self-propelled mechanical entities.

compare the original Robots article in GDW written JTAS with the travesty that was the DGP written LBB 8 - the original presents many more types of artificial beings than just the mechanical and gives the true setting intent - borne out by the revelations in T5.

I dug out my Best of JTAS 1-4 and checked. Robots are defined thusly:

"A robot requires a brain, a power plant, a frame or chassis to which the other components are attached and which provides some protection to the delicate workinngs of the robot, a basic sensor package, and some means of moving from one place or another." (Emphasis mine).​

Also:

"Robots should be treated as non-player characters by the referee"​

Meanwhile here in the real world a robot is a computer controlled machine - robot factories are everywhere in the industrial nations of the real world. The computer may be running simple software getting a machine to assemble the same parts over and over again, or it can be the flight computer of an autonomous combat vehicle. We will soon have robot taxis on the roads (soon as they work out the insurance issues - the technology is good to go).

Meranwhile, I'm not talking about the real world. I'm talking about the SF world of Traveller which is based on the classic SF of Anderson, Piper, and all the rest of them. You're not going to get a robotic factory to fit GDW's definition of a robot. A robot taxi might work, if you can believe in one with enough of a brain to qualify as an NPC. But a lot of what in the real world are counted as robots are not the autonomous self-propelled mechanical entities of classic Science Fiction. Nor of Classic Traveller.


Hans

 

[Adam Dray]

Mongoose Traveller does, the Third Imperium does not.
Transhumanism requires a rewrite of a lot of the assumptions of the Third Imperium.

T5 is looking to push into the post singularity realm ... disintegration, intergalactic travel all the TL 20+ stuff that looks like 'magic' at TL 15.
(I have no idea when, I just hear rumors and bits of conversations that say it is coming.)

MGT feels pretty 1985 to me in terms of technology. What in MGT makes you feel like it's fully embracing modern science fiction? (The Virus is TNE only, right? and largely hated by Traveller GMs?)

I don't think Traveller should adopt Transhumanism wholesale, but I'd like to see a whole lot more of it layered on top of the 3I setting.

Obviously, Traveller as-envisioned cannot survive a post-scarcity economy. It's a merchant ship game. But there's more to Transhumanism than post-scarcity, right?

There are other RPGs that embrace the new Sci-Fi tropes, and they are not attracting hoards of new RPG enthusiasts either.
The real competition is not 'Fantasy RPGs' or other 'Sci-Fi RPGs', it is computer games.

I get that. However, I think among new gamers, Traveller could be more competitive because it already has a lot of support and a big player base. The science fiction genre is basically Traveller's to lose.

The SF games that are doing the new hotness? Eclipse Phase comes to mind. Maybe Halcyon (a cyberpunk game). That's about it.

 

[Adam Dray]

Hardly - most of the people playing Sci-Fi I've seen are firmly rejecting those elements. They have very small (and extremely vocal) proponents, bitching about the lack of those elements outside the very, very niche games that have them. They're too weird for most of the people I've seen.

Are most of the people you've seen playing SF old crusty white dudes--that is, part of the demographic we're not worried about attracting more of? The 20-somethings you see playing SF? They're firmly rejecting the new SF elements?

Then again, most people playing in space games aren't playing Sci-Fi, either - they're doing space fantasy like Star Wars and 40K.

True enough. So why doesn't Traveller embrace the science fantasy genre more? We already have some of those elements (psionics).

 

[rancke]

The Imperial culture described in the first few adventures and hinted at in the intros to LBB4 and 5 are very different to western democratic culture as we know it.

What descriptions would that be? I don't recall any real exposition on the subject of Imperial culture. Was the concept even mentioned? How did that Imperial culture differ?

LBB3 even states that Travellers must overcome problems in ways that we wouldn't.

No it doesn't.

Well, maybe it does, but a quick browse through LBB3 failed to spot it. Either a quote or a page reference would be helpful when you draw of the Canon for support of your arguments.

