Automatic Fire

[Narl]

The CT (I'm using TTB) rules say you roll twice to hit if you are using full automatic fire. Is the intent that this can result in two hits? Or just two chances for one hit?

If it is two hits, what is everyone's experience with this rule? Does it make automatic weapons too good? The system seems deadly enough as it is!

I noticed that this rule is not in Snapshot. I may drop it. Thoughts?

 

[aramis]

I found it works fine to do either. Keeping it does tend to reward using automatic weapons.

 

[Supplement Four]

Remember that attacking in CT is abstract. The combat rounds are 15 seconds long, and a character usually gets one abstract combat attack during that time--two attacks if using a shotgun or automatic fire.

Think of AD&D. Combat rounds are one minute in length. A roll of the attack dice represents all of the dodging and feinting, thrusting and parrying. The attack throw is not one attack per actual swing of the arm.

The same is true in CT. It's an abstract concept. About 15 second passes, and a character gets an attack to represent his offensive maneuvers during that round. You can't equate one attack throw to one squeeze of the trigger.

The two attacks associated with shotguns and auto fire don't represent two squeezes of the trigger.

All the two attack throws represent is the increased chance of damage by the attacks taken by the character during that last 15 seconds.

So, if a character fires his revolver at a target during a combat round, he rolls an attack. If his crewmate fires an SMG at the same target, the crewmate rolls two attacks--not to represent two bullets flying through the air--but to abstractly represent the increased chance that a target will be injured from a 4 round fully automatic blast instead of a single shot.



Since autofire is intended to represent greater damage potential, then each attack can result in an abstract "Hit" (which doesn't necessarily mean a bullet pierced the enemy's body).

 

[Supplement Four]

I noticed that this rule is not in Snapshot. I may drop it. Thoughts?

Didn't believe you. Looked it up. Found out something I didn't know (or forgot long ago). The most detail is given under the Special Rules for Group Hits by Full Auto Weapons.

Neat alternate rule for CT.

 

[mike wightman]

Just to play devil's advocate :CoW:

Remember that attacking in CT is abstract. The combat rounds are 15 seconds long, and a character usually gets one abstract combat attack during that time--two attacks if using a shotgun or automatic fire.

Don't believe you so i looked stuff up

Think of AD&D. Combat rounds are one minute in length. A roll of the attack dice represents all of the dodging and feinting, thrusting and parrying. The attack throw is not one attack per actual swing of the arm.

Don't think of AD&D under any circumstance. AD&D has a 1 minute combat round and specifically states everything is abstracted, CT does not.
One shot is one pull of the trigger and one or four rounds are fired.

The same is true in CT. It's an abstract concept. About 15 second passes, and a character gets an attack to represent his offensive maneuvers during that round. You can't equate one attack throw to one squeeze of the trigger.

Then how come one attack uses one bullet? One burst uses four?

The two attacks associated with shotguns and auto fire don't represent two squeezes of the trigger.

Then why do you track ammo? And why do the weapon descriptions give the number of rounds fired per pull of the trigger?

All the two attack throws represent is the increased chance of damage by the attacks taken by the character during that last 15 seconds.

Your conclusion based on a flawed hypothesis and not backed up by tracking ammo use

So, if a character fires his revolver at a target during a combat round, he rolls an attack. If his crewmate fires an SMG at the same target, the crewmate rolls two attacks--not to represent two bullets flying through the air--but to abstractly represent the increased chance that a target will be injured from a 4 round fully automatic blast instead of a single shot.

And the revolver has used one bullet, the smg 4.

Since autofire is intended to represent greater damage potential, then each attack can result in an abstract "Hit" (which doesn't necessarily mean a bullet pierced the enemy's body).

If this were true ammo use would be abstracted, it isn't.

 

[robject]

Just to play devil's advocate :CoW:
[...]
If this were true ammo use would be abstracted, it isn't.

Maybe it is, and one "bullet" represents more than one actual "bullet" :devil:

 

[mike wightman]

The weapon descriptions specify number of cartridges or rounds, the wording changes from weapon to weapon.

The weapon descriptions in LBB4 are even more specifically not abstracted.

 

[Supplement Four]

Your conclusion based on a flawed hypothesis and not backed up by tracking ammo use

Ah...the old ammo use defense, eh?

You agree that AD&D combat is abstract, yes? OK, isn't ammo tracked when it is used in that game? A sword doesn't have ammo, but a bow sure does. And, in that 1 minute abstract combat round, how many times can a bow be "fired" or used to attack? Twice. It uses two arrows. For darts, it's three attacks.

It's a combination of ammo tracking and the abstract combat round.



Consider further: Let put to AC 10 (naked) characters as targets for archers. The same archer fires at both characters. One target has 50 hit points. The other target has 2.

One arrow attack, doing 1d6 damage hits each target, and damaged rolled is 3 hit points.

Up to this point, everything is the same. Except when we see the damage. Is the target that is reduced from 50 hit points to 47 HP even considered to be struck by the arrow? We don't know. It's abstract.

The other target, though, is killed, reduced to -1 HP, by the single arrow shot. Thus, an indication is received from the abstract system that something factual happened during the combat.





The exact same type of thinking is used in Classic Traveller combat.

In real life, can't we expect an archer to loose more than two arrows per minute, on average? Absolutely.

In real life, can't a person with a revolver fire more than one bullet in 15 seconds? Absolutely.

What you see here is a game rule that tries to bridge reality (how much ammo tracking) with an abstract combat round (the number of attacks per combat round).



Take the AD&D archer example above: Let put to AC 10 (A Traveller character with no armor with the same DMs on the attack throw) characters as targets for archers. The same archer (gunman) fires at both characters. One target has 50 hit points (physical stats FFF). The other target has 2 (physical stats 222).

One arrow attack (revolver attack), doing 1d6 damage hits each target (3D damage), and average damage rolled is 3 hit points (average damage rolled is 10 points).

Up to this point, everything is the same. Except when we see the damage. Is the target that is reduced from 50 hit points to 47 HP (all damage taken on one stat, physicals are now 5FF) even considered to be struck by the arrow? We don't know. It's abstract.

The other target, though, is killed, reduced to -1 HP, by the single arrow shot (reduced from 222 to 000). Thus, an indication is received from the abstract system that something factual happened during the combat.



As you can see, relying on ammo counting does not make a system not abstract. Any abstract combat system can say that X amount of ammo is used per round. In fact, that's exactly one of the things I think the abstract T5 system needs--a rule that applies ammo counting to the abstract system.

 

[Supplement Four]

RE: Abstract Combat Rounds


What you've got to remember is that the first RPGs were extensions of the war game. War games are abstract simulations. One unit of 50 British Longbowmen moves X amount of spaces, and an attack throw is made for the entire unit. Any damage is taken off of the target unit of French invaders.

It's all abstract combat meant to simulate the experience.

The first RPGs, D&D/AD&D and Traveller among the earliest, based combat on the same model, except that the scale was paired down from units of multiple troops to a single character.

Still, the combat round retained its abstract nature.

In AD&D, a Fighter rolls an attack once per one minute combat round, and that one attack represents all of his swings and thrusts, dodges and parries, even his successful hits--which can be multiple. When the character gets more skilled as a higher level character, he is given two attack throws per round to simulate the greater chance that the more experienced fighter will wear down and damage his foe.

This exact same thinking applies to Classic Traveller and the AutoFire rule. One attack is given for single shot for a revolver, but if an SMG is used, two attacks are allowed to simulate the greater chance that all that lead that is spit out by the SMG will result in a wound on the target. The same thought is used for the shotgun rule.