As time went by lazy writers were allowed to get away with turning the Imperium into yanks in space, and the setting suffered for it.

Well, that's one opinion.

Complete reboot - start by detailing a typical core sector and a typical frontier sector, explain what life is like in the TL15 Imperium and how it differs in the frontier regions. Detail the Imperial culture and let referees detail world culture, multiworld alliance, duchies etc.

Sure, go ahead.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

The players themselves have a burden almost equal to that of the referee: they
must move, act, travel in search of their own goals. The typical methods used in life
by 20th century Terrans (thrift, dedication, and hard work) do not work in
Traveller; instead, travellers must boldly plan and execute daring schemes for the
acquisition of wealth and power.

Page 48, LBB3

 

[rancke]

Page 48, LBB3

Thank you.

So, where do I begin? Taken literally, the statement is nonsensical. It speaks of virtues (thrift, dedication, and hard work) that should work just as well in the Far Future as on 20th Century Earth (everywhere on 20th Century Earth).

These virtues do not work in Traveller-the-game because they are boring. Not because they don't actually work in the weird and wonderful (though completely undescribed) Imperial culture. Travellers-the-game-characters must boldly plan and execute daring schemes for the acquisition of wealth and power in order that the players have fun gaming.

In short, it says absolutely nothing about Imperial culture.

Incidentally, thrift, dedication, and hard work doesn't really work all that well when it comes to the acquisition of wealth and power on 20th Century Earth. At least, they comes a good deal behind having a large fortune to start with.


Hans

 

[Highorbit_drifter]

Something similar could be done for MgT. Unfortunately, Regina Startown is set in the RTU (Rebellionless Traveller Universe ) in 1120, so it can't be used as is for the OTU in 1105, but something based on the same principle could easily be written.

I just reread Regina Startown and I don't see why it can't be used almost completely 'as is'. Sure, if you plan to have your players come thru the area again in 15 years game time you'll have to change a few things to make it appear time has pasted, but I don't see anything much time specific in there.

It starts players off with enough info to move forward and not drown them in details.

 

[Highorbit_drifter]

once you get past a certain amount of tech, the ability of players to grasp the setting drops..

Exactly right - this is a problem in any setting, hard SF, fantasy, horror. Dump too much "vitally important setting information" on a player and they aren't playing - they're studying for a test.

I mean no disrespect, but most of people I see clamoring for the crunchy posthumanism already have been playing it in other ganes (GURPS Transhuman Space or Eclipse Phase). I can understand Mongoose Matt wanting to captuee that market, but he has expressed disdain, if not outright contempt, for Traveller's OTU. He wants to be the new universal system... but universal is seldom good.

You can graft posthumanism into Your Traveller Universe, but it won't make a lot of sense. You can take some aspects of Traveller and put them into your posthuman setting and that might work better. Like jump drives. But assumptions of warfare, even character generation, will have to go out the window.

A setting, such as the OTU, is just that - a setting. It defines what the 'flavor' of the campaign is, making assumptions on technology, culture and such. A truly universal system can have psionics, magic and taking cuties ponies - each very good in their own settings. But mix it up and its a mess.

 

[Highorbit_drifter]

Thank you.

So, where do I begin? Taken literally, the statement is nonsensical.

It makes perfect sense. Having memorable adventures requires boldness and daring. Living a responsible life requires hard work, etc. Playing an RPG you are looking for adventure.

Of course you can always just try to make those ship payments by running merchant runs between a cluster of systems. By the CT rules you are going to go broke pretty quick; you are meant to. You SHOULD go out and do something bold and, hopefully, live to earn a reward large enough to pay for the next few months of mortgage payments.

I would not recommend that for your real life house payment.

 

[robject]

Are [the] 20-somethings you see playing SF [the ones who are] firmly rejecting the new SF elements?

[...] So why doesn't Traveller embrace the science fantasy genre more? We already have some of those elements (psionics).

My group used those elements when we weren't crusty. We use them still.

However, the game does not depend on those things.