In CT, ammo might be counted (like ammo for ranged weapons in AD&D), but when an attack from an SMG hits and damages a target, does that mean that all four bullets from the attack hit the target? Does it mean at least one bullet hit the target? There are no rules for this. It is lost in the abstraction. The "fact" becomes whatever the GM describes.





It's hard for reality-minded players to accept that only two arrows can be let loose per one minute combat round, or that a revolver can only be fired once per 15 seconds. This is why, as time wears on and more game additions come out, we see the length of the abstract combat round shrink. It's a lot easier to accept that a revolver can be fired once per six seconds than it is once per 15 seconds (and other rules are being used that allow multiple attacks during the same combat round).

But, back in the day, games had longer combat rounds. AD&D used the one minute combat round. Classic Traveller uses the 15 second combat round.

Both combat rounds represent abstract combat. That's the way it was, back then.

 

[mike wightman]

Apples with oranges :devil:

You are using AD&D to explain CT - doesn't really work since there are different assumptions between the two combat resolution systems.

AD&D is abstract, CT is not (as much )

One shot is one bullet or burst. if it is abstract as you say then ammo would be abstract too by necessity - just like in T5

Just because AD&D got its ammo use wrong doesn't mean CT did too.

 

[Supplement Four]

Apples with oranges :devil:

You are using AD&D to explain CT - doesn't really work since there are different assumptions between the two combat resolution systems.

I used AD&D because it can usually be used as a common point of reference. Most people understand AD&D and its abstract combat round.

One shot is one bullet or burst. if it is abstract as you say then ammo would be abstract too by necessity - just like in T5

You are arguing levels of abstraction.

If CT isn't abstract, then answer these four questions...



1. When the attack roll for an SMG hits its target, how many wounds does the target take? We know 4 bullets were fired in the burst. Do all four bullets hit the target, creating four separate wounds? How is this reconciled if not in an abstract fashion?



2. The combat round is 15 seconds long. Why is it a person can only fire a semi-automatic pistol once per 15 seconds (when, in reality, we know the trigger can be pulled, with accuracy, by a skilled shooter at a rate of at least 1 second per shot)?



3. When a hit is scored on the attack roll, but the damage result is that none of the target's physicals are reduced to 0 or lower, has the target suffered a gunshot wound? (If say, "Graze", then, I'll ask you if you think the probability of grazing a target in combat (really high in CT) is realistic or abstract).



4. If a target his hit, and damage makes one stat go to zero, is that a gunshot wound? Is it a graze?

Just because AD&D got its ammo use wrong doesn't mean CT did too.

So, you'd argue that firing a Glock 19 should be one shot per 15 seconds? Look at the video time while watching this: Carolina Cup IDPA Competition

 

[mike wightman]

Supp 4 I have to say a big thank you

Thanks to looking stuff up to discuss this I have rediscovered rules I haven't considered for ages.

Drawing weapons - a simple initiative system

Panic fire - emptying the mag but get extra attacks (LBB4)

Action Points from Snapshot rather than AHL (I think the former integrates better with CT)

 

[mike wightman]

1. When the attack roll for an SMG hits its target, how many wounds does the target take? We know 4 bullets were fired in the burst. Do all four bullets hit the target, creating four separate wounds? How is this reconciled if not in an abstract fashion?

You hit with one bullet from the 4, firing 4 is increasing your chance to hit with at least one bullet hence the increased chance to hit on the combat matrix. You take 3d of damage.

2. The combat round is 15 seconds long. Why is it a person can only fire a semi-automatic pistol once per 15 seconds (when, in reality, we know the trigger can be pulled, with accuracy, by a skilled shooter at a rate of at least 1 second per shot)?

You can empty the magazine and roll to hit 3 times at a penalty of -2. Don't you just love the way the CT combat system is spread between books
Note that if you use Snapshot's AP mechanics an average character can get 3 snapshots per 15 minute round.

3. When a hit is scored on the attack roll, but the damage result is that none of the target's physicals are reduced to 0 or lower, has the target suffered a gunshot wound? (If say, "Graze", then, I'll ask you if you think the probability of grazing a target in combat (really high in CT) is realistic or abstract).

Yes, they have been wounded. Plenty of people get shot and suffer penetrating hits that only cause soft tissue damage or minor bleeding, they are definitely wounded a lot more than the hollywood hero graze, but in the adrenalin rush of combat they often don't notice.

4. If a target his hit, and damage makes one stat go to zero, is that a gunshot wound? Is it a graze?

You are inventing a term that is not used in the game. A gunshot wound, any wound, can reduce characteristics, reduce a characteristic to 0, reduce two characteristics to zero or reduce all three to zero.

So, you'd argue that firing a Glock 19 should be one shot per 15 seconds?

Nope, getting into position to fire an aimed shot while avoiding being shot myself may take 15 seconds. Note that in competition shooting nothing is shooting back, competitors may be running from cover to cover and pulling the trigger lots, but if they were being shot at their priorities would change.

If I just poke the gun around the corner and pull the trigger I can empty it, but it'll be dumb luck if I hit anything.

I will agree that the combat actions you can take are abstracted unless you use an add on game like Snapshot. During the 15 second combat round your movement and aiming are abstracted, number of shots are not.

There is a pretty easy way to adapt Snapshot to CT without all the AP tracking. Plus variants on that theme.

 

[Supplement Four]

Thanks to looking stuff up to discuss this I have rediscovered rules I haven't considered for ages.

Yep, good stuff in there. It's been a long while since I've looked at it all, too.

You hit with one bullet from the 4, firing 4 is increasing your chance to hit with at least one bullet hence the increased chance to hit on the combat matrix.

So...every hit...EVERY SINGLE HIT...no matter the range or combat conditions, is always only one bullet from a burst.

Never two bullets so near each other that they'd be one wound? Or four bullets, all hit, spread across the torso, neck, and shoulder?

You don't think this is...um...ABSTRACT?

No where, in any CT supplement, are there rules for determining each bullet hit.

It's abstract.

You can empty the magazine and roll to hit 3 times at a penalty of -2. Don't you just love the way the CT combat system is spread between books

You're talking Panic Fire from Book 4? If not, cite your rule, please.

BTW, I thought this was a base CT (Traveller Book, Starter Traveller, LBBs 1-3), but brining in other books for reference is OK with me.

Note that if you use Snapshot's AP mechanics an average character can get 3 snapshots per 15 minute round.

Yes, but that's a totally different game. Interesting how it conflicts with LBB 1, though, huh?

Yes, they have been wounded. Plenty of people get shot and suffer penetrating hits that only cause soft tissue damage or minor bleeding, they are definitely wounded a lot more than the hollywood hero graze, but in the adrenalin rush of combat they often don't notice.

But...what does "wounded" mean?

I think you'll find that it's abstract. Could mean a bullet wound. Could mean something else.

It's abstract.

I tend to consider a Serious Wound (two stats at zero) as representing a gunshot wound, but that's just my Ref interpretation. Since it is abstract, it's not really defined in the rules.

Nope, getting into position to fire an aimed shot while avoiding being shot myself may take 15 seconds. Note that in competition shooting nothing is shooting back, competitors may be running from cover to cover and pulling the trigger lots, but if they were being shot at their priorities would change.

So, in other words, since no one is shooting back, a guess was taken to the average number of times an AutoPistol could be used per round.

In still other words, it has been abstracted that an AutoPistol will fire once per 15 seconds. Just like Gygax & Co. abstracted that, with everything going on during a battle, archers should be able to fire two arrows per minute.

 

[mike wightman]

CT combat isn't that it is abstracted, it is it is over simplified

You call this abstraction, I call it simplification.

Wounding is simplified to damaging characteristics - it is possible to complicate this by adding descriptions for what the wound represents.

A four round burst fired at just one target rather than spraying an area can roll to hit twice, a ten round burst three times - you have to find that in LBB4 too.

 

[Supplement Four]

CT combat isn't that it is abstracted, it is it is over simplified

You call this abstraction, I call it simplification.

Wounding is simplified to damaging characteristics - it is possible to complicate this by adding descriptions for what the wound represents.

A four round burst fired at just one target rather than spraying an area can roll to hit twice, a ten round burst three times - you have to find that in LBB4 too.

ABSTRACT from dictionary.com

1. thought of apart from concrete realities, specific objects, or actual instances: an abstract idea.

2. expressing a quality or characteristic apart from any specific object or instance, as justice, poverty, and speed.

3. theoretical; not applied or practical: abstract science.

4. difficult to understand; abstruse: abstract speculations.



Wouldn't you say that these definitions apply nicely to our discussion?

It is speculated that a revolver can be operated in combat about as many times as a semi-auto pistol, and that rate should be once per 15 seconds.

It is difficult to understand (thus our conversation here!) that an attack roll for a revolver seems to represent a pull of the trigger. But, two attack rolls are allowed for one pull of the trigger of an SMG. Then again, two attack rolls are allowed for the single pull of a shotgun using shot ammo at a target at Short Range (but not Long Range). And, if we're using Book 4, then LMGs are allowed three attack rolls per pull of the trigger.

Isn't it apart from concrete realities that a target wound may or may not be a bullet hit after successful attacks? Or, if we go with Mike's interpretation, that only one bullet of four will hit from burst, no matter what--that there is no example possible of all four bullets from a burst hitting a target?

Why?

Because the CT combat rules are abstract. Or...you could say that many aspects of the CT combat rules are abstract where as other aspects (the length of a round, the number of bullets fired) is less abstracted.

(Because even the number of rounds fired in an automatic burst are abstracted to 4 bullets per burst....when we know, in the real world, that many weapons have 3 round bursts, like the M-16).

 

[mike wightman]

So...every hit...EVERY SINGLE HIT...no matter the range or combat conditions, is always only one bullet from a burst.

By the rules as written yup. realistic? No. Speeds up play so you aren't rolling for every bullet? Yup (oops - does this mean abstraction )

Never two bullets so near each other that they'd be one wound? Or four bullets, all hit, spread across the torso, neck, and shoulder?

You don't think this is...um...ABSTRACT?

No where, in any CT supplement, are there rules for determining each bullet hit.

It's abstract.

It's simplified...

You're talking Panic Fire from Book 4? If not, cite your rule, please.

BTW, I thought this was a base CT (Traveller Book, Starter Traveller, LBBs 1-3), but brining in other books for reference is OK with me.

Is it possible to find all the CT rules for resolving anything just in the basic 3 books

Yes, but that's a totally different game. Interesting how it conflicts with LBB 1, though, huh?

No conflict, just an extra level of detail that require more time to play out.

But...what does "wounded" mean?

It means that someone has poked a hole in you with a very fast, hot piece of metal

I think you'll find that it's abstract. Could mean a bullet wound. Could mean something else.

It's abstract.

Simplified.

I tend to consider a Serious Wound (two stats at zero) as representing a gunshot wound, but that's just my Ref interpretation. Since it is abstract, it's not really defined in the rules.

I use something I found in a DGP digest:

Str - damage to musculature/skeleton
End - damage to circulatory system/major organs
Dex - damage to nervous system/sense organs

So, in other words, since no one is shooting back, a guess was taken to the average number of times an AutoPistol could be used per round.

In still other words, it has been abstracted that an AutoPistol will fire once per 15 seconds. Just like Gygax & Co. abstracted that, with everything going on during a battle, archers should be able to fire two arrows per minute.

Nope, using their experience of fighting in a real war the designers decided that being able to get off one aimed shot per 15 seconds is pretty realistic for a combat rather than target range situation. What they didn't do was provide rules for coolness under fire (T:2k) or provide the options for panic firing, or firing while moving etc.

 

[mike wightman]

Remember I kicked all of this off by saying - playing devil's advocate

You are right of course, simplified (my term) and abstract (yours) are pretty much the same thing as far as this discussion goes.

CT, even with rules taken from Snapshot (a bit like you have to use Mayday to fill in the gaps for LBB2 ship combat) and Mercenary, makes the mistake of abstracting much, while not abstracting the key thing in a gunfight - how many times can you pull the trigger.

It does need fixing - Rob's suggestion that one 'shot' actually represents several bullets.

But that brings you to T5 territory where ammo capacity isn't tracked since it is abstract.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm about done with the discussion (sounds like I'm upset with Mike, but I'm not...we're just talking here), because I believe I've been clear on the point. And, I believe in my argument.

Mike seems to believe in his side too, and we haven't convinced each other. You can lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink, and all that. I'm sure Mike feels the same about his side of the discussion.

But, to wrap up...

By the rules as written yup. realistic? No. Speeds up play so you aren't rolling for every bullet? Yup (oops - does this mean abstraction )

The way you are using "simplified", you could easily just drop in the word "abstraction".

Is it possible to find all the CT rules for resolving anything just in the basic 3 books

I believe that the rules say, "It's up to the Ref."

No conflict, just an extra level of detail that require more time to play out.

Fair. We're on the same page, here.

It means that someone has poked a hole in you with a very fast, hot piece of metal

Really? Doesn't say that anywhere in the rules. And, look at the effects. If you are on a TL 6 world, and you are wounded, the local doctor can take a look at you. You will be COMPLETELY healed in half an hour.

Does that sound like being "wounded" means that someone has poked a hole in you with a very fast, hot piece of metal?

Not to me. It takes longer to be completely healed from the damage you describe. Therefore, logic tells us that "wounded" can be some type of damage that is less than a gunshot wound.

I use something I found in a DGP digest:

Str - damage to musculature/skeleton
End - damage to circulatory system/major organs
Dex - damage to nervous system/sense organs

Yep. Seen it. Don't use it myself. Doesn't mean I won't in the future. We should keep the discussion to official GDW CT rules, though. Opening up ideas from other publishers opens a whole new can of worms on many levels.

Nope, using their experience of fighting in a real war the designers decided that being able to get off one aimed shot per 15 seconds is pretty realistic for a combat rather than target range situation.

HERE IS SOME VIDEO OF REAL COMBAT IN AFGHANISTAN. Watch the clock, and notice the soldiers firing their weapons on single shot. They shoot much more than once per 15 seconds. Even the the soldier firing his grenade launcher fires it twice within that period.




EDIT: Didn't see the above when I was writing this post!

 

[Supplement Four]

It does need fixing - Rob's suggestion that one 'shot' actually represents several bullets.

I don't think so. I just accept the abstraction, the way I do in AD&D. When a hit is made, it doesn't mean the target was shot. I look at the damage applied to him. If the target takes damage that doesn't lower any stat past zero, then I may describe how the bullets (or bullet) slammed into the wall next to him and shredded him with rock shrapnel. If the target has two stats at zero, then, yeah, the dude was shot.

I think the CT game is balanced the way it is. It's lethal enough. We don't need to make the game so realistic that PCs are likely to die in combat (in CT, they are likely to be rendered unconscious if hit). The game needs to be fun as well as serve the suspension of disbelief.

In the past, I've considered changing the length of the combat round, or allowing multiple attacks for single shot weapons. But, I think that would make the game too deadly. Remember, there's always a greater number of NPC bad guys than ever there are PCs.

I'm not saying a PC shouldn't be put at risk during combat. Far from that. What I am saying is that I think the CT game, as is, is a good middle ground to use for exciting combat that is a fairly reasonable match to the action picture in our heads when we play the game (notice I didn't say it's a match for reality).

I easily accept the abstraction in d20 games (like my current Conan game), and accepting the level of abstraction in CT is not a problem for me, either.